[Closed] This Scottish Business

So I really hope the answer is 'no'.

I can see why, and in some ways I feel guilty that we'd drop you in it. I guess the hope is, with losing 1/3 of it's land area, a significant percentage of GDP, and probably it's nuclear weapons, the rUK might get a sharp shock and actualy do something about becoming more Eurpoean and less American in outlook.

Also, the example of a successful independent Scotland might help with regional assemblies.

a minority which is selected by those with a vested interest in one particular outcome?

People who live in Scotland will be able to vote yes or no. The "vested interest" is we actually live in the country in question.

Or do you think you should have a say in US elections too?

The bit I don't get is why so many English people are anti-independence - usually the same people who make comments about "sweaty Jocks". Is it an inferiority complex thing?

hexhamstu - Member
I'm Scottish but live in Wales. It would be stupid to give me a vote

So should that not be Scottish/Welsh/OncelivedinHexhamStu?

I'm going to be interested to read the white paper and see the detail of the economic arguments, it will at least have more substance than the no campaign's scaremongering - mobile roaming charges in the borders anyone?

I'll be voting yes and frankly I'd still vote yes if it guaranteed that I'd lose my job and took 10 years off my life. It's not overtly oppressive in the way it once was but ideologically the UK means nothing to me. I grew up in Aberdeen, closer to Oslo than London, and not just in distance.

OP, referring to us as jocks isn't great way of engaging us in debate TBH.

'll be voting yes and frankly I'd still vote yes if it guaranteed that I'd lose my job and took 10 years off my life.

What an odd thing to say. Why on earth would you do that?

Because that's how much independence means to me. It's about the only thing I'd put above personal gain.

Aberdeen, closer to Oslo than London, and not just in distance

Aberdeen doesn't really reflect the rest of Scotland does it?

slowjo - Member
the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.
I don't think they have much idea what is going on anywhere outside London and care even less.

Exactly the point made by John Harris in yesterdays Guardian.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/25/vote-scotland-grab-chance-secession ]The debate so far shows there's potential for at least one part of these islands to reject the consensus and seek something better
[/url]

I'd definitely vote yes. As a (very disaffected) northerner, its obvious the politics of Westminster, whichever party is in power, now serves the interests of absolutely no-one outside the capital and the South East. The rest of us are utterly irrelevant, and are becoming more an more so at a rate of knots.

Its alright saying, from Daves point of view,, independence would be great. He gets an eternal hegemony. But in reality, if Scotland went its own way, and the north was doomed to eternal Tory rule from a even remoter Westminster, do you think that the populations of Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland and Liverpool would just shrug, and say 'oh well' and just accept that?

Of course they bloody wouldn't!!! If Scotland goes, then who else is going to be looking for the Exit? Pretty much everyone outside the gilded South East, I reckon. Scottish independence would start a domino effect that would lead who-knows-where

I'm all for it!!!

Of course they bloody wouldn't!!! If Scotland goes, then who else is going to be looking for the Exit? Pretty much everyone outside the gilded South East, I reckon. Scottish independence would start a domino effect that would lead who-knows-whet

You are joking aren't you? This cannot be serious?

There's an awful lot I'd be prepared to put up with for a 'No Tory Government' guarantee.

If only we could shift the border south a little - Deansgate in Manchester would be perfect.

Aberdeen doesn't really reflect the rest of Scotland does it?

I'd say it reflects it rather better than London, Birmingham or Manchester. What's your point?

One of the other reasons it doesn't sit well with me is I don't really like nationalism, in any form. Saying 'our country is great' generally seems inextricably linked with 'compared to all those other countries that we are superior to'.

For some people being a proud Scot seems quite tied up with resentment towards the English.

Having said that if I was Scottish I reckon I'd vote yes. I think realistically some sort of 'Devo Max' would actually be the best outcome for most people though.

Or do you think you should have a say in US elections too?

That's a pretty poor analogy.

Its alright saying, from Daves point of view,, independence would be great. He gets an eternal hegemony. But in reality, if Scotland went its own way, and the north was doomed to eternal Tory rule from a even remoter Westminster, do you think that the populations of Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland and Liverpool would just shrug, and say 'oh well' and just accept that?

Yes I think they would. We don't have enough of a distinct culture/identity to go it alone - really can't see that ever happening (more's the pity). I guess maybe you do need a certain amount of nationalism, to have a nation. 🙂

winston_dog - Member
I lived for 6 years in Scotland. There was a distinct minority who were very anti-English. I saw discrimination against English people in the workplace.

Must have been hard for you, you know coming from that utopian paradise of tolerance,England.
As balance,I lived in London for 6 years,there was a [b]distinct majority[/b] who were very anti-everybody else.

This country, our country, should be trying to get it's ar5e in gear rather than squabbling about how to cut up the ever decreasing slice of the pie.

Good luck with that. Westminster politics is broken, probably beyond repair - we're ruled by a coalition government that no-one voted for, in an election that only a minority could even bring themselves to vote in, and this situation has repeated over and over. Even Tony Blair in his most popular years only managed to get 22% of the population to vote for him.

If you live in Scotland, then vote if you don't then if you want a say move back.

Being an English Ex-pat I'm not that bothered but just not sure how much of the SNP's plans will carry one once funding from the rest stops. Just make sure you know what your voting for.

ll be voting yes and frankly I'd still vote yes if it guaranteed that I'd lose my job and took 10 years off my life.

I'm an 'incomer' albeit one who has lived in Scotland for all of my adult life. I'll be putting aside my own personal views and voting on behalf of my kids and what I think will be best for them in the future. I certainly wouldn't be voting yes if it diminished their job prospects and shortened their lives!

Saying 'our country is great' generally seems inextricably linked with 'compared to all those other countries that we are superior to'.

The ScotNat debate has been almost completely free of that - the most that's been said on the Yes side is that we could be as good as some other countries.

Whereas the No campaign basically boils down to "you'll never be as good as those other countries".

once funding from the rest stops

Once Scotland stops supporting the rest of the UK, we'll do fine thanks.

For clarity, I actually do think we'd be better off or at least not worse off. I was trying to illustrate that these arguments aren't what I'll be basing my decision on, for me it's ideological.

Aberdeen doesn't really reflect the rest of Scotland does it?
I'd say it reflects it rather better than London, Birmingham or Manchester. What's your point?

Aberdeen is pretty unique compared to any other city in the UK.

It is an area fueled by the N Sea Oil with London property prices and a multi national workforce.

The same Ireland that's actually doing pretty well now, with a higher GDP per capita than the UK?

Ireland was in recession in Q1 2013 and has an unemployment rate of over 13%. And you want Scotland to be like that?

I'll be putting aside my own personal views and voting on behalf of my kids and what I think will be best for them in the future.

Indeed. I grew up under Thatcher, saw all that she did to this country, and then when I finally got a chance to vote, who was the opposition? Tony F***ing Blair. For my whole life, I've been ruled by a government that seems completely opposite to my views, and disinterested or even antagonistic to the place I live.

I don't want that for my daughter.

Berm Bandit I think you're right about devolved power for the regions of England .As a Scot living in Scotland I would not expect to have any say in which powers should be devolved to which regions. Despite the many similarities Scotland is different from even those regions of England with which it has most in common. I suspect many Scots on the unionist side see Scotland as a country and Scots ad a nation.Independence will I hope be a step towards a fairer society.

London property prices and a multi national workforce.

Agree, with that and I'd even go so far to say that at times Aberdeen is very like London, in that it is driven by money and a quest for even more, so not too unlike the banking sector in London.

The ScotNat debate has been almost completely free of that - the most that's been said on the Yes side is that we could be as good as some other countries.

Not according to some people - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/22/yes-to-scottish-independence

Also acceptable for foregrounding in Scottish independence debates, at least to judge by their place in the Homecoming Scotland 2014 programme , enabled by a £3m government grant, are allusions to: Highland games, whisky, clan gatherings, Gaelic, Rabbie Burns, the Forth Road Bridge's 50th birthday and Bannockburn Live, an event Salmond has described as Homecoming's "epicentre".

Let other 2014 commemorations of war dwell on reconciliation or shrink from triumphalism: next summer, visitors to Bannockburn's Live will enjoy a feast of martial entertainments, including, says Visit Scotland, "a spectacular re-enactment of this iconic battle close to the original site". Three "brutally realistic" massacres a day are promised.

"It's no surprise that 2014 is the year the SNP has chosen for the independence referendum," the Scottish poet Professor Kathleen Jamie wrote in the New Statesman after visiting the site. She is one of 10 Scottish poets invited to contribute inscriptions for a monument at Bannockburn, "exploring the significance of the Bannockburn battlefield to people today". "In some fantasy," Jamie said, "they perhaps imagine the 'independence' debate is akin to that gory feudal battle, which happened somewhere between a bog and a housing scheme, under the A91".

Whereas the No campaign basically boils down to "you'll never be as good as those other countries".

I'd agree that the No campaign has been deep cynical and pathetic.

Once Scotland stops supporting the rest of the UK, we'll do fine thanks.

They looked into this on More or Less and while obviously it all depends on how you define a number of things - IIRC they concluded that any money flowing either way probably wasn't a significant amount.

So what happened to the point that in order to join the EU, an independent Scotland would need to start the process from scratch, and that means that have to take the Euro?

Or has that been ignored as being too inconvenient for the political ideology?

vorlich - Member
OP, referring to us as jocks isn't great way of engaging us in debate TBH.

......and us is precisely whom? (Could I just point out that I would be entitled to a Scottish passport should this independance thing come about)

Or has that been ignored as being too inconvenient for the political ideology?

The currency point ignores the fact that monetary policy is set by global capitalism. Currency sovereignty is a myth (except perhaps for North Korea).

so not too unlike the banking sector in London.

......and us is precisely whom? (Could I just point out that I would be entitled to a Scottish passport should this independance thing come about)

Who do you think? The Scots.

Are some of your best friends black too?

The currency point ignores the fact that monetary policy is set by global capitalism. Currency sovereignty is a myth (except perhaps for North Korea).

I suspect that there are a few within the Euro zone who might disagree with you there.

is there any outline for if UK reject the currency union with Scotland?

is there any outline for if UK reject the currency union with Scotland?

We keep using Sterling anyway without the permission of the BoE, and refuse to take a share of the national debt?

I honestly think the whole thing is nonsense and it's a group of 2nd rate power hungry politicians who are feeding their own egos. Can't get in a real position of power in the Government? Easy, make yourself a new State.

IMO Scotland is a country that has much more distinct regions and sub cultures than the rest of the UK. If they get independence where will it stop? Wait until the Independent Scotland starts devolving internally!

Republic of Shetland and Orkney.
Republic of the Hebrides.
City State of Aberdeen. (Why should they support the rest of the Country?)
Central Belt.(Sorry that wouldn't work, Glasgow and Edinburgh can't agree on anything.

The whole thing is starting to feel like a very messy expensive divorce but it might be best to bite the bullet and get it over with, despite the damage in the medium term.

a group of 2nd rate power hungry politicians who are feeding their own egos

Um - Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Gove, Hunt,.. 😀

Can't get in a real position of power in the Government?

What percentage of the UK population voted Conservative? Now what percentage of the Scottish population voted SNP?

There's only one leader in the UK with an actual mandate from the electorate, and it's not Cameron.

I honestly think the whole thing is nonsense and it's a group of 2nd rate power hungry politicians who are feeding their own egos

You're kidding right? Independence is the raison d'etre and central policy of the SNP, a party which has been steadily gaining support for 40 odd years and has been voted into power in the last 2 Scottish governments. The people of Scotland voted for a referendum but maybe we should just call it off as you think it's a nonsense.

it would be sad if the scots left and probably to the detriment of all

but the worst thing would be condeming the rest of the UK to an eternity of tory governments, Id never forgive them for that, though it may precipitate an actual v for vendetta style uprising

If Scotland votes for independence, will that kill off the Union Jack or would it be modified, any idea what it would look like?

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but the worst thing would be condeming the rest of the UK to an eternity of tory governments, Id never forgive them for that, though it may precipitate an actual v for vendetta style uprising

I'd feel guilty if that was the case - but really the way Scotland votes hasn't affected the result of an election for a long, long time.

Shred - Member

So what happened to the point that in order to join the EU, an independent Scotland would need to start the process from scratch, and that means that have to take the Euro?

What happened to it? Nothing really- people who want to spread scare stories keep banging on about it even though it's fiction, and people who have the slightest clue ignore it.

It gets covered in just about every thread on the subject but to recap- all new EU members are required to commit to joining the Euro, and are given a target date. But there's no penalty or sanction for not meeting your joining criteria.

So, if you want to be in the EU but not in the euro it's a simple matter of not satisfying the euro requirements- just as Sweden is already doing

Who do you think? The Scots.

I think you might be missing the point. I, and a considerable number of others are both entitled to and do consider ourselves to be Scottish. Some by birth, i.e. born there and moved away later, some by parentage, i.e. Scottish parents and brought up as Scottish, to name but two ways. Trying to undermine that reality with stupid points like "I bet you have some friends who are black" or trying to make an issue out of the non issue of the use of the term Jock as a familar collective term for Scots will not invalidate that point.

The simple fact is that there is a real issue here that goes rather further than simple tribalism.

the term Jock as a familar collective term

A familiar [u]derogatory[/u] collective term.

I think we should set some explosives at the borderline, blow them up and set the buggers free.

I'm not saying which side of the border I'm sitting but I wish they'd get on and do it to give us freedom from the tight fisted moaning gits.

🙂

I can think of plenty of familiar collective terms for the English, bit the swear filter won't let me post any of them!