[Closed] This Obesity Thing

Poached eggs on bacon sounds better, tbh, but doesn't fit my (ill conceived?) notion of low fat. Need to learn more about this. It's not that 5:2 hasn't worked, in fact I can see myself on 5:2 or a mod thereof for ever, but if I can improve my diet on the normal days as well, even better.

Worth doing the research. Low fat is increasingly thought to be a bad thing ( government guidelines introduced the notion of low fat and high carbs in the 1980's and is part of the reason for the current problem)
Actual carb intake varies but 150 g would be an average moderate carb intake target. Steady state ( ie not targetiing fat loss) an athlete would require somewhere between 3-5g of carbs per day per KG of body mass.

GDA for carbs from official sources is set at the 300g piemonster mentions

Interstingly The GDAs were set by a collaboration of UK government, consumer organisations and the [b]food industry[/b], [b]overseen by the Institute of Grocery Distribution (IGD)[/b].

You have to question IMO how good some of these recommendations are (given their agendas) and on what research they are actually based

Couple of interesting articles here from a very well respected nutritionist

[url= http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/2012/02/13/menu-calories-a-letter-to-the-minister-of-health/ ]Letter to the minister[/url]

and on training and utilising fat stores

[url= http://m****sblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/fat-adaptation-fuel-efficiency-part-ii.html ]utilising fat stores[/url]

So instead of porridge with mixed in banana and raisins, I should have bacon and poached eggs? Awesome! I'll try it !

Cool, MikeWW's link is basically exactly the same conclusions as I've drawn 🙂

I'm not trying to lose weight. I'll probably stick with the porridge and honey, I like it and it helps me go to the toilet. I don't eat meat so bacon's out. I take painkillers a lot in the winter so often I just can't face any food. At those times I can usually manage porridge. I don't eat ready meals, pies, pasties, packets, jars etc. Make most of what I eat from scratch. Do eat veg, raw roasted or boiled. Nuts, lots of oily fish, proper butter (not that chemical collision known as low fat spread - which tastes revolting anyway). I fry or roast in Olive Oil. Most of what I eat is organic.

About fat, really fat, people ie Big Body Squad. I feel: yuk! Gods! Yuk! Then I feel: oh, what a shame, something bad must have happened to you. And then: bloody hell! There are people dying of starvation in parts of this world and look at you. I try to be sympathetic but not very successfully, perhaps as someone who has overcome so much by myself, I do have a bit of a 'Come on, get on top of this' attitude to others. Having said that I am kind and helpful and if I was in a situation where my help was needed I would give it (but not to reach for a bar of chocolate).

Thanks for sharing that sugernaut. Sorry to hear of your problems and I hope things gets better for you, and I agree with ton that you should get some help if you're not getting it already.

It's no problem. I read a couple of pages of the thread and thought I would highlight the fact that for some people it's more complicated than it should be. It's strange, I tend to feel like a prisoner trapped in my own life, and I'm not sure how I got here. It seems impossible to make a permanent change for the better.

I have tried/am trying to get help on the NHS, whether they can actually provide proper help remains to be seen. Unfortunately I cannot afford "private" help, although I imagine that would be ideal.

It's strange to say, but I can't remember the last day where I have not been in a battle with myself. It's rare that I can eat a meal without panicking or purging or binge eating till I'm ill. It's strange that this becomes normality if done for long enough. I guess some people just become to exhausted to carry on, admit defeat and become another "number" of obese people.

I'm not sure how, as a nation, we're going to get thinner. But I think bigger changes need to be made on a societal level, rather than just telling people to eat healthly or do more exercise.

Hi Sugarnaut. This book was recommended to me 'Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy' by Dr David Burns. Widely available online for a few pounds. I thought "Oh yeah, another self-help book hmmm?". But I bought it anyway, and in the face of a severe depressive/agoraphobic episode, I put two fingers up to the black dog, and worked my way through the book. It made a HUGE difference.

On the basis that it's only a few quid, and won't do you any harm, why not try it?

Good luck x

I'm 7lb less Obese than I was at the start of the year 🙂

Thanks to all on this and other threads for keeping me focused. I must admit, i'm still going to try this less carby breakfast in an hour 🙂

Tell you what.... I don't actually care if the breakfast 'works' or not for today.... it WAS LOVELY... and totally great.

Interstingly The GDAs were set by a collaboration of UK government, consumer organisations and the food industry, overseen by the Institute of Grocery Distribution (IGD).

Have you checked to see if the research your working from hasn't been sponsored by Danepak? 🙂

LOL
I have been pretty fortunate most of my life and have never had a weight issue and have been very healthy. However at 51 and after a lot of overseas travel and a broken collar bone last October ( that I am still on the mend from) I found with my slowing (with age ) metabolism that I was starting to put fat on.
I wanted to lose the excess but for me I needed to understand the science behind what I was trying to do. As I researched things I was astounded my the amount of conflicting advice and how much misleading information there was. But if you dig deep enough it all starts to make sense and the link (letter to the minister) from Barry Murray encapsulates things really well. IMO what really surprised me was how startling the impact of less sugar ( which is sugar plus carbs (as carbs are converted to sugar)) has. No cravings, very few times I'm hungry and even then very manageable.But you do need to understand when your body needs carbs as well.
I honestly think that with the right government advice and some (significant) changes in legislation some big changes to obesity levels could be achieved.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jan/13/sugar-how-to-give-up-11-easy-steps

I'm gonna watch this with interest, I think....

Dispatches next Monday - 8pm on C4; Are you addicted to sugar?

http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/crsrkk/dispatches--are-you-addicted-to-sugar-channel-4-dispatches

IMO what really surprised me was how startling the impact of less sugar ( which is sugar plus carbs (as carbs are converted to sugar)) has. No cravings, very few times I'm hungry and even then very manageable.But you do need to understand when your body needs carbs as well.

It's this bit which i sort of get, but i sort of don't (and as we know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing)

Aren't all vegetables essentially carbohydrate sources too? And so then you get into the high vs low GI types of carbohydrates, because from my understanding it's not carbs that are particularly the issue as the wrong sorts of carbs and the impact they have on your insulin response. So I know that (in general) root vegetables such as potatos, carrots, etc. supposedly have a bigger impact in the insulin response / fat storing mechanisms, but broccoli and cauliflower have much less impact?

tgheotherjony
You are absolutely right on allcounts. But it is the lower carb density ( for want of a better expression) that limits the impact. Potatoes ideally need to be avoided because of the high carb content. You are also right that other root vegetables have a higher carb content than those above ground ( brocolli and cauliflower are both great) but they are still low compared to other food stuffs. I was talking for fat loss of around 150g of carbs a day which is very sustainable. If someone wanted to lose fat more quickly ( and it gets harder and you have to be far more careful with hydration) then you would lower carb input to say 50g a day.( essentially you move far closer to an Atkins type diet)

It seems impossible to make a permanent change for the better.

It might seem impossible now but things can and do change. I've been in a position before where I felt there was no way out.

I have tried/am trying to get help on the NHS, whether they can actually provide proper help remains to be seen. Unfortunately I cannot afford "private" help, although I imagine that would be ideal.

Sadly, the NHS is quite limited in what it can provide for people in your situation. I was lucky enough to be able to afford private help through family assistance. There must be some charities that could help though?

Aren't all vegetables essentially carbohydrate sources too? And so then you get into the high vs low GI types of carbohydrates, because from my understanding it's not carbs that are particularly the issue as the wrong sorts of carbs and the impact they have on your insulin response. So I know that (in general) root vegetables such as potatos, carrots, etc. supposedly have a bigger impact in the insulin response / fat storing mechanisms, but broccoli and cauliflower have much less impact?

Spot on. The actual figure you need to look at is the glycaemic LOAD. When they test GI they test the amount of the thing that contains 100g of carbs, I think (or something like that). So roast parsnips come out high, cos you need to eat a load of them to get 100g of carbs. However a normal serving doens't contain that many carbs.

Ideally we'd calculate the insulin index of foods which shows you how a food afffects your insulin levels. This is the basis of the iDave diet and the one in the Four Hour Body. I think there's only a few published lists with not many foods in:

http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm

When they test GI they test the amount of the thing that contains 100g of carbs, I think (or something like that).

I should point out, that's GL which normalises the index to 100g of carbs (not including fibre). GI doesn't, which is its big failing. GI was a great first attempt to classify carb food sources, hugely important step - but has been bettered by GL. GL still isn't perfect IMO, but it is much better.

Either way, you're right - GL is the better index.

The glycemic index estimates how much each gram of available carbohydrate (total carbohydrate minus fiber) in a food raises a person's blood glucose level following consumption of the food, relative to consumption of pure glucose.[1] Glucose has a glycemic index of 100.
A practical limitation of the glycemic index is that it does not take into account the amount of carbohydrate actually consumed. A related measure, the glycemic load, factors this in by multiplying the glycemic index of the food in question by the carbohydrate content of the actual serving.

Bit confusing when some things have a higher GI but lower GL. Eg couscous has a higher GI than Quinoa, but a lower GL. You reckon we should believe the GL figure? I always thought couscous was basically made from white flour, like pasta, do it would seem odd if it was better for you than quinoa.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Glycemic_index_and_glycemic_load_for_100_foods.htm

I haven't read all of this yet, but it looks to be a fairly comprehensive explanation of the whole calories issue:

[url= http://thecaloriemythbook.com/ ]http://thecaloriemythbook.com/[/url]

http://thecaloriemythbook.com/

Snake oil.

@ grum

I might have been a bit mixed up there, GI is on the '100g of carbs' scale, but the GL is a better representation of what you eat as to get 100g of carbs from potatos you'd have to eat half a kilo of them, wheras to eat 100g of carbs from bread you need 200g...

I think we should believe both indexes 🙂 Another index worth looking into is the insulin index, which measures the insulin production in response to different foods.

Interestingly, on that index, it is things like fatty pastries that come out worst (i.e. high fat high processed sugar in general). They seem to cause a disproportionate response from the body, compared to what you might predict based on their fat or carb content.

Or to put it another way, there are things far worse than potatoes!

Ok, ta.

Interestingly, on that index, it is things like fatty pastries that come out worst (i.e. high fat high processed sugar in general). They seem to cause a disproportionate response from the body, compared to what you might predict based on their fat or carb content.

Mmmm just tucking into a croissant as we speak. 🙂

http://thecaloriemythbook.com/
Snake oil.

Certainly sets off all my BS alarm bells.

Bit confusing when some things have a higher GI but lower GL.

Wine gums = very high GI.
One wine gum = low GL.

Interestingly, on that index, it is things like fatty pastries that come out worst (i.e. high fat high processed sugar in general)

Yeah, fat and sugar interact with each other. Apparently high fat diet is perfectly healthy unless you have refined carbs with it which makes it really bad. This is where the fat = bad thing comes from, because we were all eating lots of refined carbs all along.

Wine gums = very high GI.
One wine gum = low GL.

Yeah that makes sense - I was being lazy and not really reading what GL means. 🙂

Doing the iDiet/4HB for 6 months or so seems to have changed the mass at which my body naturally wants to sit.

I'm naturally skinny and have always been able to eat anything and stay at pretty much dead on 75kg. Doing iDiet for 6month dropped me to about 66kg and, after going back to normal eating for a while, just under 70kg seems to be my new norm.

I guess I'm probably eating fewer high-GL carbs without really thinking about it, rather than having a permanently changed metabolism?

I think carefully about what we do and what we eat, as a family.

In terms of what we do, the biggest thing I think that keeps us healthy (as a young family; 2 kids <5) is being able to walk or cycle a lot. Almost all of our peers moved to the suburbs or countryside in recent years, whereas we've stuck in a area where walking and cycling are essential to daily life. In the 'burbs, I'd spend an hour or two a day commuting by car.

In terms of what we eat, it helps a lot that we make all our food. Pre-packed pizzas are our ready meals, but they're a once-a-month occurence at most. The rest of the time, we make veg or meat stews / curries in large quantities - to last a few days and give quick food / re-heat options.

I have lots of friends who are putting on weight. It's a lifestyle thing; not having the fundamentals in life (i.e. things you do / don't do every day) set up right to sustain good health or at least a healthy weight.

In terms of what we do, the biggest thing I think that keeps us healthy (as a young family; 2 kids <5) is being able to walk or cycle a lot.

I saw a report yesterday saying that there was a correlation between obesity rates and walkable neighbourhoods.

Fat people are fat because they eat to much. Anorexic are thin because they eat to little. The fat people come up with the normal lies: I have a low metabolic rate etc. Thin say they eat lots but just don't put on weight. Every experiment where they actual make sure they know exactly what the person is eating and the amount of exercise they do always shows they are lying. These are the worse type of lies, they are lying to themselves.

A neighbour of mine says he can eat whatever he wants and not put on weight. I checked he works away weekends. "I go straight from work to bed" It turns out all he has a day for 3 days is a sandwich or a bag of crisps "some days have both". My next question was: "you must have a massive scoff when you get back?" answer "no I am to tired I go straight to bed". His wife said "he can eat anything" and "the next minute he is dead fussy with his food difficult to find something he will eat". Seen him without a shirt he would have no problems getting work as an extra in concentration camp film. Mate recently died (obese) said he hardly eat anything. Found big tins of Quality Street and other chocolate hidden round the house.

What logical reason would result in a massive increase in obesity in 2 generation? Other than eating more calories than you need to maintain a healthy body weight? Anyone who Denies that the calories in calories out argument is in part the cause of the early death of 100,000s of people in Britain alone.

By the way obesity is measured by body fat not weight. Lots of children have been found to be Obese despite having a near normal body weight. The fat content of there body is to high relative to muscle content. If you went by weight alone all top body builders would be obese.

@sugarnaut, if you're still about....

It's no problem. I read a couple of pages of the thread and thought I would highlight the fact that for some people it's more complicated than it should be. It's strange, I tend to feel like a prisoner trapped in my own life, and I'm not sure how I got here. It seems impossible to make a permanent change for the better.

I have tried/am trying to get help on the NHS, whether they can actually provide proper help remains to be seen. Unfortunately I cannot afford "private" help, although I imagine that would be ideal.

I spiralled into eating disorder behaviour after I started to diet, calorie count and experiment with so-called "healthy" diets like Paleo, IFing, etc. I found I started to binge, and then panic afterwards and restrict, which would then make me ravenously hungry so I'd binge, etc, etc.

The thing that helped me was the Intuitive Eating book which I got on kindle, it's cheaper than a book, and they also have a website, which has a very kind and supportive online community. It really did encourage me to make peace with food, stop seeing food as being tied in with some kind of morality, and thinness as something that would make me a better person. I understood from reading the book (I eventually read it three times over, to understand the messages fully) that dieting does not and never will work, that the diet industry makes a profit from people's dieting attempts failing, and that being fat is a character defect or a moral failing is just baloney.

It's a tough process and it really does require mental toughness to be able to drown out diet talk, diet adverts, food advertising and all the conflicting messages we get about food and eating. But it is possible to heal your relationship with food if you want to. I felt a slave to food and dieting, even though I was preaching how great the Paleo diet was etc, and people were commenting how skinny I was, underneath I was mentally unhealthy, and I might have been a size 10, but I was bingeing in secret, anxious over eating, and thinking about food, or what I would and wouldn't eat, obsessively.

The 500 calories a day twice a week diet knocked off a quick stone and half of me. Which I put on after a long stay in hospital and very long convalescence. I am sticking with it forever as it has some very good health benefits.

Note I found no negative effects including exerciseing on "starvation days" and no problem sticking to it. Which must be psychological ie tomorrow I can eat what I want. No feelings hunger even. Opps I tend to wake up more during the night. It is slightly harder to get back to sleep. Normally I sleep like i am comatose.

Doing the iDiet/4HB for 6 months or so seems to have changed the mass at which my body naturally wants to sit.

I'm naturally skinny and have always been able to eat anything and stay at pretty much dead on 75kg. Doing iDiet for 6month dropped me to about 66kg and, after going back to normal eating for a while, just under 70kg seems to be my new norm.

identical to my experience. I dropped from 75kg to 68kg in 6 months 3 years ago. I'm now back to eating crap again whilst retaining the breakfast bit of the idave.

I so far haven't budged past 68 despite consuming loads of rubbish

Anyone who Denies that the calories in calories out argument is in part the cause

We're not denying it, we're saying it's an oversimplification that can be unhelpful.

The 500 calories a day twice a week diet knocked off a quick stone and half of me. Which I put on after a long stay in hospital and very long convalescence. I am sticking with it forever as it has some very good health benefits.

The 500 calories a day twice a week diet knocked off a quick stone and half of me. Which I put on after a long stay in hospital and very long convalescence

molgrips - Member
molgrips - Member
Anyone who Denies that the calories in calories out argument is in part the cause
We're not denying it, we're saying it's an oversimplification that can be unhelpful

.Have you literally just been released and that's why you've not read the preceding 17 pages?

.There was an article on the bbc suggesting that 5 days in 60 gives the same health benefits (more total calories though)

Here we go again.

Fat people are fat because they eat to much.

Crime is caused by criminals breaking the law.

Alcoholism is caused by drinking too much.

Shall we compile a list of some more of these incredibly useful nuggets of genius?

The only one I saw was the BBC programme where they were using the twice a week diet. I watched it twice.

I have been a right greedy barstard today.
porridge
tuna salad butty
fish n pea's

and I am off for a few pints on the way home............I am ****ed 😆

Thin say they eat lots but just don't put on weight.

I say this and it's true.

SD-253 -

Have you literally just been released and that's why you've not read the preceding 17 pages?

Yes