[Closed] This Scottish Business

Ditto Jock Stein... not that it has any relevance whatsoever, and can we please move on from it? I accept that you are right and I am an evil facist white anglo saxon racist git and that I intentionally made a slur on the sacred heritage of the Scottish people, however its getting boring now and can I move on and insult you in another way??

I see there's a separate thread on this now!!!

Er... Jock is another name commonly used for people called John in Scotland. Not quite the same thing.

BB that is a truly awesome attempt to appear to make peace whilst hurling insults around

the peole you are aiming your "banter" at dont like it

Only a **** continues to do it or defends it in that manner:roll:

I don't think it's fair to characterise everyone who doesn't like Alex Salmond as a Tory.

how unusual for you to personalise things

I replied to your post I did nothing personal - re read what you wrote and please refrain. I get this every time I reply to you and you actually blame me for it. Its nothing personal sometimes I just disagree with you. I am not doing the personal shit nor have I here.

Can I just take us back a page to BenCoopers flag?

[img] [/img]

I do think that as Wales is now officially a country, and not merely a "principality", that it deserves a place on the new EWNI flag.

Yeh right?!?

I think I would prefer to ignore your nonsense, its easier all round and less tiring. Don't bother reading your last quote and retort above.

Nope I'm not making peace. I actually think its an entirely false premise and a very poor attempt to bypass the original point. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

PS: a bit rich coming from you JY.

New, improved rUK flag:

[img] [/img]

http://www.easyweb.co.uk/2012/10/ruk-flag/

Like I said ...pot. kettle, black etc

Ah yes, totally forgot about the bit where I referred to an entire nation using a derogatory term. 🙄

Life's too short. Crack on Berm Bandit.

Interesting data from the ONS (summarised by the BBC):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266

If correct, 10-20% of Scotland's tax revenue is from oil and gas, compared with 1.5% for the UK as a whole. Becoming independent could therefore leave Scotland massively exposed to volatility in the price of oil and gas, and of course the significant shortfall needs to be taken up when tax revenue declines as the resource runs out. I don't see any other industry (or combination thereof) covering this shortfall, but perhaps the white paper outlines this.

but perhaps the white paper outlines this.

It does. GDP is pretty much the same if you discount oil, it's when you add in oil that Scotland's GDP pulls ahead of the rest of the UK.

Oil is a nice bonus, not an economic necessity.

the point I was making was that in the forum that actually makes the decision (i.e. Westminster), on Scottish Independence,
Just plain wrong Berm Bandit the result of the referendum is binding on westminster.
As for voting differently in different elections, you could argue many reasons for that.

[quote=Kit ]Interesting data from the ONS (summarised by the BBC):
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266
If correct, 10-20% of Scotland's tax revenue is from oil and gas, compared with 1.5% for the UK as a whole. Becoming independent could therefore leave Scotland massively exposed to volatility in the price of oil and gas, and of course the significant shortfall needs to be taken up when tax revenue declines as the resource runs out. I don't see any other industry (or combination thereof) covering this shortfall, but perhaps the white paper outlines this.
And the rest of the analysis shows that the tax-take/GDP of iScotland is roughly equal to that of the rest of the UK. So, whereas in a "good" year, tax from oil and gas might add 20% to that, in a bad year it might only be 1 or 2%. Are you suggesting that having 18% extra some years is a bad thing?

Life's too short. Crack on Berm Bandit.

Actually, I've just reread the OP, and I'm going to hold my hands up and accept the point regarding Jocks. 😳

I can see how that can be seen as perjorative. It was not the intent, and when viewed from my perspective and as intended it did not seem to me to be so. However, online and not knowing my background or where I'm coming from I can see how it could be misconstrued as such.

Apologies for that unintentional error.

I think I would prefer to ignore your nonsense,

You seem incapable of stopping yourself so perhaps its for the best?

BB Respect

Just plain wrong Berm Bandit the result of the referendum is binding on westminster.

The decision to hold a binding referendum on Independance was made at Westminster. Until the referendum is held and subject to a yes vote Westminster retains ultimate control. That being the case not putting an SNP/Independance bum on a Westminster seat and instead returning a vast majority of Labour MP's can't really be construed as a sweeping vote in favour of independance surely?.

If Alex Salmond achieves independence for Scotland, will there be a film and will he be played by Mel Gibson?

Scotroutes - isn't the real issue the volatility in the price of oil? Lets say Scotland is independent with its own currency. So therice of oil goes up. Great more tax revenue. But what happens to the currency. It goes up as well. And the impact on Scottish manufacturing? In the UK case, the rise in the price of oil contributed to sterling rising from $1.60 to $2.40 In the 70s with a very negative impact on UK manufacturing and employment.

As Gavin McCrone puts it in hIs excellent analysis of all the independence issues - "in effect the tax revenue from the NS ended up paying for the resulting unemployment."

It will be interesting to read how today's paper tackles this vulnerability and what flesh if any is put on the idea of a future fund. Leaving aside the folly of all govs failing to set up an oil fund, if Scotland chose to do that upon independence it would have to find other measures to tackle its deficit - higher taxes or lower spending both of which will be unpopular and would lead to higher unemployment.

In the past, the Scottish gov has said that it would set up a fund when "fiscal conditions allow" which is fair enough but that could be a considerable time.

McCrone also raises the interesting idea of the Shetlanders opting to stay part of the union even if the rest of Scotland chose otherwise which is interesting if unlikely (?)

slowjo - Member

If Alex Salmond achieves independence for Scotland, will there be a film and will he be played by Mel Gibson?

Ken Stott.

NW - did you see my question on "foreign" 😉 students? Do you have the inside track?

McCrone also raises the interesting idea of the Shetlanders opting to stay part of the union even if the rest of Scotland chose otherwise which is interesting if unlikely (?)

I remember reading (I have no idea where now) a journalist putting this proposition to Alec and asking how that would affect Scotland's economic viability. On the premise that virtually all NS Oil falls in the Shetlands/Hebrides territorial waters not the Scottish mainland's.

As I recall (and I'm simplifying here but not much) his reply was, 'Well they can't - they're part of Scotland.'

Doesn't this somewhat fly in the face of his 'Scotland should be allowed to decide if it wants to be independant' mantra?

his reply was, 'Well they can't - they're part of Scotland.'

I'm a Scottish-surnamed, Scottish-heritage, Welsh-born, Welsh-speaking, English-parented, English-dweller.

I've lived in all 4 of the Home Countries and there's far more that we share than we don't.

Logic aside: it would seem a real shame from a cultural, familial and modern historical point of view - and make me sad - if the UK of Britain should fall apart like this. 🙁

Pretty much nobody apart from Tavish Scott, the LibDem MSP, thinks Shetland should become independent from an independent Scotland.

Well, it is quite an interesting side debate. Guess what? According to McCrones book, "The Centralising tendencies (sound familiar?) of Scottish governments since devolution are not welcome in the islands and Shetland is conscious of the advantages it's neighbours, the Faroe islands, have as a dependency of Denmark rather than an integral part of the Danish state."

teamhurtmore - Member

NW - did you see my question on "foreign" students? Do you have the inside track?

I wrote an epic response to it earlier then accidentally closed the window without sending it, because that's just how I roll.

Short version- we're pretty sure it'd be similiar to the current situation, with a bit of legal gymnastics- basically switching from the current "government pays your fees" for scottish students to "government makes a block payment to the universities who then give you a scholarship equal to your fees". There's precedent in some mainland universities, the EU won't confirm it's legit til after the referendum though but all the legal advice says yes. There's a plan B which is much the same but with slightly different bullshit.

The upshot is likely to be that we also use the same mechanism to start charging EU applicants- my own opinion is that's coming sooner or later regardless of the result of the vote, the current situation is silly.

Pretty much nobody apart from Tavish Scott, the LibDem MSP, thinks Shetland should become independent from an independent Scotland.

Cheers NW, I agree the current situation is silly and must be annoying for you. Funny that down here, there was an impression that your nearest competitor (if I understand correctly) was discriminating against non-Scottish students two years ago, then flipped last year (due to the higher fees?). My number 2 wants to come to Scotland in 2016 so will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Thanks for the summary.

One odd thing about the white paper and Universities is that they claim an Independent Scotland will remain part of the Research Councils. Personally I can't see the Westminster Treasury letting that happen, as they wouldn't want 'UK' taxpayers subsidizing the Scottish Uni's. Plus Scotland's research priories would then be set by Westminster which is what they are trying to avoid.

It also then raises the problem of Scottish University access to Large Facilities. I'm sure the access would be forthcoming but at a price. There are real major risks to the Scottish Uni sector in an Independent world.

wrecker - Member

his reply was, 'Well they can't - they're part of Scotland.'

He's probably right, inasmuch as the referendum is for Scotland to leave the UK- it'd be perfectly possible for a part of Scotland to pursue a separatist agenda of their own but not to simply opt out of independence without doing so.

Dozens of countries manage to share things like CERN - that's not a big issue really.

bencooper - Member

Pretty much nobody apart from Tavish Scott, the LibDem MSP, thinks Shetland should become independent from an independent Scotland.

Say's who Ben? Have the Islanders been given the opportunity to say? are they getting a seperate vote? They are as far from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London.....

Don't get me wrong if the Scottish (or the Welsh, Northern Irish, Shetlanders, Hebridians, Falklanders) want independance then they should be alowed to have it. I think it would be a sad day 🙁

BUT it has to be all or nothing. Seperate currency (call it Sterling if you wish), seperate heathcare, seperate forces, etc etc. A region of the UK can't demand to be independant but still expect to keep the bits that are convienient/will be easier/work better for them.

slowjo - Member
If Alex Salmond achieves independence for Scotland, will there be a film and will he be played by Mel Gibson?

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

Is Timmy Mallet dead?

As an Englishman born and bred, I am fully aware that I will have little or no impact in the vote, even though it will have an impact on me. I had a read of the Q&A section of the white paper and by the end I was amused and confused.

The White paper wants the best of both worlds. It states that a currency union with the rest of the UK is in the UKs best interest. That is nothing to do with Scotland, it is up the UK to decide what is in it's best interest. And in some cases that will not be in best interest of an independent Scotland. The talks afterwards are going to be very challenging and Salmond et al have already set up the UK as the big bad wolf who won't let Scotland have all its toys.

Actually I think the SNP missed a trick here. Independence is NOT about being better off, is is not about currency unions, decommissioning costs of oil platforms (that is in the White Paper). It is about a state of mind, a desire to stand alone and to hell with the consequences. The current approach is academic exercise, a middle class vision. Where is the passion? Where is the belief of 'give us our independence' and we will sort out the details later? That approach with a short passionate campaign may win. The current one will drive people away as they cannot be bothered to plough through all the details and other junk.

Nicola Sturgeon says #WhitePaper is "thoroughly honest" with Scottish people and contains "rational reasonable" answers to many questions

Ok, so skimming it till the stuff on the currency at the moment, but you have to smile at Exec Summary:

Scotland’s referendum on 18 September 2014 is a choice between two futures.

If we vote Yes, we take the next step on Scotland’s journey. We will move forward with confidence, ready to make the most of the many opportunities that lie ahead.....If we vote No, Scotland stands still.

Honestly? Wow a country stands still....Scotland enjoys a number of unique features but the ability to stand still....incredible!

And in the same summary

If we vote...Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.

Such as the level of interest rates and monetary policy in the event of maintaining £. A rational and reasonable answer, I guess???? May be it gets better the more you read?

I wonder if the FAQ contains, "getting a better/actual national anthem"?

it'd be perfectly possible for a part of Scotland to pursue a separatist agenda of their own but not to simply opt out of independence without doing so.

They [i]should[/i] be able do whatever they want to!
If it's possible for the scots to leave the UK, it [i]should[/i] be possible for the Shetlanders to leave Scotland. They [i]should[/i] be able rejoin the Scandinavians or the ruk if they want. Self determination, innit?

teamhurtmore - Member

Cheers NW, I agree the current situation is silly and must be annoying for you. Funny that down here, there was an impression that your nearest competitor (if I understand correctly) was discriminating against non-Scottish students two years ago, then flipped last year (due to the higher fees?)

Yeah, without getting too into it the current system means different groups compete for different pools of places with different restrictions on each. I think discrimination probably isn't the right word since it's not done by design, but it's certainly not a level playing field. Frankly undergrad selection is a black art, glad it's not my problem 😉

wrecker - Member

They should be able do whatever they want to!
If it's possible for the scots to leave the UK, it should be possible for the Shetlanders to leave Scotland.

And it is. But the referendum is for Scotland to leave the UK, and Shetland is part of Scotland, if they want to do something else they need to get that on the table, any more than Scotland could leave the UK without prior discussion. Though they don't seem to want to.

Will Sean Connery get a postal vote from LA?

GDP is pretty much the same if you discount oil, it's when you add in oil that Scotland's GDP pulls ahead of the rest of the UK.

Oil is a nice bonus, not an economic necessity.

and

Are you suggesting that having 18% extra some years is a bad thing?

No, but 18% less in most years [b]is[/b], when your case is that Scotland is "better off" removed from the Union. Plus, when you're trying to maintain a pension fund, fund a national health service, free bus passes, free university, free prescriptions, council tax freezes, and whatever other highly prized socialist policies the [s]SNP[/s]Scottish Government have deep pockets for, then up to 20% variation in tax receipts is significant, no?

Sorry for the questions then NW - I thought admissions was part of your job. But thanks for the answers anyway. The "discrimination" was "Southern Talk" - but two years ago the advice from schools was dont bother to apply to EU - its a waste of one of your 5 choices. In fact, that was wrong at least for the next year. In the end, they gave some pretty generous offers to students that I was aware of in England.

Certainly seems a black art for sure! Very hard giving advice.

FWIW, as an ex-pat Sweaty who is currently living in England and who has lived and travelled far overseas for many years, I think independence is a Really. Bad. Idea.

The whole thing strikes me as being as well thought through as post-invasion Iraq and the utopian ideal being sold by unscrupulous independence fans is at best deeply dishonest.

The whole sorry thing makes me despair and means I am glad not to be in "the world's best small country"* at present as it would not help my blood pressure!

*What a crap strapline to meet you at the country's airports.

I think independence is a Really. Bad. Idea.

Why? Which bit of being independent would be not be able to handle?

utopian ideal being sold by unscrupulous independence fans is at best deeply dishonest.

Really? That bad? The white paper does sound over optimistic, but without the UK Gov engaging and giving definite answers what else can they do?

That's what I find bizarre about the whole Independence debate. Already Scotland has it's own:

1) Education system
2) Legal system
3) NHS
4) Banking sector (to a degree)
5) Sports teams

After independence it still doesn't have monetary independence, and without that it isn't really independent. It still will have to act with NATO on sending folk to wars the US/UK agree on. It still has to abide by EU rules.

To be honest the only people I see winning are the politicians and the lawyers at the cost of the everyday person.

The economy of the People's Republic of Scotland is almost entirely driven by government money (i.e. public servants) directly or indirectly (i.e. companies and quangos fulfilling govt contracts). Someone will call me out on the precise figure, but it means about 65% of Scottish GDP is bankrolled from taxes as opposed to commerce. I'm no economist, but that doesn't feel very sustainable to me...

The white paper does sound over optimistic, but without the UK Gov engaging and giving definite answers what else can they do?

many questions can only be answered with negotiations
One side will say its brilliant one side will say it will be dire and we dont really have all the answers.
Lots of things are unknown.

It somewhat leaves the debate as emotive and sabre rattling from both sides as THM excerpts from the white paper show and no doubt the UK response.