[Closed] This SNP rout.....

Define Scottish. I was born in Glasgow and have lived here all my life, but neither parent was born in Scotland.

Apologies for the obvious Troll. I was trying to get a rise.

I wasn't aware that I was.

You appeared to be assuming I was some Southerner who had been to Inverness once on a coach trip.

After living and working in Scotland for a number of years, I feel I have quite a good understanding of Scottish culture.

I still don't understand where you're going with this argument. You seem to be saying that even though Scotland elected a pro-immigrant party we only did that because we have relatively few immigrants, that'll change if we have lots more immigrants, therefore Scotland is becoming insular. Is that it in summary?

Point of order: It was the people who were resident in scotland and eligible to vote who decided which is not the same thing as the majority of Scots
It was not a vote of scots but of the people eligible to vote in Scotland. they are not the same thing.

What?
Why do you come out with nonsense like this?
Are you suggesting that there are more Scots living outside Scotland than within it?
Besides, if you don't want to live in the UK why should you decide it's future?
Or are you suggesting that all the Aussies, Canadians and Americans who are of Scottish descent counts as "Scots"?

Is that it in summary?

My point about UKIP was that it is a red herring to hold it up to show what a Workers Utopia you want to create.

As I have argued with you before, if Scotland got independence, I would expect quite a strong right wing party to come into existence.

Look at how strong the Freemasons in Scotland are, hardly a beacon of progressive thinking?

The tories already exist in Scotland dspite popular belief! 😆

As I have argued with you before, if Scotland got independence, I would expect quite a strong right wing party to come into existence.

We've already got several 😉

The makeup of Holyrood is much more balanced than the General Election result. And that's a good thing. If we were independent I highly doubt I'd be voting SNP, I could vote Green and it would actually make a difference.

A lot of people in Scotland wanted their own parliament and they got one. The same with the referendum. They want more powers and they are getting them as well. Wales and Northern Ireland have devolved powers, London has devolved powers, Greater Manchester is also getting devolved powers. With all this increasing devolved power just how westminster dominated/centric is the UK government.
In England we also don't have a English parliament so we are reliant on the Westminster system to represent our needs.
The SNP need to deliver now for the people of Scotland and will have more than enough power to do so.

fasternotfatter - Member

The SNP need to deliver now for the people of Scotland and will have more than enough power to do so.

If they don't deliver I hope people don't blame it on Westminster.

fasternotfatter - Member
If they don't deliver I hope people don't blame it on Westminster.

Deliver what? There's a Tory majority.

bencooper - Member
Deliver what? There's a Tory majority.

They also need to take what ever powers the tories will give us and use them well.

They are in government in Scotland, so they aren't powerless.

Indeed....they have no power in Westminster. All they can do is make a lot of noise!

The SNP need to work for their constituencies on a local level better than the previous labour candidates have.

Oh, absolutely, they need to be held to that. But we also need to recognise that the Tories can now do pretty much whatever they like. Theoretically they could abolish the Scottish parliament if they wanted to.

bencooper - Member
Oh, absolutely, they need to be held to that. But we also need to recognise that the Tories can now do pretty much whatever they like.

On that last part, the noise they make in westminster will be important, and not without influence.

The BS from salmond continues today. You have a parliament, increased developed powers (often unused), the benefits of being part of a Union, preferential treatment v-a-v other parts of the UK, and seats in Westminster that bear little resemblance to the % of votes cast. But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.

Blimey, do the rUK need to eat your oatcakes too?

Hopefully coverage of the Holyrood elections will be kept local if this is the standard of debate.

The BS from salmond continues today. You have a parliament, increased developed powers (often unused), the benefits of being part of a Union, preferential treatment v-a-v other parts of the UK, and seats in Westminster that bear little resemblance to the % of votes cast. But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.

Diddums. Was your vote for UKIP wasted then?

The SNP need to deliver now for the people of Scotland and will have more than enough power to do so.

If they don't deliver I hope people don't blame it on Westminster.

If for example Westminster slashes the Scotland budget by say 50% I dont think the SNP will be blamed for any failure to deliver.

Devolved power to Scotland is part of the Westminster Model. The union is only failing in the eyes of people who want to run Scotland down. Scotland is a great place and is doing very nicely, especially when compared to other parts of the UK or even other parts of England.
It has it's own government with more powers coming and more than enough freedom to control the direction it goes in.
The Barnett formula is staying so there is no need to start your own project fear about the Scottish budget being slashed by 50%. 😉

bencooper - Member
Define Scottish. I was born in Glasgow and have lived here all my life, but neither parent was born in Scotland

English just like your dad 😛

Rockape63 - Member

Indeed....they have no power in Westminster. All they can do is make a lot of noise!

which will turn in to media headlines and more votes in the scottish elections 😉

But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.

You don't quite understand the principle of MPs representing the people who elected them, do you? Bless. Of course the SNP are going to fight for Scotland, that's what we elected them for!

I know we used to send nice compliant Labour MPs to Westminster who would then do what their whips told them to do. Sorry, no more.

English just like your dad

**** off. 😛

teamhurtmore - Member
The BS from salmond continues today. You have a parliament, increased developed powers (often unused), the benefits of being part of a Union, preferential treatment v-a-v other parts of the UK, and seats in Westminster that bear little resemblance to the % of votes cast. But no, this is not enough, the downtrodden need and deserve more.

Blimey, do the rUK need to eat your oatcakes too?

Hopefully coverage of the Holyrood elections will be kept local if this is the standard of debate.

seosamh I think THM has failed to fully grasp the nature of "adversarial politics" which is a corner stone of the British political system. He obviously feels that all non-Tory MPs should simply fall into line with a Tory government.

Which is strange because he seems quite a bright lad in many ways.

You don't quite understand the principle of MPs representing the people who elected them, do you? Bless. Of course the SNP are going to fight for Scotland, that's what we elected them for!

I know we used to send nice compliant Labour MPs to Westminster who would then do what their whips told them to do. Sorry, no more.

In the same way as Scottish MPs will be held to task by Sturgeon, Swinney and Smug Face...... ie The SNP cult/dictatorship.

A lot of people seem to be getting MSPs and MPs confused!! Westminster will eat a lot of our "new" MPs for breakfast as it has done in the past 🙄

Scotland has a problem at Hollyrood. There has been years of wasted time on Devolution followed rapidly by more party time on this election and it starts all over again with next years Scottish elections! Not much time/effort being put into running the country by MSPs as far as I can see.

Now if they could deliver/reinstate the Paddy Line ie the rail link from Dumfries to Stranraer and get all the Irish ferry traffic off the A75 that would be a good start 💡 Alternatively a dual carriage way.

I agree Trekster. The SNP need to spend less time talking down Scotland and the UK and more time actually using the powers they have been given.

I still don't understand how a party got near 50.9% of the seats with only near 36.9% of actual votes cast.

Well I do but I don't want to.

Put another way over 63% of voters didn't want the Tories in power

NB: my maths is dodgy .. using figures from top 3 search results on google .. i.e. not heavily researched

[apologies if all of this has been covered before]

Now if they could deliver/reinstate the Paddy Line ie the rail link from Dumfries to Stranraer and get all the Irish ferry traffic off the A75 that would be a good start Alternatively a dual carriage way.

Now then, remind who was it got rid of the Paddy Line? Tories per chance?

Now if they could deliver/reinstate the Paddy Line ie the rail link from Dumfries to Stranraer and get all the Irish ferry traffic off the A75 that would be a good start Alternatively a dual carriage way.

This would help the traffic flow in the area a huge amount, but the chances of a dual carriageway all the way to Stranraer? None, I'd of thought. Especially given how long it's taken and will take to get the A9 done.

more time actually using the powers they have been given.

Apart from the deliberately useless tax powers, which powers haven't they been using that you suggest they use?

I still don't understand how a party got near 50.9% of the seats with only near 36.9% of actual votes cast. Well I do but I don't want to. Put another way over 63% of voters didn't want the Tories in power

1997 Labour won 43.2% of votes and 63% of seats
2001 Labour won 40.7% votes and 62% seats
2005 Labour won 35.2% votes and 55% seats
2010 Conservatives won 36.1% of votes and 47% seats

As far as I am concerned, anyone turning round now and crying crocodile tears that the system is unfair because the Tories won this time can get stuffed, they weren't complaining last time!

You can always look at it another way - this year we have seen a combined 'right wing' vote (Tory 36.9 UKIP 12.6 and DUP/UUP 1%) of 50.5% take a total of 52% of seats!

Apart from the deliberately useless tax powers, which powers haven't they been using that you suggest they use?

They have been devoting all of their time and attention to splitting up the UK. It is time for them to actually get on with running Scotland!

They have been devoting all of their time and attention to splitting up the UK. It is time for them to actually get on with running Scotland!

So, there's no powers that you think they should of been using, but haven't been. Great.

You can look on it as splitting up the UK if you like, or just removing Scotland from it, but either way, it was a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum, and they did. They've been implementing that stuff they said they would. Hard to complain too much about that.

ernie_lynch - Member
Which is strange because he seems quite a bright lad in many ways.

For a guy who likes to throw "patronising" accusations around, that is quite amusing!!!! Almost a classic. 😉

They have been devoting all of their time and attention to splitting up the UK. It is time for them to actually get on with running Scotland!

That the SNP has a majority in th Scottish Parliament in a system specifically designed to stop majority governments and for them to return 56 from 59 MPs in Scotland suggests that the people who have the ability to vote for the SNP actually think they're doing a good job of running the country. To be fair though, there isn't much opposition at the moment.

I can do patronising THM. I would have expected a smart bloke like you to have figured that out. Perhaps I over estimated you?

But anyway, are you still confused about what "adversarial politics" actually involves ?

If you can clear up the confusion you might be able to understand why Alex Salmond takes a confrontational attitude towards a Tory government, and it won't come as such a surprise to you 💡

ninfan - Member

As far as I am concerned, anyone turning round now and crying crocodile tears that the system is unfair because the Tories won this time can get stuffed, they weren't complaining last time!

I bloody was, and so were lots of other people. FPTP is shit regardless of whether you're currently benefitting from it. This time, the party I like the least suffered most from it, and the party I voted for gained the second most from it (*), I'm still against it.

(* you might say the SNP gained the most from it, mathematically, but the Tories gained a majority government)

[quote=Northwind ](* you might say the SNP gained the most from it, mathematically, but the Tories gained a majority government)

Ah, you'd have preferred a Con/UKIP/DUP coalition? 😉

On which thought, I've checked back and this election is the first since 1959 where Labour and the Liberals (or their descendants) combined haven't got more than 50% of the popular vote - obviously even adding on SNP to the "coalition" wouldn't get them there.

aracer - Member

Ah, you'd have preferred a Con/UKIP/DUP coalition?

Absolutely- I'd prefer a democratic result even if it's one I don't like. Though, it doesn't follow that would be the outcome- fptp distorts voting greatly. But yes, a coalition like that wouldn't have the singlemindedness and capability that the tories will have for the next while, or the stability or the sense of divine right

ernie_lynch - Member
I can do patronising THM.

Indeed.

Absolutely- I'd prefer a democratic result even if it's one I don't like.

+1

Far too many unrepresented voters out there. Even If I think they are all gits.

There's an awful lot of support within the Conservative party to re-evaluate the Barnett formula. I don't think its that likely, as Cameron doesn't want to completely alienate the Scots, but they could certainly do it and the SNP would have no power to stop it.

I'd be interested to know what the SNP leadership thinks of the result, on the one hand five years of Conservative majority rule, increased austerity and very possibly an exit from the EU, will almost certainly see support for independence increase, but on the other hand the SNP now have no chance of another independence referendum, and no power to negotiate a better deal for Scotland. If they'd got in with Labour they could have had UK-wide influence, might have had enough sway to get another referendum, but would probably have seen support for independence drop.

@pleaderwilliams difficult to see how the snp can be anything other than delighted with their result winner's in all but 3 of the seats they contested.They will require a different approach to the Tory majority government obviously but I believe that Labour in Scotland was perceived to be an ineffective voice in Westminster failing to represent constituents and also Labour under Miliband and Balls is perceived to be virtually indistinguishable from the Tories

At least Nicola made a pretence is morning* at distancing herself from the deceitful one who is still forgetting that most Scots voted against independence. Wake up. This one was about anti-austerity (sic) and about preventing the nasty Tories. People can judge for themselves re the success of this one. Perhaps that was one thing Millhand got right,

* is the neo-1980s sloney phoney dress sense coming back. The shoulders, the bow - only the pearls and Alice band are missing!

Is this a shift in your obsession from Salmond to Sturgeon THM?. You need to get out more.

Judging by the facial expressions and head movements, are they not the same person!! Your right though, dog walk, bike ride, cutting grass, exam tutoring. Busy day ahead really.

cheer up, you got a majority in Westminster.

Who is the "you" in that point?

Who is the "you" in that point?

The Tories. Haven't you about the Tory majority ?

Have you been at the dopey juice ? 🙂

Just going back to the responses to my anti-English point yesterday the BBC had a few interviews with members of the public yesterday who said keeping the SNP out of a coalition was a key factor in their voting, certainly not the London elite (and as others have pointed out London is largely Labour, Tory voters tend to commute in from the suburbs as they can't afford to live in central London). The SNP have had a big hand in delivering a Tory majority UK government, as I said before many commentators though UKIP damaging Tories would be the big issue in this election but actually it's been SNP damaging Labour and consolidating the vote in England against a Labour/SNP coalition

I voted Tory for the first time ever and stopping the break up of the union was part of the logic for doing so. If Sturgeon was seen to be pulling Milliband's strings then there would have been a vote to remove Scotland from the union within this parliamentary term. I didn't want a situation where the SNP were holding over 90% of the population to ransom. Sturgeon wants nothing more than to pit the people of Scotland against the rUK, you can hear this in the non stop stream of anti-Westminster rhetoric that she is pumping out. The idea that Scotland has not been represented in Westminster until now is a joke.

Who is the "you" in that point?

The Tory scare mongering worked to an extent, but 50/60/70 seats worth, nah, it maybe gave them 5 to 10 seats and tipped them over the edge to an overall majority.

But that screams a much more fundamental problem to me. Labour were seen as incompetent and weak, and essentially had very poor leadership. If Labour were seen as a strong party with good leadership, they would have romped home in Scotland too.

The fact Scottish and English voters have that distrust in common and deserted labour en masse tells me that the tory fear mongering had limited appeal, and the blame lies squarely at Labour head office, for incompetence.

The SNP campaign wasn't fought on nationalism, and gives them no mandate for independence. In that context labour should have done much better this side of the border. Look at the majorities labour had in the past 10/20 years, England isn't afraid to vote for a strong Labour party all on its own.

The SNP campaign wasn't fought on nationalism

I haven't seen any debates, and have tried to avoid much of the run up so cannot comment on any campaign as a whole, however I did see a few party broadcasts which I assume are part of that campaign. Until the first mention of labour about halfway through, the SNP broadcast outlining 'OUR' country and some apparently uniquely Scottish traits is pure nationalism, shown below.

Although I disagree with them, the fault of the make up of Westminster cannot be put at their door. I punished labour because they were so poor. We have what we have, so be it.

Just watching the VE Day celebrations. Call me Dave must be cringeing as London rings to the skirl of the pipes.

The uk is a country made up of 4 nations(locales)(and you can split England up further), it's difficult to get away from that and if your party only stands in one of those nations the debate is always going to be framed within that locale.

Here's an Englishmans view on it.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/english-politicians-understand-scotland-snp/9573

When will English politicians understand Scotland and the SNP?

How much longer does the English political establishment go on not only not getting it – but demonstrating with toe-curling embarrassment that they simply don’t get it.

The inability overnight of English political leaders to read, even vaguely the significance of the SNP obliteration, leaves one speechless.

Let us take two examples. English voters would say left and right wing ones.

First Ed Miliband lashing out at the SNP revolution saying Labour had gone down to a “surge of nationalism”.

Then Boris Johnson talked about the urgent need to reach a “simple” sort of “federal” arrangement to somehow cope with the incoming yellow tsunami in Westminster.

Both men, simply not seeing or wilfully ignoring the greater part of the entire SNP campaign here.

It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.

The wholesale success of an anti-austerity, anti-Trident, pro fiscal autonomy campaign – it is sometimes as if the SNP never mentioned it.

But these campaign issues are what Scots went for in a droves as the SNP drilled into the Labour and LibDem votes from Jo Grimond country in the northern isles to the old red heartlands of the central belt.

They wanted a “left” alternative, the SNP use the word “progressive”. It is that simple.

In England they do not.

What is clear is that somehow, somewhere, London is going to have to start hearing this message delivered in utterly historic fashion.

Somehow Edinburgh/Glasgow is going to have to find more effective ways of getting its vision across.

If they do not, the avalanche mandate what they call A Jockalypse Now, may indeed turn into exactly what England prematurely fears right now – unstoppable pressure upon Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond to return to nationalism. Jockalypse goes apocalypse.

Put simply, the surest way for the English lurid fears about the SNP to be realised, is to continue thinking it’s all about nationalism insofar as it thinks about Scotland at all

seosamh77 - Member
I thought that was quite clear. You and your chosen party.

Oh I see Joe, I have a chosen party do I? That's nice to know. I appreciate that Ernie likes to make things up so that he argue against them, but really Joe, you don't need to join him.

I have no attachment to any political party and as said many times, find it puzzling/sad why other chose to constrain themselves along such line. Still, each to their own, but please don't keep making things up about people you do not know.

Who did you vote for?

[img] [/img]

😆

but on the other hand the SNP now have no chance of another independence referendum, and no power to negotiate a better deal for Scotland

You reckon?

You have clearly never tried to negotiate with anyone from scotland.

Until the first mention of labour about halfway through, the SNP broadcast outlining 'OUR' country and some apparently uniquely Scottish traits is pure nationalism, shown below.

What's nationalistic about saying that your country is no better or worse than anywhere else?

You have clearly never tried to negotiate with anyone from scotland.

Genuine 😆

They wanted a “left” alternative, the SNP use the word “progressive”. It is that simple.

In England they do not

What? I think an awful lot would have voted for a left alternative if there's been one on the ballot...

The difference between Scots and the English isn't innate, it's the existence of the SNP. Nationalism gave them their credibility tk begin with but since they were also left, they attracted the left vote. The English have nothing and the Welsh don't have much since Welsh nationalism isn't quite the same thing.

I have no attachment to any political party and as said many times

#Tory the vote that dare not speak its name

What? I think an awful lot would have voted for a left alternative if there's been one on the ballot...

GFs mum voted conservative solely on the basis that everyone else on the ballot paper was ****ing useless. She is traditionally a hard left voter, and still is in terms of what she wants from a government. But a credible option simply wasn't standing in her constituency.

Admittedly in that scenario I'd have gone with a protest vote.

Welsh don't have much since Welsh nationalism isn't quite the same thing.

What? Mate - You are going to get flamed alive by the Welsh brethren on here! 🙂

[url= http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/snp_wins_election_in_gorleston_on_sea_1_4064686 ]SNP win in England [/url] 😀

Seosamh

It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.

That may well be the case, but many, many in the rest of the UK will find it difficult to separate the cries for independence heard less than a year ago from the SNP campaign of this past election. Why would the people of England take any notice of what SNP were campaigning on? We couldn't vote for them.

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

They haven't, obviously. But another referendum is pretty much off the table unless there's a vote to exit the EU.

Why would the people of England take any notice of what SNP were campaigning on? We couldn't vote for them.

The massive amount of negative press coverage? If people did their own research instead of believing everything they read in the papers and on the internet we'd be in a much better place.

If people did their own research instead of believing everything they read in the papers and on the internet we'd be in a much better place.

Si solum

whatnobeer - Member
They haven't, obviously. But another referendum is pretty much off the table unless there's a vote to exit the EU.

Nah, the scottish elections are where it will be decided if there's a referendum or not. This or the next(personally I reckon the SNP need to campaign on it this time, while their stock is at an all time high, it'll never be higher.)

Gowrie - Member
Seosamh
It wasn’t nationalism. They barely campaigned on it. Referendum and independence were only in the debate because it is often all the English establishment seems to be able to see.
That may well be the case, but many, many in the rest of the UK will find it difficult to separate the cries for independence heard less than a year ago from the SNP campaign of this past election. Why would the people of England take any notice of what SNP were campaigning on? We couldn't vote for them.

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

The SNP haven't changed their spots, and they never will. If you listen to what they say, they clearly see the Scottish elections as were they will get their mandate from to go for independence.

Until that mandate comes, they will work within the context of the UK.

But another referendum is pretty much off the table unless there's a vote to exit the EU.

Which the UK is getting and given what's just happened these last few days, we'll be getting a second independence referendum before the end of this parliament.

Nah, the scottish elections are where it will be decided if there's a referendum or not.

Sort of I guess. If the SNP stick in their manifesto and gain another majority then, yeah, back on the table, but I'm not sure they will do.

Even if they do get a mandate from the electorate in Scotland you still need CMD to agree to holding another one. Given the real possibility he'd lose this time, I'm not sure he'd agree to.

whatnobeer - Member
Nah, the scottish elections are where it will be decided if there's a referendum or not.
Sort of I guess. If the SNP stick in their manifesto and gain another majority then, yeah, back on the table, but I'm not sure they will do.

Even if they do get a mandate from the electorate in Scotland you still need CMD to agree to holding another one. Given the real possibility he'd lose this time, I'm not sure he'd agree to.

Maybe, maybe not.

The EU won't be a trigger for anything btw, England will vote to stay in I reckon.

Gowrie - Member

And I think a lot will require more convincing than one election campaign to get them to believe the SNP have changed their spots.

They don't need to change their spots- there isn't any contradiction between wanting independence, but also wanting the best country you can have while part of the UK. There's a lot of things that the SNP would prefer to do in an independent scotland that they can still work towards within the UK.

Strategically, of course, it could be beneficial if the UK goes down the toilet and I know a lot of people assume that's what the SNP want or even will try to make happen but we'd still be living in it while it flushed so it's not [i]really[/i] ideal.

@seaso, why is London going to have to start hearing this message you speak of ? Westminster will deliver the Smith proposals any maybe a bit more as to do is going to suit English votes for English Laws. Other than that there is nothing to negotiate whatever @wan says.

@athgray watched the video. As an aside I don't see Scits as optimistic at all, generally the stereotypical view would be the opposite and I'd probably fall into that trap also.

@ben spending our way out of the recession just wasn't feasible, the numbers didn't work. The debt levels left by Labour took that option away. As I've posted many time s before the only country to try such a thing was Framce and it hasn't worked and they've now reversed that policy approach and have joined the "austerity" game plan. By the way members of the eurozone had little flexibility as the debt/GDP rules force governments hands, the French asked for a waiver and the Germans declined.

Some of our fine troops serving Her Majesty for the benefit of the whole country. Thank you. VE 70 today

[img] [/img]

@seaso, why is London going to have to start hearing this message you speak of ? Westminster will deliver the Smith proposals any maybe a bit more as to do is going to suit English votes for English Laws. Other than that there is nothing to negotiate whatever @wan says.

Well, we'll see what Smith and English laws turns into...

London can listen to Scotland or not listen to Scotland as it pleases, the later won't be conducive to union.

why is London going to have to start hearing this message you speak of

Why mention London? There is no London government. Some people could do with remembering that.

@wan @seaso used the word London in his earlier post

Northwind said

They don't need to change their spots- there isn't any contradiction between wanting independence, but also wanting the best country you can have while part of the UK.

Of course they don't and won't. But seaso was implying that the anti austerity, anti trident etc etc had to be understood by the English. It doesn't. All England and those in favour of the union need to understand is that the SNP are dedicated to the breakup of the union, and deal with them accordingly.

And what was Nicola on about this morning on Andrew Marr? She wanted more for Scotland and more now - ergo less for everyone else.