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This has the potential to turn even uglier than it has at the moment. What else can we expect apart from streams of refugees and an undeclared conflict between Russia and the EU/NATO?
i don't know where it'll end but it seems to be getting uglier the longer it continues.... 25 dead due to protesting :/
a big concrete wall dividing east from west?
Is it the beginning of a "spring" in the former USSR states? It looks to have a similar "shape" to the Arab protests.
BLOG 10:35
BBC Monitoring's Vitaliy Schevchenko says a key member of Ukraine's ruling party, Serhiy Tyhypko, has criticised both sides in the crisis. On his Facebook page Tyhypko says "the president, parliament speaker, acting prime minister and opposition leaders have totally lost control of the situation".
This as also interesting, if true
emails: I am receiving information all the time, from friends in Kiev... and talk about an east-west split is complete nonsense. I have friends from Lugansk and Rivne who are in Kiev. All of Ukraine is together, to fight for a common cause... to see an end to the dictatorship.
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I suspect that if Yanukovych doesn't get a grip, Russia will invade.
Some "spring"...
Yep, overt Russian involvement can't be that far away. Obama has also talked about 'consequences'
I know some Ukrainians
I'm being told travelling between cities is becoming more and more impossible
They have also told me travel to Poland has been blocked
I'm concerned
Its just a good job that Russia has always been reluctant to interfere directly, militarily in the affairs of its neighbouring countries, when its perceives a threat to its interests. Especially so with a cool, non-aggressive head like Putin at the helm.
Oh… wait…. hang on a minute…..
Yep, no historical precedents set there
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The rumours are true, the government has brought in snipers
Thirteen of the protesters killed in Independence Square on Thursday morning died from single gunshot wounds fired by a sniper, a medic in Independence Square tells Interfax-Ukraine news agency.
TWEET 10:51
Kateryna Kruk, The Guardian
tweets: "Snipers are shooting from from Hotel Ukraina and Instytutsjka, more dead around"
Interestingly after Georgia affairs after few years, Georgians themselves hold their heads in shame and fancy coming back as friends with MotherLand. Guess west stopped hand outs, while Russian market was closed for them.
They realised who was the daddy.
Same will be with Ukraine.
The more dependant we become on The Bear's oil and gas the more chance we have of being the next Ukraine.
Every windmill and solar panel is a **** off to Putin.
there's talk now of a state of emergency and internet and mobile phone networks going offline
Yeah, once one knows about the er...'troubled history' between the Ukraine and other parts of the former USSR, it seems like it has all the potential to really kick off (i.e. Russia going in). I think it helps understand the current situation if one has some historical perspective on what's going on. IMO, a lot of the trouble in these former Soviet states and Balkans countries (and much of the Middle East) has roots in what happened during WW2. I think in the West, we have shorter memories than in other parts of the World.
I'm not sure how many people in the West are aware, but a lot of Ukrainians sided with the Nazis in WW2, and the atrocities carried out by Ukrainians on other Soviets and 'undesirables' was so extreme that it even shocked the SS soldiers (not too shocked to stop the s**ts filming it though!!) - I've seen some of the footage shot by the Nazis and it's so bad, I had to switch it off. Apparently, the Ukrainians who volunteered for the SS were so extreme that they were formed into 'special units' to eradicate any potential opposition to Nazi rule.
I don't know what Russians think of the Ukrainians now, but given their past record, I can't think there'd be much opposition to military intervention.
I feel very sorry for the ordinary folk who are inevitably going
to end up getting caught up in the fall-out from this trouble. Just goes to show how unresolved political issues can grow into ugly situations.
the ukranians I know, young educated etc are much more liberal and westernized than the ss volunteers above! however a girl I know despite being very anti yanyukovich was negative about many of her fellow ukranians and what the eventual outcome would be
12:01:About 50 opposition activists are blocking the tracks in front of a train carrying paratroopers from Dnepropetrovsk to Kiev, the Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports, quoting a head of a local branch of the opposition Fatherland party. The 10-carriage train carrying 500 servicemen is being held up at a small station outside Dnepropetrovsk, in eastern Ukraine.
It doesn't look like a Kiev only, or even western Ukraine only, protest then..
looks more like the beginning of a civil war.woody2000 - Member
Is it the beginning of a "spring" in the former USSR states? It looks to have a similar "shape" to the Arab protests.
looks more like the beginning of a civil war.
With this many people dying and a high level of Putin involvement it does feel more like a Syria rather than a Tunisia, unfortunately....
The reason for the Ukrainian hatred of the rest of the USSR has a lot to do with how Stalin treated them...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Yes, that's what I've found. I didn't intend to paint every Ukrainian as a Nazi sympathiser, just give some idea of the recent history that might well influence some people in parts of the former Soviet states.the ukranians I know, young educated etc are much more liberal and westernized than the ss volunteers above!
I don't think we have to travel very far to see how these past historical events can fester away and influence current politics (Northern Ireland). Sadly, I dunno what the answer is.
bowglie - Member
Yeah, once one knows about the er...'troubled history' between the Ukraine and other parts of the former USSR, it seems like it has all the potential to really kick off (i.e. Russia going in). I think it helps understand the current situation if one has some historical perspective on what's going on. IMO, a lot of the trouble in these former Soviet states and Balkans countries (and much of the Middle East) has roots in what happened during WW2. I think in the West, we have shorter memories than in other parts of the World.I'm not sure how many people in the West are aware, but a lot of Ukrainians sided with the Nazis in WW2, and the atrocities carried out by Ukrainians on other Soviets and 'undesirables' was so extreme that it even shocked the SS soldiers (not too shocked to stop the s**ts filming it though!!) - I've seen some of the footage shot by the Nazis and it's so bad, I had to switch it off. Apparently, the Ukrainians who volunteered for the SS were so extreme that they were formed into 'special units' to eradicate any potential opposition to Nazi rule.
I don't know what Russians think of the Ukrainians now, but given their past record, I can't think there'd be much opposition to military intervention.
I feel very sorry for the ordinary folk who are inevitably going
to end up getting caught up in the fall-out from this trouble. Just goes to show how unresolved political issues can grow into ugly situations.
in fairness, there was the ukrainian genocide/"famine", pre WW2, so I guess you could understand why they weren't particularly fond of stalin.
That famine reminds me of Mao's Great Leap Forward that was always doomed to failure, with something like 20-40 million people dying from starvation and forced labour. Genocide of an impossibly epic scale.
Chairman Meow
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Councillors in Ukraine's western Transcarpathia Region have voted to declare the region "free of Yanukovych rule" - UNIAN news agency via BBC Monitoring.
13:33: Irena Taranyuk from the BBC's Ukrainian Service says the authorities have "lost control" of the west of the country.
"Local protestors have not only taken control of local authorities but they have torched security services headquarters," she told the BBC World Service's Newshour programme.
13:32: Trains running from opposition-minded western Ukraine to Kiev are either badly delayed or cancelled - due urgent engineering works, says Ukraine's state-owned railway operator Ukrzaliznytsya.
Unconfirmed reports also say extra train services are being put in place to bring government supporters to Kiev from the country's Russian-speaking east - BBC Monitoring.
Looks like the Ivano-Frankisvk region might be joining the Transcarpathian oblast on rejecting Yanukovych's rule. All news reports subject to heresay and rumour, obvs
Ivano-Frankivsk regional council in western Ukraine passes a vote of no-confidence in President Yanukovych designating him an "illegitimate head of state", the UNIAN news agency reports.
it is all looking very grim, poor sods
re when will [i]The[/i] Ukraine end, officially in 1993.
Meanwhile, in Venezuela;
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See also Bangkok which is looking equally dodgy.
Coverage of both Venezuela and Thai riots is much lower in the UK, though.
Everyone knows that stuff like this gets reported in a sliding scale of importance directly linked to the skin tone of the people involved
See also: the importance of death league table
how much gas and oil have they got Cpt
Just trying to work out how much to care
See also Bangkok which is looking equally dodgy.
Coverage of both Venezuela and Thai riots is much lower in the UK, though.
I imagine that's a result of the European involvement with this one.
how much gas and oil have they got CptJust trying to work out how much to care
Venezuela has one of the largest oil reserves in the world
I thought they were all commies in Venezuela?
I thought they were all commies in Venezuela?
Good, we should be able to start formulating an equation here:
(oil reserves/communism)x proximity to UK = newsworthiness
(oil reserves/communism)x proximity to UK = newsworthiness
Obviously from a UK point of view, in Spain Venezuela gets a fair amount of coverage.
So:
(oil reserves/communism)x proximity to UK x (language + shared history) = newsworthiness
not just western ukraine
15:52: In Rivne, north-eastern Ukraine, the regional council has voted to strip the government-appointed regional administration of all its powers. "We have assumed responsibility for running Rivne Region," council chairman Mykhaylo Kyrylov says - UNIAN news agency via BBC Monitoring.
Yanukovych is starting to look like the guy who's farted in a lift
16:05:More on the decision of Kiev's acting mayor, Volodymyr Makeyenko, to leave President Yanukovych's Party of Regions: "I'm ready to do everything possible to stop fratricide and bloodshed in the heart of Ukraine, in Independence Square. Human life should have the highest value in our country and nothing can stand in the way of this principle," he said.
From Matt Frei (of channel 4 news) on twitter:
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattfrei
According to protest sources 100 killed today #Kiev. We personally counted 13 dead. But I can easily imagine more
We filmed protesters capturing a dozen riot police, frog marching them to the police HQ and the releasing them after a civics lecture
By cracking down on protests but failing to end occupation of #Maidan @janukovich has shot himself in both feet. Big backlash. The end?
Reports of government closing bridges to Kiev to stem flow of new arrivals. Meanwhile defecting governor of capital has opened Metro