[Closed] This Sarkozsy Burka Business

I dont think we should be shy anymore about telling Muslim women that full face burka is rude and unaceptable in the West. It is not the job of govnt to "ban" them though. Plays into the hands of the real extremists, gives them something else to hate us for.

yeah but what if you are going to a fancy dress party dressed as a ghost
would you be arrested?

what are you actually gonna do strip trangressors in the street, as much as i particularly dislike all religious trappings and especially something menat to subjugate women as much as a burkha does i dont thionk teh law will be enforceable

all religions hate women....

[url] http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/sexual_discharges/lv15_19a.html [/url]
[url] http://bible.cc/leviticus/15-19.htm [/url]
[url] http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/garden_of_eden/gn03_16.html [/url]

I think this is Sarkozy pandering to the racists for electoral gain. "playing the race card"

I think the burka is abhorrent but I don't think it is the place of the state to interfere

So who should intervene? Its demeaning, thoroughly so. Do you think these women actually have a choice?!!!!!!!

Whilst we are on this, what does it make Turkey then? Are they 'racists'?!

i disagree TJ. The swastika is banned as a symbol of Nazism in Germany for obvious reasons and rightly so. So i think that anything that is deemed to be socially and morally unacceptable and propagates discrimination is a fair target.

So what about Nuns "habits"... no no the ones they wear??

Incidentally, can I just run my flag up on this one? My view is that religion is a personal issue, and nobodies business but your own.

If you choose to push it in front of other people then you have to accept that there may well be a reaction. I particularly dislike overt expressions of religion such as clothing/hats/hairstyles etc etc etc.

However, having said that its not my business to make these people into martyrs by reacting to it, other than to offer them sympathetic acceptance of their affliction. In respect of Sarkozy, I suspect his own wifes modelling exploits (and very nice they are too! ) may well actually make this all blow up in his rather silly Gaelic face, as being a really good example of why Burka wearing is in fact offering women respect whilst his overt support of the notion of women as sex objects is the precise opposite.

So for me Rasta hair, wooly hats, burkas, skull caps, bishops mitres, dog collars and so on are all a no no IMHO.

A politician in the UK would be rightly questioned deeply making statements like Sarkozy's, however they do things slightly differently in France, and his comments must be viewed with that perspective in your mind. The French State is determinedly both secular and non diverse, they refuse to allow for Racial differences as we do in this country, not for them the endless ethnic backgrounds questionnaires, in France one is French, and that's it. not Arab French, or Swiss white French, or Algerian, nothing, just French...

So with that in mind then the Burka is easily UN-French, it's not part of the hereditary, nor forms any part of French Culture, nor does it fit the culture of Equality of the sexes. I can see why he said it, whether he could have said it here remains a different question.

surely this is sexual discrimination too but bibles arent banned...

New International Version (©1984)
"'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"When a woman has her monthly period, she will be unclean for seven days. Those who touch her will be unclean until evening.

King James Bible
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

American King James Version
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the even.

American Standard Version
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be in her impurity seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

Bible in Basic English
And if a woman has a flow of blood from her body, she will have to be kept separate for seven days, and anyone touching her will be unclean till evening.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The woman, who at the return of the month, hath her issue of blood, shall be separated seven days.

Darby Bible Translation
And if a woman have a flux, and her flux in her flesh be blood, she shall be seven days in her separation, and whoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

English Revised Version
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be in her impurity seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

Webster's Bible Translation
And if a woman shall have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the evening.

World English Bible
"'If a woman has a discharge, and her discharge in her flesh is blood, she shall be in her impurity seven days: and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening.

Young's Literal Translation
'And when a woman hath an issue -- blood is her issue in her flesh -- seven days she is in her separation, and any one who is coming against her is unclean till the evening.

and heres the qurans version

In Surah 2:222
"And they ask you about menstruation. Say: the place of menstruation is a hurt and a pollution; therefore keep away from the women during her menstrual discharge and do not go near such a place until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him) constantly, and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean

Only an idiot thinks that burka (or other similar gear) wearing is anything to do with respect. It is a tribal custom from societies where women have a value that is measured in camels, and has no place in our society. It boils my piss to hear people babbling about "respecting other peoples cultures" and sim'lar bollox. Some things are (as close as dammit) objectively wrong, and this treatment of women is one of them.

(Now I hope this pro-fem ramt will help me get laid 🙂 )

So for me Rasta hair, wooly hats, [s]burkas[/s], skull caps, bishops mitres, dog collars and so on are all a no no IMHO.

None of which cover the wearer completely and (hopefully) none are forced onto anyone before they leave the house. Its about freedom. You can argue that the wearer choses to wear the Burka. If you do you dont know the society they come from.

Kimbers, I'm not sure I understand your point. The bible was written 2000 years ago, the people that wrote it had different views about menstruation to you. the fact that the bible is translated now and again, and all those references are still there* has what sort of bearing on the French president not liking a particular form of Middle Eastern culture?

*bearing in mind the Bible has all sorts of other non-PC views regarding slaves, shellfish, Ocelots etc etc...

You can argue that the wearer choses to wear the Burka. If you do you dont know the society they come from.

Wot he sed.

There are so many muslim women in my home town covered from head to toe in sheets that I dont think covering their eyes in a bit of netting would make any real difference.

Storm in a tea cup. Many Muslims in France - virtually all from North Africa = no burkas.

There are plenty of young girls who go out dressed like prostitutes, think that is probably more worthy of banning than a burka?

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/sarkozy-calls-for-sexier-burkas-200906241851/ ]The Mash's view on the subject.[/url]

Old Mo obviously doesn't know his women otherwise it'd say "keep away from the women BEFORE her menstrual discharge"

There are so many muslim women in my home town covered from head to toe in sheets that I dont think covering their eyes in a bit of netting would make any real difference.

You dont live in Dewsbury do you? I wonder what these women are told from a young age? Are they told that all white women are inpure and prostitutes? I still remember my old Indian girlfriend being called a slag, slapper, shame on Muslims by a group of lads playing cricket. When she said she Hindu/Indian and **** off - thats when they shouted she was a whore anyway (probably meanning she was with a white guy). God I love inbred village idiots.

If the purpose of this proposed ban is about women's rights, are there other policies being proposed that deal with the institutions and behaviours present in society that cause some women to be oppressed? e.g. is something being done about the traditions which force women to dress in particular ways?

Whilst we're on the subject I find the concept of covering up young girls in the same garb as utterly repugnant. Who exactly are they protecting their "modesty" from? YUK!!! 😳

It doesn't exactly do alot for integrating into British society does it? Quite the opposite, such high visibility separation is actually damaging and highly provocative imo

As said before, its subjugation. Coverings one hair/dressing modestly? Ok. However Taleban-style oppression here in the west? No thank you.

Are we sure that in today's western society these women are actually forced to wear the burka? My personal view is that it's a fashion statement. In these times where differences between Muslim and western societies are being made apparent, surely there are people who will migrate to either pole?

Just in case this was aimed at me :-

DrJ - Member
Only an idiot thinks that burka (or other similar gear) wearing is anything to do with respect

Could I just point out that I never said it was. Merely that Sarkozies wifes nude modelling exploits are likely to turn his argument on his head for him, and have the pro burka lobby arguing that their culture respects women and thats why they cover up, as opposed to Mr and Mrs Sarkozys attitude to women as a sex object. Not agreeing or disgreeing with either point.

It doesn't exactly do alot for integrating into British society does it? Quite the opposite, such high visibility separation is actually damaging and highly provocative imo

What about punks? goths? Rangers and Celtic fans? Each of these groups dress in ways that express their difference and separation from others. Or does it only count when we're talking about religion?

I don't see your point, I can't remember the last tinme I saw goth parents dressing their kids up like goths in order to protect their modesty? And even the most hardened footy fan doesn't make their kid wear a football kit every day of their life.

hora - Member
As said before, its subjugation. Coverings one hair/dressing modestly? Ok. However Taleban-style oppression here in the west? No thank you.

MMM if there is one MAN alive today to comment on the treatment of women with respect I am confident in saying it is you "i would do her" Hora

Perhaps more of them would uncover if less of us were like you?
Perhaps your oggling is the oppression that leads them to cover up?
and dressing modestly as the Koran calls it

What evidence are you all using to insist theyare forced to wear it BTW?
Hearsay?

Here's one to throw in.

If a non-muslim woman goes to a strictly muslim country, she is forced to cover up, to prevent her from offending the local community (and could face serious punishment if she failed to do so).

Yet if we asked strict muslim women visting the UK to NOT cover up because it "offends" us, we'd get no end of verbal about how we're infringing their religious rights (although probably from their husbands/religious leaders rather than the women themselves).

That doesn't seem anything like fair and equal treatment to me, so I think the french may have the better attitude. It's just a matter of perspective of whether its "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "do unto others as they are doing unto you"

Frankly, f... religion. All and any of it.

Mr Edwards ...actually depends on the Muslim country but overall a reasonable point

My last bit as off home now

How many of you actually know any Muslim women to ask? (must be no one as their family/men folk never let them out without a male escort and don’t allow them to talk to any one not related to them eh :roll:)

I work in a multicultural area with a very high Muslim population and Muslim schools. I have worked in these schools (some single sex) and have never once had anyone say anything to me about my gender or refuse to work with me including parents. I have asked some about the wearing of it and all of them do this because they had a deep and heart felt believe (wrong mind all religion is nonsense) that they wished to follow the wording of the Koran and obey the word of God.

They would laugh if you asked them if they felt oppressed and point at the scantily clad females who were dressing for men (their words) and say that that was oppression..they might just have a point you know.
I also met a couple at 18 who were married and I though straight away arranged marriage from family etc ...turned out they met on Facebook and family was furious as they were to young to marry at 18.

They are not, in so many ways , as un westernised as you all seem to think but they are Muslim.

Like many STW debates I doubt facts will make much difference to this opinion swapping so I will leave it to you all I am sure RB will continue the defence in my absence

What evidence are you all using to insist theyare forced to wear it BTW?

I find the wearing of Cartier watches deeply offensive.

The wearers are clearly flaunting their opulence - there is absolutely no other reason why anyone should choose to spend several thousands of pounds on a gadget which only tells the time.

The intentions are clear, ie : to state to everyone else "I am superior to you, and you are not worthy".

This is highly insulting to people like me who are struggling during these difficult times.

Furthermore, Cartier watch wearers [i]themselves[/i] are victims. Forced by intense social pressures, they feel duty-bound to invest large amounts of their disposable income on pointless timepieces, when simply looking at the time on their mobile phones (as I do) would be perfectly sufficient.

So I reckon that it's high time the government stepped in and banned the wearing of Cartier watches. Firstly to protect the sensitivities of people like me. And secondly, to protect the unfortunate wearers of these pointless contraptions.

.

Baseball caps........... [i]deeply, deeply,[/i] offensive. They conjure up an image of the wearer being a total ****wit who is completely incapable of thinking for himself, and relies solely on information provided in monosyllabic terms by the daily red-top tabloids.

Ban this diabolical attire. And save these wretched creatures from their palpable inability to dress themselves.

Of course now watch all the bearded sandal-wearing 'free-range' liberals come crawling out of the woodwork, as they talk about the so-called 'human rights' of these individuals to wear what the choose, and how the state 'doesn't have the right' to interfere !

Good point Ernie, but what's your view on burkas? 😯

but what's your view on burkas ?

Well I definitely wouldn't wear one.

So yes of course they should be banned.

I think the police should be given full powers of arrest in these matters.

Probably a good idea if the police were also given the powers to inspect merchandise being sold at clothing retail outlets.

shopkeepers, banks, and petrol stations appear to.

I have to remove my (motorbike) crash helmet to use them .......

I might be wrong (and to be fair I often am :D) but I was under the impression that the burqa isn't specifically mentioned in the Qu'ran and that it's a cultural thing particular to Muslims rather than a religous thing as such.

The Qu'ran merely says something along the lines of women should protect their modesty - it's the culture over the years which has developed the burqa and chador.

all religions hate women....

Well, that's pretty much wrong as a wrong thing. The three 'religions of the book' certainly but even then I know Marian catholics who reject much of the doctrinal teachings of their church and see Mary as a Goddess in her own right who is to be worshipped over and above the male trinity. And that's just catholicism, ffs.

Banning peoples clothes? Nah,leave it out. If they want to look like dickheads then let 'em.

[img] http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03/burkaburberryAP_450x350.jp g" target="_blank">http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03/burkaburberryAP_450x350.jp g"/> [/img]

whatever.

What evidence are you all using to insist theyare forced to wear it BTW?
Dunno Junkyard, guess your right. I bet arranged marriages are all consensual as well with no pressure huh.

Nice leap and avoidance of the issue
Yes arranged is CONSENSUAL and FORCED in non consensual. Check the law.
Clearly the low rates of divorce in the Liberal west (and the separation rates amongst those who cohabit - which are actually higher) shows our cultural superiority in the marriage/relationship department.

Dobski The Koran asks both genders to dress modestly for men this means being covered from the naval downwards and for women from the head downwards (there is debate as to whether hands and face are ok though

Tell the faithful women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not display their beauty except what is apparent of it [hands/face possible interpretation], and to extend their scarf to cover their bosom
Koran, 24:31 (English translation)

[doffs cap]Very funny post Mr. Lynch

According to one Muslim woman all that is required is for arms and legs and torso to be covered. There is no requirement for a scarf or headcovering. The burka is a Saudi creation adopted by male dominated societies to subjugate women. I really believe some more aggressive Muslim women in western society have adopted the burka as a '**** you' to westerners, rather like hoodies have been adopted by certain segments of western teen culture. I could be wrong, but that's certainly the way their attitude comes across to me.

As the burka isn't a religious thing, we can't be accused of stirring muslim hatred by banning it.

Junkyard no one tells me what to wear nor who my girlfriend lives with, her marital status or what to wear. Stop your appeasement please. I'm a known Islamaphobe. I find it repulsive and thats a off a forum/serious personal view. We live in a democracy. We dont live under Sharia nor (if you want to go broader) a Catholic state either. I know you'll argue inbetween the lines that not all Muslims have to go the whole shebang but Im not interested. Seriously.

My only issue, is that natural expression between people largely comes in the form of body language, as well as spoken words.

If someone wishes to communicate with me, in an open honest fasion, I expect to see their body language, so that I can judge if what I am being told is correct. I know telephone communications fall into this, but you cant turn your back on technology, and I also have a right to put a phone down.

With that, should someone wish to interact with me, in a way I cannot judge the veracity of their actions, then I, finding that behaviour socially rude, reserve the right to ignore the person who does not do me the courtesey of being willing to interact with me in anopen honest way.

Wear your burka by all means, you have that freedom, but don't expect me to respect you for it. Thats my freedom of expression. I wont offend you, as manners are important, andI also realise the responsibility of my right not to offend, with my freedom to chose who and how I interact.

My objection is to the face being covered. As a society we value seeing faces and it is our main form of identification. I feel offended if the face is covered since it means that I am not being treated with respect.

As a Northern Irishman I feel my human rights are being breeched as we are never allowed to wear our national head dress. I'm banned from banks post offices, hotels, hospitals anywhere you can imagine.

My civil rights are being infringed at every cut and turn. When everyone else in society has rights the people of Ulster are constantly denied theres. And for why?!

It makes my blood boil!!!!

Please save our national head dress - GIVE GENEROUSLY!

[img] [/img]

[b]hora[/b]

the British Runnymede Trust defined Islamophobia as the "dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, to the fear and dislike of all Muslims," stating that it also refers to the practice of discriminating against Muslims by excluding them from the economic, social, and public life of the nation. It includes the perception that Islam has no values in common with other cultures, is inferior to the West and is a violent political ideology rather than a religion.[4]

I dont really care how anyone dresses it is their choice Hora you know like we have in a democracy.
As far as I can see there is only one person here saying what females can and cannot wear ...who is oppressing who? Who is imposing their view on who?

I totally suppport the French and less bowing down to any religion and any sexism.

If you don't like the views of the country-then move out. If I went to Iran I would obey their rules. If I go to France or England etc I'd obey their rules too.

About time someone stood up to anti social ideology. Sorry if I sound offensive to any religious peeps but it's not the dark ages anymore.

Even Islam is misunderstood by it's followers. If God does exist-would god want you to kill and cover yourself head to toe? Bull$hit.

TS: I was coming to that .... 🙄

Zaskar - seconded.

but it's not the dark ages anymore.

Sure it's still the dark ages.

That's why we can tell people what they should, and shouldn't wear.

That's why we can show intolerance to other people's religious views.

Down with the age of enlightenment, long live the dark ages. Burn the witches.

[i]If you don't like the views of the country-then move out. If I went to Iran I would obey their rules. If I go to France or England etc I'd obey their rules too.[/i]

Fair enough, but both France and England are (to all intents and purposes) free countries, so if women want to wear the burka then that's up to them and their families. Imagine the hysterical reaction if someone told Sikhs that they shouldn't wear turbans. And is the "burka oppresses women" argument any more valid than the tabloids and stupid magazines that put women under pressure to be horribly thin?

May I add that I do beleive in God. However I dont beleive in a fellow man telling me that he has a direct-contact with God whereas I don't. A sort of modern-day witchdoctor, one upmanship. I don't beleive in organised religion, with control parameters. Sorry yet again if I offend anyone with these views.

The Burka should be strongly discouraged in Britain as it's offensive for anyone to cover their face in western culture.

As Western women respect the culture when visiting arab countries by covering up, Muslims who live here should respect our culture.

We tolerate all faiths in the UK, far more than than in most parts of the Middle East.

It's a simple give and take compromise - something we Brits excel at IMHO. Or would becoming tolerant be regarded as an erosion of a Muslim's human rights and we'd get sued?

Let's have a bit of balance shall we!

hora - Member

I dont beleive in a fellow man telling me that he has a direct-contact with God whereas I don't

Sure you have .......... you can email direct :

moderator@singletrackworld.com

:lol:PMSL at ernie_lynch

Sure you have .......... you can email direct :

and get through to some blokes who look likes extras on [i]Das Boot?[/i] 😕

G - Member

TS: I was coming to that ....

Had to happen mate! 😆

We tolerate all faiths in the UK, far more than than in most parts of the Middle East.

It's a simple give and take compromise - something we Brits excel at IMHO. Or would becoming tolerant be regarded as an erosion of a Muslim's human rights and we'd get sued?

Spongebob - you don't think we've reached saturation point then?

"I dont think we should be shy anymore about telling Muslim women that full face burka is rude and unaceptable in the West."

Since when? Nothing wrong at all with covering your face. If you personally find it offensive that's fair enough, but don't pretend it's some universal norm, because it's just not.

Actually thinking about it theres a few munters I know who would look better in a burka...

Fair enough, but both France and England are (to all intents and purposes) free countries, so if women want to wear the burka then that's up to them and their families.

Do they want to, though - that's the point, innit?

Imagine the hysterical reaction if someone told Sikhs that they shouldn't wear turbans.

IIRC it is already illegal in France to wear clothes that show your religion in (not too sure...) state employment, and that the FIRST person to be prosecuted under that law was a Sikh.

And is the "burka oppresses women" argument any more valid than the tabloids and stupid magazines that put women under pressure to be horribly thin?

Maybe not, but no-one is saying "if a girl wants to die of starvation, it's her choice"; they're campaigning to end that pressure

Since when? Nothing wrong at all with covering your face. If you personally find it offensive that's fair enough, but don't pretend it's some universal norm, because it's just not

Covering your face is not offensive - in fact in some cases I recommend it. Being obliged to cover your face by a custom that classes women alongside barnyard animals is offensive, at best.

full face burka is rude and unaceptable in the West.

I know that it's not suppose to have [i]that[/i] effect, but I actually find it a bit of a turn on.

It's like having a 'gift wrapped' babe to me.

Am I sick ?

Yes.

it's offensive for anyone to cover their face in western culture.

No it's not. In some cases it should be positively encouraged; gurning dimwits on television (I'd welcome never having to see 'Wossy' or Ross Kemp's idiotic fizzogs again) and the less aesthetically pleasing. Imagine: Buffoons and ugly women hidden away. It would be, quite literally, a godsend! Insha'Allah!

Not sick - just getting that Taliban vibe.

As a Muslim friend said to me - "can you imagine how many poems are written in my language about a woman's eyes?"

I had the misfortune to be a teenager when girls were wearing long skirts. If I saw a knee I'd **** myself senseless for days. People go with what they have, and a religion, or culture, that tries to stop people thinking about sex is going to fail sure as eggs is eggs.

It's like having a 'gift wrapped' babe to me.

Am I sick ?

Not at all, secrecy and seduction are closely related things. More of a lucky dip tho', eh?

More of a lucky dip tho', eh?

Could be a chocolate truffle or a boiled Brussels sprout.

26.
DrJ - Member

More of a lucky dip tho', eh?

Could be a chocolate truffle or a boiled Brussels sprout.
Posted 4 minutes ago # Report-Post

Spongebob - you don't think we've reached saturation point then?

Not at all! A multi-cultural Britain is enriching in many positve ways. I embrace it. This is not a race issue! Why can't people get their heads round the fact that tolerance of different cultures and religions is a two way street? That means we all live together and make compromises. If one religious group decide they want to go off the end of the scale and impose an alien culture to the extent that it disregards and disrespects other cultures, they must surely realise they are going to be met with contempt. There are wise people in all cultures, all walks of life, so what the heck is going on here?

Balance! That is what I avocate. We need to look for what we have in common, not what sets us apart!

Religion can easily become highly divisive. For the past decade or so, it has become nuch more of an issue in the UK, but I don't really know why. We all used to live in relative peace, but look at what has happened in places like Bradford for example - a fiercely divided community - very sad!

Some say we are experiencing the Islamification of Europe and that these extremist Imam preachers of hate have come and poisened the minds of good European citizens. I don't think people are that stupid are they? Conversely, opposers of these ideas irrationally react by shrieking "racist", that the objectors must surely be akin to Hitler and the Nazis etc. It is NOT racism! It's this sort of bullying reaction, the and irrational silencing of free speech, that means for example; idiots like the BNP not getting the opportunity fully expose their nasty hidden agenda - to victimise good people, people who contribute a great deal to society, but who happen to have the wrong colour skin. We can't debate why the Muslim community have been ramping up their crusade to convert ethnic communities to a much more authoritarian Islamic doctrine. Challenging this would be so politically incorrect, but what about the abuses that people are suffering as a result of this? It is not ok to beat your wife, or to disrespect Jews, or homosexuals. I listened to BBC R4 woman's hour about a group of muslim women who are in fear of their lives. Honour killings, forced marriages. All sorts of abuses of human rights brought about by Islamic culture. Sorry guys, but this matter needs to be aired!

I stand for peace, freedom and anti-stupidity. No religion fits in with this i'm afraid. Superstition is something born out of fear and ignorance. We really need to rid ourselves of this mumbo jumbo!

We need to be able to ask why there is so much hostility towards British culture. Why so many good people have rejected compromise and respect for others. My guess is they have either been bullied into it, brainwashed, or both.

(waiting for some unthinking person to call me a racist or right wing extremist - i'm neither, so don't waste your time)

I'll carry on observing. I hope my take on the situation turns out to be wrong.

That's terrific Spongebob and very well put. In Ulster I always stood for the rights of man, live and let live, the populist vote - but my views, like yours, will become unimportant when swept away in religous fundamentalism be that Christian, Islam, Jewish or whatever - you, me and every other twit on here will never be interviewed by the media, our voices will never be heard as we are too moderate for their tastes - unpallatable maybe but true. The fact is as with NI this country will slide into minority rule - it already has - do 'normal' people get air time? No.

It's the OJ Simpsons, the Michael Jacksons, the Gerry Adams, the Abu Hamza al-Masris who are listened to. Moderate voices such as yours and (surprisingly) mine are lost in todays world as they do not sell one inch of news print...

I feel violated if women wearing burka look at me. I feel naked as they check me out from head to toe. I want to sue. It is a gross violation of my human rights.

"We can't debate why the Muslim community have been ramping up their crusade to convert ethnic communities to a much more authoritarian Islamic doctrine. Challenging this would be so politically incorrect"

I like your post, but the fact is this IS being debated at all levels, it's not a taboo subject at all.

Northwind - Member

"We can't debate why the Muslim community have been ramping up their crusade to convert ethnic communities to a much more authoritarian Islamic doctrine. Challenging this would be so politically incorrect"

I like your post, but the fact is this IS being debated at all levels, it's not a taboo subject at all.

Government actively discussing this subject then...

Government actively discussing this subject then...

That is correct Slapper - well done !

In fact some would say that it is something of an obsession with this government.

Gordon Brown :

[i]"I want to update the House, as I promised in July, on the measures we are taking at home - following the incidents on June 29th and June 30th - both to root out terrorism and to strengthen the resilience of communities to resist extreme influence measures that to succeed will require not just military and security resources but more policing, more intelligence, and an enhanced effort to win hearts and minds.

From the Home Office budget, from now until 2011, an additional £240 million will finance counter terrorism policing - focused as much on preventing the next generation of terrorists as pursuing current targets.

And this will include additional funding for further training of our 3,500 neighbourhood police teams to deal with radicalisation in their local communities.

I can confirm £70 million is being invested in community projects devoted to countering violent extremism.

So to deal with the challenge posed by this terrorist threat we have to do more, working with communities in our countries:

# First to challenge extremist propaganda and support alternative voices

# Second, to disrupt the promoters of violent extremism by strengthening our institutions and supporting individuals who may be targeted

# Third, to increase the capacity of communities to resist and reject violent extremism

# And fourth, to address issues of concern exploited by ideologues and where by emphasising our shared values across communities we can both celebrate and act upon what unites us

This will be achieved not by one single programme or initiative and it won't be achieved overnight.

It is a generational challenge which requires sustained work over the long term and by a range of actions in schools, colleges, universities, faith groups and youth clubs; by engaging particular young people through the media, culture, sport and arts; and by acting against extremist influences operating on the internet and in institutions from prisons to universities and some places of worship.

As part of intensifying measures to isolate extremism, a new unit bringing together police and security intelligence and research will identify, analyse and assess not just the inner circle of extremist groups but those at risk of falling under their influence - and share their advice and insights.

Building on initial roadshows of mainstream Islamic scholarship around the country, which have already attracted over 70,000 young people, and an internet site which has reached far more, we will sponsor at home and then abroad, including for the first time in ****stan, a series of national and local events to counter extremist propaganda.

And the next stage will draw on the work commissioned by the Economic and Social Research Council, Kings College and the Royal Society for Arts on how best to deal with radicalisation at home and abroad.

One central issue is how to balance extremist views supporting terrorism which appear on the internet and media.

The Home Secretary is inviting the largest global technology and internet companies to work together to ensure that our best technical expertise is galvanised to counter online incitement to hatred.

I also welcome the decision by the Royal Television Society and Society of Newspaper Editors to hold a conference on how to ensure accurate and balanced reporting of issues related to terrorism in the media.

To ensure charities are not exploited by extremists, a new unit in the Charity Commission will strengthen governance and accountability.

A specialist unit in the Prisons Service will be tasked with stopping extremists using prison networks to plot future activities.

And because young people in the criminal justice system are especially vulnerable to extremist influences, we are making further funding available through the Youth Justice Board, the National Offenders Management Service and the many voluntary agencies that work with young people in trouble to support young people who may be targeted for recruitment by extremist groups.

Following evidence that some of those involved in promoting violent extremism have made use of outdoor activity sports centres and facilities, we are working with Sport England to provide guidance for the sector to ensure that these facilities are not abused.

And backed up by a new website to share best practice, a new board of experts will advise local authorities, local councillors and local communities on tackling those promoting hate.

e have had mosques in the UK for more than a hundred years, serving local communities well.

These communities tell me that mosques have a much wider role beyond their core spiritual purpose in providing services, educating young people and building cohesion - and the majority already work very hard to reject violent extremism.

As the newly constituted Mosques and Imams National Advisory Body recognises however, the governance of mosques could be strengthened to help serve communities better and to challenge those who feed hate.

Our consultations with Muslim communities emphasise the importance of the training of imams, including English language requirements - and the Secretary for Communities will be announcing an independent review to examine, with the communities, how to build the capacity of Islamic seminaries, learning from other faith communities as well as experience overseas.

In addition to updated advice for universities on how to deal with extremism on the campus, the Secretary for Skills and the Higher Education Minister will invite universities to lead a debate on how we maintain academic freedom whilst ensuring that extremists can never stifle debate or impose their views.

And we will now consult also on how we can support further education colleges as well as universities.

And the Secretary of State for Culture is working with the museums, libraries and archives council to agree a common approach to deal with inflammatory and extremist material that some now seek to distribute through public libraries, whilst also protecting freedom of speech.

We know that young people of school age can be exposed to extremist messages.

The Secretary of State for Children will be convening a new forum of headteachers to advise on what more we can do to protect young people and build bridges across communities.

And to ensure young people have the opportunity to learn about diversity and faith in modern Britain, we will work in partnership with religious education teachers to promote the national framework for teaching religious education in schools including making sure children learn about all faiths.

An advisory group will work with local communities to support citizenship education classes run by mosque schools in Bradford and elsewhere.

And I can announce that one essential part of this will be to twin schools of different faiths with our £2 million pound school linking programme, supported by a new national website and School Linking Network.

Mr Speaker, it is by seeking to build on shared interests and shared values that we will isolate extremists and foster understanding across faiths.

Mr Speaker, there is no greater priority than the safety and security of our people and building the strongest possible relationships across all faiths and communities - and I believe it possible, with the actions we are proposing, to build a stronger consensus that will both root out terrorist extremism and build more vibrant and cohesive communities."[/i]

How's that ?

How's that ?

Weak.

How many individuals does it take to wage a terrorist campaign - with tacit, if not actual support of their communities? You really have no idea.

It's a sticking plaster on a problem that's here already. 99.9999% of Irish people are fine its the 0.0001% thats the issue - same with any religion, race or creed. Your government speaks and you believe - really without question?

Be as glib as you like - what Ober Lieutenant Von Brun does not seem or want to understand religion in its tribal sense - my god is bigger than your god etc. That drivel above demonstrates that in its entirity.

Truth is I don't have the answers, but the truth lies in people fully engaging and being part of this country.

Might have a look at this in the morning.

Is there actually anything of any intelligence, or is it just the usual Little Englander bullshit you usually get on here (can't be bothered to trawl through all the posts)?

Is Hora spouting his usual Tesco's own brand bollocks?

Ban everything, I say. And let people do whatever they please.

I only got up for a piss...

a custom that classes women alongside barnyard animals is offensive, at best.

Who told you about that???? I deny it all, anyway that last sheep baa'ed at me in a provocative way and wiggled its bottom, definately a willing partner..

Rudeboy, not like you. Usually you post a 5,000 essay on every post

He just got up for a piss. When he needs a shit we can expect a full Rudist monograph complete with mis-spelling and pretend gangsta hand gestures.

listened to BBC R4 woman's hour about a group of muslim women who are in fear of their lives. Honour killings, forced marriages. All sorts of abuses of human rights brought about by Islamic culture.

It is true every womans refuge centre in the UK is full of Muslim women ...the staff there often comment about how amasing it is that no non muslim women are ever seen in these places or assaulted, abused, beaten or raped by their partners or husbands and what an amasing culture of tolerance and respect we have for women that means we NEVER mistreat them 🙄

Junkyard shut up. Seriously.