[Closed] This Scottish Business

I can think of plenty of familiar collective terms for the English, bit the swear filter won't let me post any of them!

Don't rise to it - this is what they want, to make independence out to be all about hating the English.

My father is English. My GF is English. Both live in Scotland, and will both vote Yes.

I'm a jock (born in Kirkcaldy) now living in Englandshire. The accent was good for getting the girls at Uni 😉
I have faith in the people of scotland rejecting this nonsense. So many implications it's difficult to know where to start.
What about the joint armed forces?
What about all the areas of the public sector that has been funded from the public purse and now become just Scotlands, will they help to support the national debt that was incurred by funding these areas?

On a lighter more humorous note: if Scotland was to have it's own currency what would it be called? It has to be something uniquely scottish. The Haggis? 1 haggis/ 2 haggi? The sporran? The poond? 🙂

The people of Scotland voted for a referendum but maybe we should just call it off as you think it's a nonsense.

IMO it's nonsense. However, I never suggested to call it off. Crack on.

The SNP have fed off a "William Wallace everything would be better without the English myth". A lot of the Scottish economy was built around heavy industry that suffered terribly in the 70's and 80's exactly the same as a lot of the rest of the UK. If that was inevitable is a different argument.

Personally I would prefer to stay as we are, however, I also think Scotland should have their referendum and if they wish to leave the Union then do so. However, it must be a fair split especially regards the national debt.

Also, if it's a success, then I could always move there as we are all in the EU. If it's a failure then never mind.

You're kidding right? Independence is the raison d'etre and central policy of the SNP, a party which has been steadily gaining support for 40 odd years and has been voted into power in the last 2 Scottish governments. The people of Scotland voted for a referendum but maybe we should just call it off as you think it's a nonsense.

I note the overwhelming vote in favour of the SNP and a referendum below.

I'd feel guilty if that was the case - but really the way Scotland votes hasn't affected the result of an election for a long, long time.

See below.

[b]Current list of Scotlands Westminster MP's[/b]

Alexander, Danny (Liberal Democrat) Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey
Alexander, Douglas (Labour) Paisley and Renfrewshire South
Bain, William (Labour) Glasgow North East
Banks, Gordon (Labour) Ochil and South Perthshire
Begg, Anne (Labour) Aberdeen South
Brown, Gordon (Labour) Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath
Brown, Russell (Labour) Dumfries and Galloway
Bruce, Malcolm (Liberal Democrat) Gordon
Campbell, Menzies (Liberal Democrat) North East Fife
Carmichael, Alistair (Liberal Democrat) Orkney and Shetland
Clark, Katy (Labour) North Ayrshire and Arran
Clarke, Tom (Labour) Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill
Connarty, Michael (Labour) Linlithgow and East Falkirk
Crockart, Mike (Liberal Democrat) Edinburgh West
Curran, Margaret (Labour) Glasgow East
Darling, Alistair (Labour) Edinburgh South West
Davidson, Ian (Labour (Co-op)) Glasgow South West
Docherty, Thomas (Labour) Dunfermline and West Fife
Donohoe, Brian H. (Labour) Central Ayrshire
Doran, Frank (Labour) Aberdeen North
Doyle, Gemma (Labour (Co-op)) West Dunbartonshire
Gilmore, Sheila (Labour) Edinburgh East
Greatrex, Tom (Labour (Co-op)) Rutherglen and Hamilton West
Hamilton, David (Labour) Midlothian
Harris, Tom (Labour) Glasgow South
Hood, Jim (Labour) Lanark and Hamilton East
Hosie, Stewart (Scottish National) Dundee East
Jamieson, Cathy (Labour (Co-op)) Kilmarnock and Loudoun
Joyce, Eric (Independent) Falkirk
Kennedy, Charles (Liberal Democrat) Ross, Skye and Lochaber
Lazarowicz, Mark (Labour (Co-op)) Edinburgh North and Leith
McCann, Michael (Labour) East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow
McClymont, Gregg (Labour) Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East
McGovern, Jim (Labour) Dundee West
McGuire, Anne (Labour) Stirling
McKechin, Ann (Labour) Glasgow North
McKenzie, Iain (Labour) Inverclyde
MacNeil, Angus Brendan (Scottish National) Na h-Eileanan an Iar
Moore, Michael (Liberal Democrat) Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk
Morrice, Graeme (Labour) Livingston
Mundell, David (Conservative) Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale
Murphy, Jim (Labour) East Renfrewshire
Murray, Ian (Labour) Edinburgh South
Nash, Pamela (Labour) Airdrie and Shotts
O'Donnell, Fiona (Labour) East Lothian
Osborne, Sandra (Labour) Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock
Reid, Alan (Liberal Democrat) Argyll and Bute
Robertson, Angus (Scottish National) Moray
Robertson, John (Labour) Glasgow North West
Roy, Frank (Labour) Motherwell and Wishaw
Roy, Lindsay (Labour) Glenrothes
Sarwar, Anas (Labour) Glasgow Central
Sheridan, Jim (Labour) Paisley and Renfrewshire North
Smith, Robert (Liberal Democrat) West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine
Swinson, Jo (Liberal Democrat) East Dunbartonshire
Thurso, John (Liberal Democrat) Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross
Weir, Mike (Scottish National) Angus
Whiteford, Eilidh (Scottish National) Banff and Buchan
Wishart, Pete (Scottish National) Perth and North Perthshire

Now tell me that it wouldn't have any effect on the rest of the UK!

What about all the areas of the public sector that has been funded from the public purse and now become just Scotlands

We'll take our share of the NHS (already separate anyway), our share of the BBC, our share of everything else that Scottish taxpayers have contributed to (including Sterling) and our share of the national debt.

You can have the nukes for free.

No-one's saying every last person is for it, or that you have to be, but to call the referendum, something that the people of Scotland voted for, nonsense is downright ignorant. Or should we only action democracy when you agree with the outcome?

For my whole life, I've been ruled by a government that seems completely opposite to my views,

There is a fair chance that won't change regardless of the outcome, as what are you suddenly expecting to happen on independence? Scotland will stay fairly middle ground liberal, with a slight left leaning. It isn't going to change wildly from where we are now.

Putting aside all the conflicting economic and lefty/righty mumbo jumbo, on the basis that the Union Jack will look crap (see above), please Scottish people stay in the UK.

what are you suddenly expecting to happen on independence?

I'll be ruled by a parliamentary system that, via PR, is at least trying to represent the views of all the citizens of the country.

As compared to Westminster, where all that matters are the views of a few undecided voters in a few marginal constituencies.

[i]- Scottish MPs have NEVER turned what would have been a Conservative government into a Labour one, or indeed vice versa.

- on only TWO occasions, the most recent of them being 38 years ago, (1964 and the second of the two 1974 elections), have Scottish MPs given Labour a majority they wouldn’t have had from England/Wales/NI alone. The majorities in question were incredibly fragile ones of four and three MPs respectively – the 1964 Labour government lasted barely 18 months, and the 1974 one had to be propped up by the Lib-Lab Pact through 1977-78 so in practice barely qualified as a majority. Without Scottish MPs but with Liberal support, Wilson would have had a majority of 12.

- and on ONE occasion (2010) the presence of Scottish MPs has deprived the Conservatives of an outright majority, although the Conservatives ended up in control of the government anyway in coalition with the Lib Dems.

- which means that for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland’s representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change.[/i]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

Don't rise to it - this is what they want, to make independence out to be all about hating the English.

This is what who wants?

I'm getting rather fed up of people continually trying to frame the debate as being about "getting one over" or "resenting" the English. The Yes campaign has been overtly positive and there really hasnt been much the "William Wallace everything would be better without the English" bluster that you think the SNP have been thriving off.

to call the referendum, something that the people of Scotland voted for, nonsense is downright ignorant.

I suppose your right. I should of said that IMO that the break of the UK is a stupid idea.

Or should we only action democracy when you agree with the outcome?

I think you are entitled to the referendum. Never suggested otherwise.

the people of Scotland voted for

For some light relief, the Treasury has suddenly announced (why today, of all days?) that independence would make Scots £1000 worse off.

That's the same Treasury who said, at the beginning of the year, that independence would make Scots £1 worse off.

I think they've lost the decimal point on their calculator again...

I can think of plenty of familiar collective terms for the English, bit the swear filter won't let me post any of them!

Interestingly so can I and now I think about it there is a considerable element of the pot calling the kettle black don't you think? So how about talking to each other like grown ups instead?

Independence is the raison d'etre and central policy of the SNP, a party which has been steadily gaining support for 40 odd years and has been voted into power in the last 2 Scottish governments. The people of Scotland voted for a referendum

Not able to back this up with evidence but I suspect SNP has been getting more votes not because of its independence stance but instead because voters do not want to vote Tory or Labour

Bloody hell! I've just realised. We've got a Scotlandshire thread and we've not had this posted yet…

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BB. I called you out on using a derogatory term. Either take on board the fact that many Scots find it offensive and stop using it, or come north, use the term freely and see how far your Scottish heritage excuse gets you.

It's not a 'non-issue' IMO.

Just thinking about a few 'what happens if.....'

So Mrs GDRS would take a Scottish Passport if they existed. Her father lives near Wick so there is link by ancestry. What would happen if everyone eligable for a Scottish passport 'returned home', Say to retire or have kids? Or if they married, and their spouse (i.e.me) was then eligable for a passport. Would these scenrios beneift Scotland or be too much of a stretch for the infrustructure?

I can see that the issuing of Scotish passports to the diaspora could be a money spinner. How big is the 'Scottish nation' if everyone eligable for a passport took one up?

On a simialr note, how many Canadian's / Aussy's and Kiwi's would be eligible for passports - and would this be a legitimate way for people with ancester claims to enter the UK to work (as they would switch from a commonwealth passport with limited work rights to an EU passport with freedom of movement).

Would UK passport holders in scotland (who are Scottish) be asked to surrender their passports?

Current UK companies with offices in Scotland - Would a Scottish administration be forced to offer tax breaks etc to companies to keep parts of thier work force over the boarder? As a similar example is Nokia in Helsinki - they employ so many people in Finland they can boss the government around (taxes breaks etc). Or is this an oppertunity to increase employment in Scotland buy luring businesses to Scotland for faverable tax treatment?

If the Euro were adopted as a currency would that creat a 'Dover - Calais' / 'Derry - Galway' effect where excahange rate drives cross
boarder consumer trade (petrol & groceries etc). Does that in the long run benefit the North of the UK and towns like Carlisle - or put more pressure on these local economies?

*My personal view on the whole thing is that it's all or nothing. Vote in or out - and then see what happens in the morning!

On eligibility...

The following groups are entitled to be on the electoral register for the referendum:

British citizens resident in Scotland.
Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland who have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.
Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
Service personnel serving in the UK or overseas with the armed forces who are registered to vote in Scotland.
Crown personnel serving outside the UK with HM Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

I assume that Crown/Service personnel don't get to vote in any elections local to themselves? E.g. if you're a UK citizen working in the US embassy you don't get to vote in any US elections?

dragon - Member

There is a fair chance that won't change regardless of the outcome, as what are you suddenly expecting to happen on independence? Scotland will stay fairly middle ground liberal, with a slight left leaning. It isn't going to change wildly from where we are now.

In the majority of elections in the last 60 years, Scotland has ended up with a party they haven't voted for. So yes, it'll change wildly. Scotland will stay middle/left/liberal and we'll stop getting governments most of the time which aren't.

So how about talking to each other like grown ups instead?

A great idea. Some mutual respect. If only you'd started your thread in that manner.

konabunny - Member
The currency point ignores the fact that monetary policy is set by global capitalism. Currency sovereignty is a myth

I think you would get an interesting response if you tried to sell that idea to the youth of Spain, Italy, Portugal etc...

Ben - I struggle with you arguments re French/independence, £ and your use of Ireland as a blueprint for success, but like you ideas about the Yes v No campaign and how this comes across.

Of course, this is the Yes side's trump card. Most of your (the yes camp) basic points will be irrefutable and can be expressed like a classic cold reading. We want to have more say, we want a better Scotland, we want a place where our children will be happier growing up, we want better services, education, beer (spesh is pish) etc. Hard to argue against any of that. But then the crux. How do you deliver that? When the no campaign (correctly IMO) picks holes in "the how", this is very easy to portray as being negative and/or scaremongering. Its nothing of the sort, but that will not prevent this line of argument being used for the rest of the campaign.

Ditto, Salmond and Sturgeon are masters at playing the Westminster bully boys card. When do they play this? Exactly when their own attempts to (bully?) maximise Scotlands self interests (unsurprisingly) at the expense of the rest of the UK come up against resistance (again unsurprisingly). I think this explains a lot of the animosity in England. Of course this is neither a vote for Salmond nor against Cameron but it easily becomes so. Salmond wants his cake and to eat it (and more). His blatant opportunism and masquearding behind "Westminster bullies us", grates south of the border * (sorry 😉 ). That and the fact that after all this time, he still hasn't properly thought things through. And not just little things but the major issues that will determine the future wellbeing of the Scotland. That is unforgivable in my mind and if the vote does go "no" then those who wish for independence should never let him forget this lack of detailed preparation. He's had enough time.

* Sturgeon's rather sad attempt to argue about the share of Uk liabilities this morning is a prime example.

NW - on the topic of self-interest (mine in this case!!! 😉 ) can you remind me what would happen to English/Welsh students applications to Scottish Unis in the case of a yes vote. How will you admission policies be affected, if at all, and what about fees for residents of England or Wales?

which means that for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government

Or to put it another way since World War 2 out of the 6 terms of Labour government 2 or 1/3rd were directly as a result of the Scottish MP's. So instead of 10 Tory and one tory dominated coaltion we would have had 13 periods of Tory domination, out of 17 which is 75% near as damn it which is precisely what we lefties down here are worried about.

Interesting how you can manuipulate both words and statistics isn't it?

The only reason the No campaign can pick holes in the "how" is that Westminster refuses to discuss the possibility.

The only reason the No campaign can pick holes in the "how" is that Westminster refuses to discuss the possibility.

Sorry Ben, not sure what you are trying to say there?

can you elaborate?

IMO the details and the finances need to follow after the basic question has been answered. The remainder of our shared island and the EU aren't going to stand by and watch Scotland go tits up. Take the bullshit and made up stats from both sides out of the argument and simply answer do you want to break away from the UK. Yes or no. Everything else will equal itself out over time.

If I had a vote it would be yes.

[quote=winston_dog ]The only reason the No campaign can pick holes in the "how" is that Westminster refuses to discuss the possibility.
Sorry Ben, not sure what you are trying to say there?
Here's a good example...

There are a lot of competing claims about the position of iScotland in the EU. The EU have said that they would be only too willing to provide a definitive answer - but only in response to a request from the UK Government. So far, the UK Government have declined to put forward that request. Why? Perhaps they just like the uncertainty...or perhaps they have an inkling that they'll not like the answer? Much better to stand at the side and heckle. It's called FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Well you have one side who point blank refuses to provide information about how a post independence settlement might work

To say Scotland has had no influence in UK politics is idiotic e.g. the last PM and Chancellor were Scottish voted in from Scottish seats. If you didn't like them and what they were doing for the constituency then why did you keep voting for them?

Now tell me that it wouldn't have any effect on the rest of the UK!

Berm Bandit the Westminster parliament is for the whole of the UK,which currently includes Scotland. I have no problem with Scottish mps not having a vote on matters which do not affect Scotland- the West Lothian question. They have every right to vote on issues affecting the whole UK until Scots vote for independence.

But then the crux. How do you deliver that? When the no campaign (correctly IMO) picks holes in "the how", this is very easy to portray as being negative and/or scaremongering. Its nothing of the sort, but that will not prevent this line of argument being used for the rest of the campaign.

They wont discuss devolution in advance and no one knows what will happen it is just negative and scare mongering - you wont be in the EU. you wont have the pound etc. Its not like the no campaign ever say anything positive or good about devolution is it.

Ditto, Salmond and Sturgeon are masters at playing the Westminster bully boys card.

His blatant opportunism and masquearding behind "Westminster bullies us", grates south of the border * (

sorry ). That and the fact that after all this time,

he still hasn't properly thought things through.

No one who disagrees with you ever has.

FWIW, I'm still trying to download the bloody White Paper. I'd like to know where all these well-informed posters above managed to get it so quickly.

White Paper also available here:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/scotlands-future/#more-44872

The promises read like a labour budget, lots of promise, zero chance of being implemented without bankrupting the country.

The labour spending plans were matched by the Tories before the sub prime market in the USA collapsed causing as GLOBAL financial mess

LHS dont let the facts get in the way of a really weak tribal political point

The promises read like a labour budget, lots of promise, zero chance of being implemented without bankrupting the country.

I'm glad you've carried out a detailed fiscal spending and budgetary analysis. I'm now going to vote no. Thanks.

You probably need to be a Tory to think that like tbh

Everyone I know thinks Scotland should go it alone to free themselves from the influences of nefarious Tories and wish they could as well.

Hmmm. I know a few Scots who have very little time for Alex Salmond. See his cosying up to people like Donald Trump and Rupert Murdoch, for example.

My brother lives in Lochgoilhead and he says he says it's reasonably split but probably the majority are against independence there. I don't think it's fair to characterise everyone who doesn't like Alex Salmond as a Tory.

LHS - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html

Gosh JY how unusual for you to personalise things and this was a polite debate generally especially given the subject. But care to think a little bit about simple questions that have caught Salmond and Sturgeon out over the past few monts - or just hide behind the ad homs that you regularly accuse others of. Its self-parody now.

The manipulation of facts with the EU membership is funny though (from both sides). Look how the comments from Tenreiro were reported recently.

In a letter of reply, Mr Tenreiro said that whilst a change of treaties would be required - needing the approval of other members - that: "…as you say, it would of course be legally possible to re-negotiate the situation of UK and Scotland within the EU."

Followed by a fuller quote in much smaller font which continues...

..of course this would imply a change of the Treatise which could only be done by unanimity from all Member States

A minor detail! Perhaps thats why the font was so small in the report on the website?!?

Well the "No side" probably played their trump card by outfoxing the "special one" on the actual vote. No vote for devo max and who is the smart one?

BB. I called you out on using a derogatory term. Either take on board the fact that many Scots find it offensive and stop using it, or come north, use the term freely and see how far your Scottish heritage excuse gets you.

Its not derogatory, its also a term that originated North of the border. You can of course choose to be offended by it if you wish, but personally I'd man up a bit, perhaps look for a more persuasive platform from which to make your point. Like I said ...pot. kettle, black etc. Generally speaking you will find that us soft southern bedwetters hold you top hard northerners in much higher regard than you seem to imagine, and in the main the vitriole is a one way street.... (but not wishing to fall for bencoopers "Look out for the Sassenach bastard’s tricky double bluff manoeuvre" argument, lets leave it there eh?)

Berm Bandit the Westminster parliament is for the whole of the UK,which currently includes Scotland. I have no problem with Scottish mps not having a vote on matters which do not affect Scotland- the West Lothian question. They have every right to vote on issues affecting the whole UK until Scots vote for independence.

...and your point is caller? [to make it easy for you, what the point I was making was that in the forum that actually makes the decision (i.e. Westminster), on Scottish Independence, the Scottish electorate manifestly didn't support the SNP, also that the removal of what some might see as Scottish common sense from the picture will have a substantial impact on UK politics). That is all.

I'm glad you've carried out a detailed fiscal spending and budgetary analysis. I'm now going to vote no. Thanks.

Do what you want, but as an independent observer its blatent fortune telling rather than well thought out budget balancing.

Berm Bandit - Member
Generally speaking you will find that us soft southern bedwetters hold you top hard northerners in much higher regard than you seem to imagine

+1

and in the main the vitriole is a one way street

+0.5 😉

Its not derogatory, its also a term that originated North of the border.

Aha, the "n***er isn't racist because I hear black people using it" argument 😉

So Ben, was the late, great world champion John Thomas Wilson forced to use the "Jocky" name by those bullies down south?