MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
You just keep believing that...
is that what pants you're going to wear tomorrowI control and affect my [b]under destiny[/b].
BTW Im hoping to go to Carlton Bank and Hamsterley on Sunday, anyone fancy going? 🙂
BTW- innocents caught in that particular kettling? No, [b]the Police told us[/b] there was a breakaway violent section that had smashed up Topshop/Regents st etc and they'd been caught/contained. So [b]the media falsely reported[/b] that bit.
Hmm...
Bizarrely, I'm more inclined to believe the media these days. What with so many coppers giving false accounts/lying about their identities in court and that...
It's a sad day when the police are used as a political weapon. No surprise though with the Tories really, not like it hazzunt happened before...
On the flipside- The violence towards the protesters in the Countryside Alliance March was shocking.
People peacefully disagreeing with being pushed (for no reason) being hit in the face (infront of media cameras) etc.
That was a peaceful march with a wierdly OTT Police response.
I didn't say posh Hora, I said right wing.
Democracy is hard won and easily lost.
Allowing a minority the chance to prove their stupidity once in a while is one of the small prices we pay for the freedom we have.
Really mate, no offence, but you are a politicians dream. Life would be so much easier for the political classes, the police and the military if they could curtail the freedoms that previous generations fought and died for.
It's everyone's responsibility to ensure this doesn't happen, yet you're happy to hand your freedom back to them on a plate.
Oh dear have we reached the freedom crap again.
I didnt realise the police, the tories, the cyclists on a forum were calling for an end to the right to peaceful protest.
You may have gathered from his constant this-isn't-good-enough-I-need-something-better upgrading that he's an advertising mans wet dream too.
Basically he believes pretty much anything he is told or reads
if they could curtail the freedoms that previous generations fought and died for.
What? My granddad fought for the right not go get a letter in the post telling you not to break the law did he?
We all believe what we read based on our viewpoint.
Be that the Guardian the BBC, socialist worker, the Daily Mail.
The problem is that the actual events etc are skewed in favour of whatever agenda people have.
We simply have different points of view and we have to accept that and as usual the forum argument degenerates
It's everyone's responsibility to ensure this doesn't happen, yet you're happy to hand your freedom back to them on a plate.
So the answer is attack McDonalds?
Right 😐
People peacefully disagreeing with being pushed (for no reason) being hit in the face (infront of media cameras) etc.
And how is that different to what happens on the student demos etc? 😕
Hora, I've bin to loads loads more demos in London than you have, and seen countless incidents where police have gone way beyond 'reasonable force'. In fact many incidents where police have in fact incited violence by suddenly attacking otherwise peaceful demonstrators. So I know the police do deliberately stir up trouble, I've seen it with my own eyes.
Agent provocateurs: Known fact. I've seen 'demonstrators' later laughing and joking with coppers, sat having coffees round the back of some police vayns.
Rubber bullets: I was at a demo in the 90s, CJB I think. Big one down Whitehall. I'd nipped off for a pee round some backstreet, managed to sneak through police lines. Coming back into the fray, I passed an open vayn with 3 or 4 coppers sat in it, checking over baton round guns. So rubber bullets have bin deployed in mainland Britain before, just that police jolly well have not bin open and honest about it.
As I tried to take a photo, the door of the vayn was slammed shut and other coppers 'escorted' me away...
I was responding Hora's point about perfectly reasonable demonstrators having the crap kicked out of them by the police.
I've seen it happen on numerous demos I've been on
The evidence points to the fact that it happened on the CA demo as well.
Elfin is.
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HoraSo the answer is attack McDonalds?
Right
No, the answer is to protest peacefully when you disagree with the policies of the state.
Make your voice heard, add to the numbers.
Denounce violence and refuse to be an apologist for those who instigate it on either side.
Democracy, use it or lose it. 🙂
Whassamatter Hora? Any version of the 'Truth' other than the one you've chosen to swallow a bit too much for you? Too much strain for your brain?
You stay safely tucked away in front of your Telly. Don't venture out lest the Truth be a bit much for you, eh?
How Hora sees himself:
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I'm off this thread has lost the plot
Aye me too. Elfin, I'm amazed you still rabbit on after the insensitive comment you made on brants thread.
There was a plot?
Has anyone seen the plot?
Aye me too. Elfin, I'm amazed you still rabbit on after the insensitive comment you made on brants thread.
It wasn't intended as insensitive, as you would have realised if you had the capacity to think for yourself, and I removed it as soon as I realised it might be misinterpreted (which it was, by a few thick idiots). It was 'thinking out loud' which was ill-judged. I admitted my mistake and made efforts to rectify the situation.
I stand by those comments, but admit I made a mistake in posting them on such a sensitive thread. You, and one or two others, chose to use it as an opportunity to attack me. I'd say that was more insensitive than my original 'transgression', tbh. Oh look you're bringing it up now cos you're backed into a corner and have no intelligent argument to make.
Carry on letting others do your thinking for you Hora. It's probbly a lot easier for you.
TBH, I'm not completely against the letters themselves.
In a similar vein, why not send a letter to Ken Dodd before every gig reminding him to pay tax on his earnings and put it in the bank rather than stuffing it all in a suitcase in his attic?
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I'm amazed you still rabbit on after the insensitive comment you made on brants thread.
WTF has that got to do with anything? I can't see how a post on one topic can prevent someone posting on another? If thats the case Hora, maybe you should refrain from Dildo comments as made previously in this thread after your holier than thou rant elsewhere....
by a few thick idiots
You are an utter cock. You don't even have the sensitivity to keep quiet. You actually believe you were right.
Carry on letting others do your thinking for you Hora
Do you lack introspective? I honestly can't beleive I received a ban for joking about Somalian pirates and the amount of crap that you get away with.
holier than thou rant
There really are some idiots on the internet. Use abit of context fella. One of the above is polar-opposite to the other thread/topic. In addition, elfin seems to follow me around posting on almost every topic I do with faintly disguise diatribe. Its alittle scary but I really don't understand why he has to comment all the time. I've no interest in him or his opinion.
Anyway- carry on as you are. It seems some people just can't disengage.
You are an utter cock. You don't even have the sensitivity to keep quiet. You actually believe you were right.
Hora, please. Resorting to abuse isn't going to make you right.
Let's leave it at that. I refrained from further comment on that thread cos I din't see the point in continuing when I knew I was in the wrong.
Try to appreciate that I made a mistake yet admitted to it and attempted to make amends, instead of using this as the pathetic justification for some personal vendetta.
I'm more than happy to discuss issues in a civil manner, no problem with a bit of 'banter' even, but if you're going to sink to personal abuse than I have no more time for you.
You don't even have the sensitivity to keep quiet
It was you that brought it up. You made an accusation which I responded to. It's a shame all you can now do is descend into abusiveness.
I've no interest in him or his opinion.
So why comment on it then? 😕 Why bring stuff up from the past all the time, like you have some sort of grudge against me?
It seems some people just can't disengage.
You're unbelievable... 😆
X
End of.
In addition, elfin seems to follow me around posting on almost every topic I do
I think you'll find he just posts on every topic...
well as i now work at a uni Ive had the chance to see the start of the demo from here
and all i saw was a lot of students who really are pissed off at the government privatising education in this country,
they know its got nothing to do with defecit reduction and everything to do with right wing ideology and worshiping the american way of doing things
a lot of them were very angry, I wouldnt be surprised if it did kick off later and I cant say I blame them
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Kimbers you work at UoL? We'll have to meet up for a STW drinks soon.
Keep us informed on events. I may toddle down later once I've done me stuffs here.
My granddad fought for the right not go get a letter in the post telling you not to break the law did he?
😀 I love this suggestion that what criminals need is a letter from the police telling them not to engage in criminality ! Perhaps they should extend this strategy, since it's such a good idea, to all known criminals ..... and watch the crime rate plummet !!
It's pretty clear that the aim of writing letters to individuals is to intimidate otherwise law-abiding people not to attend because the police have 'their eye on them. It's a fairly standard sort of strategy that you would expect in a country which is a police state and which intimidates and frightens its people not to protest against the government. It has no place in the UK.
Likewise the threat of rubber bullets and the injuries associated with them - it's a clear message to parents, if not to the young people concerned, not to attend as they might get hurt.
Of course none of this will make an iota of difference to the "rent-a-mob" who I am reliably informed by a copper on here are the only people behind any violence. A letter warning them not to misbehave will obviously have no effect on them, nor will the threat of rubber bullets - why would it ?
The sort of society in which the police threatens those who wish to protest might the sort of society which people like Z-11 want, but I certainly don't. And it is fundamentally hostile to British values.
Now now boys
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The sort of society in which the police threatens those who wish to protest might the sort of society which people like Z-11 want, but I certainly don't. And it is fundamentally hostile to British values.
The sort of society where people feel free to commit random and extreme acts of violence and damage property without fear of punishment, due to the protection of anonymity within a crowd of peaceful protesters is the thing which is fundamentally hostile to British values Ernie!
Will the police be writing letters to all the MPs reminding them not to defraud the taxpayer
How about letters to the police reminding them to stay within the law? - no kettling for example to say nothing of reminding them to keep their ID on their uniforms as they are supposed to.
check out this one z11 heres a vid of a police officer murdering an obviously dangerous protester!
The sort of society where people feel free to commit random and extreme acts of violence and damage property without fear of punishment, due to the protection of anonymity within a crowd of peaceful protesters is the thing which is fundamentally hostile to British values Ernie!
And it's also a society which we don't have, you daft fantasist 🙂
Yes I know that having posters on street corners saying "Big Brother Is Watching You" would be fine by you because only those who were up to no good would have anything to worry about, law-abiding citizens would be fine, but most normal people don't want to live in your Orwellian world.
well i think the game is about to begin. Kettles forming, people covering their faces, a few little 'sacrifical' groups moving in opposite directions.
I'm quite proud of our undergraduates actually. It takes inventiveness and balls to go up against the police and government.
Do you know, it's years since I got done for speeding - probably around 28. But every time I go out on the roads, I keep coming across these "Speed Cameras operate in this area" type of signs. Why do they keep reminding me that it's a good idea not to break the law?Rusty Spanner - Member
In a similar vein, why not send a letter to Ken Dodd before every gig reminding him to pay tax on his earnings and put it in the bank rather than stuffing it all in a suitcase in his attic?
Well I'm stood on Whitehall an nothing is going on
TJ will be encouraged to know we are all displaying our numerals
check out this one z11 heres a vid of a police officer murdering an obviously dangerous protester!
i) I thought that according to the Grauniad, Tomlinson wasn't a protester, he was a sweet and innocent newspaper setter trying to make his way home 🙄
ii) Murder? Are you sure - can you support an allegation of murder? can't see anybody's been charged with [u]murder[/u] 🙄
Seems you're applying a double standard here - the sweet and innocent protesters who were arrested are innocent, and shouldn't get letters because they've never been prosecuted, but the evil policeman is a murderer, even though he has not been prosecuted for that offence 😉
no kettling for example to say nothing of reminding them to keep their ID on their uniforms as they are supposed to.
Kettling is not illegal, nor is it a legal requirement to wear their ID - more double standards! You constantly complain that people are being punished for not breaking the law, but expect to be able to complain about the police doing nothing wrong.
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Z11, kettling can be illegal, and was judged as such in the case of the G20 protests.
[url= http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/957.html ]Scroll to the bottom[/url]
Kato - MemberWell I'm stood on Whitehall an nothing is going on
TJ will be encouraged to know we are all displaying our numerals
Nice one - good luck. The plod ( can I say that) on the ground I feel sympathy for - their bosses far less so
Zulu - they are supposed to wear ID at all times
“The policy of the Met Police is very clear. The public have the right to be able to identify any uniformed police officer and so badges should be worn at all times. We support the Commissioner's decision to hold officers to account when they purposely conceal their identity.”The Home Office also criticised officers who fail to wear their epaulettes, insisting the “public has a right to be able to identify” them.
A Home Office spokesman said: “We welcome the Commissioner's statement that all uniformed police officers should be identifiable at all times by their shoulder identification numbers, and wholly agree that the public has a right to be able to identify any uniformed officers while performing their duties.”
A Yard spokesman said: “Where provided, epaulettes with identifying letters and numerals or insignia of rank must be worn and must be correct and visible at all times.
“It is the responsibility of all police officers, and their supervisors, to ensure this policy is followed.”
Reports and photos of plain clothed officers bundling people from the protest for no reason...
kettling [u]can[/u] be illegal
Thats not the same thing as kettling [u]is[/u] illegal though, is it?
Driving a car [u]can[/u] be illegal - doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it on a daily basis though, does it?
they are [u]supposed [/u]to wear ID at all times
all uniformed police officers [u]should [/u] be identifiable at all times
to ensure this [u]policy[/u] is followed.
Again, thats not the same thing, is it now TJ? its not [u]illegal[/u] for them not to, its just against force policy, well, whoop de doo. We're allowed to do anything that the law does not prohibit us from doing.
Double Standards!
Good luck, Kato, and my thanks to you and all your colleagues for the work you do.
Also, beer sometime.....! Needs to be done!
It wasn't intended as insensitive, as you would have realised if you had the capacity to think for yourself, and I removed it as soon as I realised it might be misinterpreted (which it was, by a few thick idiots). It was 'thinking out loud' which was ill-judged. I admitted my mistake and made efforts to rectify the situation.
Hang on, that's not even remotely true. If it weren't for the "few thick idiots" (there was more than a few of us) you would have left that (totally out of order and insensitive) post where it was without a hint of conscience. There was no apology or admittance of being wrong (until now) just a blame on everyone else for misinterpreting. Lacking humility.
Dont understand your rant read the beginning of the opening letter.
: "It is in the public and your own interest that you do not involve yourself in any type of criminal or antisocial behaviour. We have a responsibility to deliver a safe protest which protects residents, tourists, commuters, protesters and the wider community. Should you do so we will at the earliest opportunity arrest and place you before the court."
Think the above is fair
There was no apology or admittance of being wrong
he did immediately on the thread in question - deleted the comment and apologised iirc
deleted the comment and apologised iirc
He said he stood by the comments on this very thread!
Hang on, that's not even remotely true. If it weren't for the "few thick idiots" (there was more than a few of us) you would have left that (totally out of order and insensitive) post where it was without a hint of conscience.
You're wrong, but carry on believing what you want about a person you don't even know.
Anyway, as I've said; done and dusted. Move on; I have.
Well the media coverage seems to have been about the policing of the protest, the reasons for the protest barely seem to have got a mention, so its a victory for the politicians.
And we now know that though it was possible to set up camp in Tahrir Square when the Egyptian police state was at it's worst, it isn't possible to do that in the UK because our police state is so much more effecient, and has better PR.
The UK spring is on permanent hold...
😀And we now know that though it was possible to set up camp in Tahrir Square when the Egyptian police state was at it's worst, it isn't possible to do that in the UK because our police state is so much more effecient, and has better PR.The UK spring is on permanent hold...
Edited because while I don't agree with the above, upon rereading my reply seemed sarkier than required!
I see things as they are, not as They would want you to believe them to be.
ohnohesback - Member
I see things as they are, not as They would want you to believe them to be.
Do you have your own theme music as you walk down the street?
Do you have your own theme music as you walk down the street?
😀
As a matter of fact I do... 🙂
Looks like it all went well, lessons learned from last time on both sides.
As for the Thahrir square reference, that's just silly.
The UN estimated 300 people died in Tahrir square you **** wit.
Without clicking on a youtube link at work...
The clash; I fought the law?
Rumble by Link Wray.
Come on then, lets hear about Politicisation of the police force, intimidation of peaceful protesters, intimidation, kettling and unlawful arrest over this one:
170 peaceful law abiding protesters rounded up and arrested by the police in central London today!
170 of them. Custody here is rammed
As much as i dislike the EDL i do agree with you Z11 that this, as reported does seem utterly wrong.
I'm surprised that some one as vocal as you are in your support of the police and their powers takes issue with this . Don't you believe the police should have shot them with D cell batteries fired as improvised baton rounds?
Zulu-Eleven - MemberCome on then, lets hear about Politicisation of the police force, intimidation of peaceful protesters, intimidation, kettling and unlawful arrest over this one:
170 peaceful law abiding protesters rounded up and arrested by the police in central London today!
Are you really comparing a bunch of pub thugs with no political agenda other than drinking and street fighting, with people demonstrating against government education policy ?
I take it you think the EDL were hard done by ? I note that there is no mention by you of the raids on Muslims Against Crusades premises, which is also included in your link.
Yes Z-11, democracy, which you have contemptuously dismissed as, quote : [i]"this silly little experiment",[/i] allows people to express their opinions. That doesn't however need to extend to organised thugs with no agenda other than drinking and being up for a ruck.
You live in a strange little world mate.
Zulu-Eleven - MemberKettling is not illegal, nor is it a legal requirement to wear their ID - more double standards! You constantly complain that people are being punished for not breaking the law, but expect to be able to complain about the police doing nothing wrong.
"Not illegal" doesn't mean "Nothing wrong". As anyone over the age of about 5 knows.
I'm amused by z-11. Politicisation of the cops doesn't have to be in one colour y'know. I'm amused that you think it is.
It's almost like you've drawn a line (in crayon admittedly) between the the Tories and the EDL. did you mean to?
"Not illegal" doesn't mean "Nothing wrong". As anyone over the age of about 5 knows.
Are you willing to apply the same logic to the people who were arrested at the previous student demo's and later not prosecuted, those who received letters?
I'm surprised that some one as vocal as you are in your support of the police and their powers takes issue with this
Do I take issue with the arrest of the EDL? The police have a right to arrest to prevent a BOP - if they used this to arrest en masse large groups of student protesters, would you defend the polices right to do so?
I'm just wondering if the people who condemned the police for oppressive restrictions on the freedom to protest are going to defend the freedom to protest for the EDL, as well as the students. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely?
Are you really comparing a bunch of pub thugs with no political agenda other than drinking and street fighting, with people demonstrating against government education policy ?
As far as I can see - the EDL members have not committed any offences, and I think its quite clear that they do have a political agenda.
That doesn't however need to extend to organised thugs with no agenda other than drinking and being up for a ruck.
So, You're happy to defend the right to protest for Students, but dismiss the right to peacefully protest for the EDL, based on the fact you don't support their political agenda... and I'm the one who lives in a strange little world...
The hypocrisy of the moral left 🙄
Zulu-Eleven - MemberAre you willing to apply the same logic to the people who were arrested at the previous student demo's and later received letters?
Well, no, because it's not the same thing at all, and trying to apply the same logic to 2 totally different situations makes no sense.
Really Northwind?
Because I thought you'd just told me that the fact they'd done nothing illegal doesn't mean they'd done nothing wrong....
"As anyone over the age of about 5 knows" I think you said 😉
Hypocrite!
[i]Terrible[/i] effort.
Check your pants z-11, I think you may have followed through.
As far as I can see - the EDL members have not committed any offences, and I think its quite clear that they do have a political agenda.
😀 I think the average EDL member would be as surprised as I am at your suggestion that they have a political agenda. An agenda which basically has two items on it, drinking, and fighting, hardly constitutes a political agenda.
If they pursued that agenda as individuals they would be simply arrested. Just because they organise themselves over the internet into relatively large groups, it doesn't somehow magically become a political movement. Even if they do warn us of the threat from "Muslamic Ray Guns".
Nor btw, does burning poppies represent a political agenda. It's designed purely to offend, insult, and cause outrage. And I don't see any reason way it should be tolerated and more than me walking down the street shouting obscenities at old ladies should be tolerated - it has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Still, arguing all this with you Z-11 is fairly pointless, is not ? Let's remind ourselves what you have to say on such matters :
ernie_lynch - MemberNo great surprise there ratty ............ you've always struck me as someone who looks back on the Dark Ages with a certain fondness and nostalgia.
Zulu-Eleven - MemberDark ages, No Ernie, not at all - far more of a fan of a military coup returning HRH to power and getting rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy"
Looks like Z-11 would have been really cozy with Pol Pot, or Robert Mugabe. Neither of them have or had much truck with that silly little 'democracy' experiment, either.
Can the STW massive have a quick whip-round for a one-way ticket to Harare for Z-11? I'm prepared to chip in. 😈
Pol Pot & Robert Mugabe.
Are they really the best you could come up with?
Ernie's heroes are Lenin and Marx, democracy through dictatorship!
Come on Ernie - what was it that Trotsky said?
[i]“As Marxists, we have never been idol worshippers of formal democracy.”[/i]
Come on - can [b]one[/b] person justify to me any reason why 170 EDL members should have less right to gather peacefully in the street than a bunch of students?
Come on Ernie - what was it that Trotsky said?
Dunno, I've never read anything by Trotsky. Although apparently you have, 'cause to keep quoting him to me.
If I didn't believe in democracy I would say so, just like you have.
Otherwise how else would I get people to come over to my way of thinking ?
Do you believe in democracy, or universal suffrage?
Do we have democracy in the UK? Since you're defending it, I would imagine you think so... but proletarian democracy is not just representative democracy, but participatory democracy
I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees. Parliamentary democracy was never supported by Lenin, Marx or Engels.
You should be all for my argument Ernie - your failure to realise that parliamentary democracy is a continuation of the class division that prevents a democracy of the proletariat shows that, despite a lifetime of espousing the ideals and goals of the left, you've never come to truly understand what you're asking for!
You two are, at times, effing boring. Please piss off and get your own forum or something.
Classic bourgeois reaction to an intelligent discussion on the nature of the internationale, and the hope for a society where money and privilege are no longer able to lay down the law to the working class majority there Flash 😉
You should be all for my argument Ernie
Thanks for the tip mate.........I'll bear that in mind.