[Closed] The tide seems to be turning, to promote the merits of wearing masks.

ERICPD is generally not meant for pandemics though, to be fair.

The USA have estimated that if the epidemic lasts for a year, they will need 3.5 billion masks just for medical workers.

I think suggesting to people that they should wear masks is probably a really bad idea right now, because as others have pointed out, the people on the front line who really need them will be unable to get hold of them as demand soars.

Inevitably, if you tell people to start wearing masks, there will also be a lot of people who decide that a mask makes it safe to start mingling again. People won't be able to get enough masks to change them as frequently as is necessary, so there will lots of people going about with re-used masks that are just incubating the virus.

The best preventative method is the official advice to stay at home, away from other people, as much as possible.

Gloves used appropriately are useful, however yes a lot of people are using them incorrectly. As a barrier ppe it should reduce the risk of skin contaminaton and therefore transfer and infection of self, but as someone said by wearing them continuously rather than being able to separate clean and dirty areas they become less useful.

Gloves used appropriately are useful...by wearing them continuously rather than being able to separate clean and dirty areas they become less than useful.

FTFY

People wearing gloves incorrectly are likely to think that their hands are clean, so are less likely to be washing their hands frequently or correctly - thereby actually increasing the spread of the virus.

As for re-using masks, putting them in the oven at 70°C and then quaranteening them for a couple of days gives them a new lease of life, French doctors are having to do it due to the shortage.

No sorry you haven't fixed it, what you have done is applied a conjecture to the statement, which by itself does not make my point incorrect.

Haven’t you been listening to the daily press briefings with Public Health England and aa kinds of other govt spokespeople? They’re coming real soon now, within weeks, or maybe longer, oh look! A squirrel!!

I believe the official line is they are millions available to everyone who needs them and now all NHS workers have been threatened with instant dismissal for contradicting the party line; everyone is happy!

People wearing gloves incorrectly are likely to think that their hands are clean, so are less likely to be washing their hands frequently or correctly – thereby actually increasing the spread of the virus.

+1 everyone in the local Coop / Tesco is wearing them, they just touch their face with their gloves rather than their fingers. Completely pointless...

Problem solved...

Austria makes masks compulsory as protection debate shifts.
https://www.ft.com/content/f68f3063-5024-4654-9389-bcc7ee1efd8e

Photos of people with great handfuls of masks so no shortage there.

Gloves are also not very useful

Yep, this. The number of people you see in the supermarket, etc wearing gloves who then jump into their cars and drive off still wearing the same gloves… whatever was on those gloves from the shops is now all over your car, house.

I saw a nurse walk out of my local GP surgery last week wearing plastic apron, mask and gloves. She walked up to her car, took something out and back into the surgery. So whatever she’s trying to protect herself against is now spread nicely over her car key, door handle, everything she’s touched. And also taken whatever was on her car, etc, back into the surgery.

Having worked for years in the food industry I’m struggling to see why so many people are finding this difficult.

Staff of the NHS are far more exposed to Covid-19 than me, until they’re sufficiently supplied, they can have mine and I just won’t go outside.

Idle John

That's because the food industry is a lot more professional than many parts of the NHS. The people at the sharp end, A & E, ITU, theatres are probably world class in infection control etc. Many of the more routine roles aren't. On an anecdotal level I saw this first hand 10 years ago when my 1 year old son had to have surgery. We turned up and they had a bed ready, not much use with a one year old. They promptly swapped it for a clinical cot and got a cleaner to come in and clean it before he used it. So far so good. Cleaner starts cleaning, working hard in a very amateur way. Wasn't systematic, missed some bits, did other bits twice, only rinsed out the cloth a couple of times so at best missed bits and at worst spread any infection all over. Not her fault but clearly hadn't been trained to clean in a clinical setting. This amateurish behaviour was compounded later when a member of NHS staff came in with the cleaning contractors supervisor to do an audit. It was like your mother inlaw had turned up, one of them ran their finger along a ledge 7ft off the ground looking for dust whilst the other was onhands a knees perturbedthere was a crisp packet On the floor. They should have been observing the cleaning techniques of the cleaner and maybe taking samples from surfaces the kids could easily access. Cant fault the work ethic butthey might as well have not bothered.

He ended up with a hospital acquired infection after surgery, and extremely strong pump driven anti biotics. The hospital was brand new, been open 7 months.

That GP nurse is a shining example of not understanding properly. The general population is 10 times worse. The message to the public has to be simple in every way, correct use of PPE is well beyond most people.

I saw a nurse walk out of my local GP surgery last week wearing plastic apron, mask and gloves. She walked up to her car, took something out and back into the surgery. So whatever she’s trying to protect herself against is now spread nicely over her car key, door handle, everything she’s touched. And also taken whatever was on her car, etc, back into the surgery.

Maybe she hadn’t seen a patient in the ppe, so there was no cv29 risk there, then realised she needed something from her cv19 free car and decided rather than junk what is now valuable limited kit to go and get it, as there was no risk of cv19 exposure and limited risk of any significant other infection from her actions.

The last time I was in our local bakery (fortnight ago) there was hand sanitiser, which the staff politely asked the customers to use. I noticed not one man used the sanitiser, only women, except for 2 who loudly told me they didn't have to use it (when I'd pointed the sanitiser out to a customer).
These are the very people who shouldn't and couldn't be trusted with a mask, probably wouldn't wear one properly and maybe think it protects them, without taking the proper precautions of 'staying at home', washing their hands properly and keeping social distance.

Edit: My GP friend says her German friends are having to make their own mask, but there aren't enough filters for them to change frequently to make the masks useful.

ERICPD is generally not meant for pandemics though, to be fair.

It's appropriate for all settings. If you could mechanise the functions of NHS staff and elimnate them or put them somewhere remote from patients with infectious diseases, you would. It's just not practicable so you use PPE. Some risks are unavoidable, this is one of them if your job is looking after sick people, unfortunately - but it should be managed adequately. Things like social distancing and reducing visits to wards are being done, it's not simply a case of everyone putting on PPE (Even if it was freely available in sufficient quantities).

Those saying they'd happily deprive NHS staff or social workers and carers (this probably should include schoolteachers) of vital PPE to protect them/their precious family, you're part of the problem, and you might cause somebody critically ill not to get treated if NHS staff feel unduly at risk due to you using limited supplies.

On another note, the facemasks I've seen NHS staff wearing/fitting up recently have been ones with an exhale valve, which will keep particles out but won't stop an asymptomatic person spreading infection - so there's absolutely no point in wearing these to prevent spread from yourself, they only protect the wearer.

As with so many other things, as unpalatable as it is, it's about managing risk not eliminating it. We're pretty complacent as nothing like this has happened recently, but it is not possible to eliminate all risks - nature is a big and powerful thing.

Worst thing about this is that local facebook groups and mumsnet have learnt the phrase "PPE" but have absolutely not a clue what it means or how to use it in a meaningful sentence.

There is however symbolism in wearing a mask and an unspoken message that might influence other behaviours. It shows the herd that there is danger, and that others are taking it seriously and choosing to protect themselves. Hopefully that message will get through to other people and they will change their behaviours - stay at home, wash your hands, etc.

The biggest issue I have with that linked Beeb piece is that the research it cites from MIT really only sems to be about how far cough/sneeze borne nasties can travel, not whether or not that is actually a widespread mechanism of CV19 spread.
It's more alarmist click-bait for the sake of it.

The standing advice to avoid contact with others, avoid contact with hard surfaces/people that could harbour CV19 and wash your hands frequently/thoroughly was based on the idea that most people pick CV19 up by touching a contaminated surface or person, and then their own face, which TBH makes more sense than armies of the infected wandering about sneezing in strangers faces.

Anecdotally (I know) when I've been outside recently those that are out and about, (and observing 2m separation for the most part) are not coughing or sneezing their viral load all over the place. One assumes anyone that unwell has isolated themselves at home.

I've seen a few people wearing masks, stood at bus stops (I really wouldn't want to ride on a bus right now), walking about, even a few jogging and cycling, so clearly there's nothing to say you can't wear a mask, and there's no apparent stigma attached to it so crack on if you want.

But I'm still not clear if masks really defeat the spread of CV19, given that people are still as handsy as ever with their surroundings (and they are), and then once they get home presumably the first those people do is touch their face, to remove a mask...

As already noted given the limited supply and the fact that Frontline NHS staff are at most risk of acquiring and subsequently spreading CV19, they should be first priority for receipt of any PPE before the rest of us.

IdleJon
Subscriber

Having worked for years in the food industry I’m struggling to see why so many people are finding this difficult.

stumpyjon
Subscriber

Idle John

That’s because the food industry is a lot more professional than many parts of the NHS.

I think you missed the words "most of" about the food industry.

Having worked in the food industry for over 30 years I don't think many understand the systems and procedures that are in place to safeguard the consumer, having just undergone yet another BRC audit and retained our AA rating I can tell you the slightest thing can get you non conformances.

While I know most of the NHS staff are superb it only takes a few careless ones to cause massive problems

On another note, the facemasks I’ve seen NHS staff wearing/fitting up recently have been ones with an exhale valve, which will keep particles out but won’t stop an asymptomatic person spreading infection – so there’s absolutely no point in wearing these to prevent spread from yourself, they only protect the wearer.

The risk to the NHS staff wearing these will be contracting the virus from a patient. If the patient is already in hospital with CV-19, they already got it and don't need to worry about being infected again.

Quite funny watching people walk about supermarkets with masks and gloves on. Also seeing people with scarfs over their faces lol Best bit was people jumping out the way of you.

Gloves will offer protection to someone dealing with a patient. They are disposed of after use. People that where them to a supermarket not doing anything to help stop the spread or protect themselves.

Masks are not going to really do anything unless people where them 24/7 and once they get moisture in them they are useless. The virus isn't "airborne" in the sense that it just floats about. It is carried on particles so someone has to transfer it by sneezing, coughing, spitting etc. If you are in a household where someone has symptoms you don't go to supermarkets.

Maybe she hadn’t seen a patient in the ppe, so there was no cv29 risk there, then realised she needed something from her cv19 free car and decided rather than junk what is now valuable limited kit to go and get it, as there was no risk of cv19 exposure and limited risk of any significant other infection from her actions.

And that shows a lack of knowledge about PPE in a clinical setting, how did she know the car wasn't contaminated, someone had just sneezed all over it. Scrubs aren't worn outside the operating theatre, people working in kitchens aren't supposed to wear their work clothes outside of the kitchens for example. Cross contamination in this case is a real threat. The PPE is there to protect patient and practitioner. The apron and mask in particular are disposable and should be changed between patients and definitely not worn outside of the clinical setting and then brought back into it.

I think you missed the words “most of” about the food industry.

I’d agree with that. Some of things I saw should have put me off food forever! 😂

Maybe she hadn’t seen a patient in the ppe, so there was no cv29 risk there, then realised she needed something from her cv19 free car and decided rather than junk what is now valuable limited kit to go and get it, as there was no risk of cv19 exposure and limited risk of any significant other infection from her actions.

I just typed out a long reply explaining what’s wrong with this post but I can sum it by saying, if this is the way people think then we’re all doomed!

Having read lots of news and scientific articles on this situation on Flipboard, I’m totally with Bunnyhop and stumpyjon on this, (see previous page posts). I have no masks, I have no access to masks, and even if I did, there are thousands of people in the U.K. whose need is far, far greater than mine!

Unless you have a proper FP3 or PF2 mask then the main benefit of wearing them is not to you but to everyone else. They are far better and stopping anything coming our of your mouth or nose than they are at preventing stuff coming in.

I tried a basic mask the other day and I had to get rid of it after ~10mins, it made my slight breathing discomfort worse.

Some of things I saw should have put me off food forever!

Yep, used to work for a company that made metal detectors for food plants. One of the models was for sausage making, the pipe with the sausage goo would run through the middle. The metal detectors sometimes came back for repairs, often full of sausage goo that had turned green.

Ok, as the op I'll "justify" why AND when I bought the masks.

Way back on the original coronovirus thread when the consensus was that this will just blow over, there were a couple of posters that insisted it wouldn't. At that point I was hoping they were wrong but I tended to agree with them in part.

Back then 5L bottles of IPA 99% were still cheap and so were masks...though prices of both were edging up.

I bought some FFP2 masks from my corner shop of all places in his little diy section and at the time I said to him that he should get some more in if he could as they were going to be like rocking horse poo soon. He just gave me a humouring smile. At this point even I thought I was going a bit loopy buying masks and just wasting money.

I also bought 3 ffp3 masks online and 10 surgical style masks as they were very cheap.

Of those I now have 3 left in the house. 1 ffp3 and 2 ffp2's. One ffp2 is damaged but I'm going to repair the strap on that one. I reuse them but first they are sprayed with IPA inside and out and left to dry. Not ideal but it's better than nothing. Used for very occasional food shop, getting meds or the nightly walk I take round the "block".

Here's where the rest went:

2 to my lad and partner, they were just expecting their first baby a couple of weeks back and she had a CZ. So going to and fro hospital etc.

4 to my partner who house shares with a lady with severely reduced kidney function. The extra 2 were for her parents as at the time they were going to a warfarin clinic once a week via bus and insistence on doing food shopping themselves. They still are!

1 to A friend that lives down the road who recently finished chemo therapy as he INSISTS on going to the corner shop no matter what I tell him.

The surgical style masks were all given to my partner as she works in a path lab in the NHS. She isn't front line but is friends with those that are. I just said to hand them out to whoever she wanted to at work. It's a single rain drop in a storm but better than nothing.

I gave 2 masks back to the corner shop I bought them from ironically as well as IPA in spray bottles as they are nice people and inherently coming into contact with a lot of people.

The IPA is watered down to 70%. It then goes into 100ml reusable spray bottles I got from Amazon. Those bottles as well as (relabelled!!x) Cola bottles of IPA were also given out to the same people as above as well as a few random friends.

Does the above make me a saint, of course it f*** doesn't. It also sure as s doesn't make me some sort of selfish prick.

All I did was make a conscious decision to buy some provisions that might help me keep some people I care derply about safe at a time when most would have thought I was being a complete "prepper" idiot. Including myself.

Want someone to blame? Consider those that have voted Tory over the last decade but are the first to criticise the NHS even in normal times. It would still be struggling during this emergency but it sure as hell would have been in a better state to deal with it than it currently is.

Sorry for the above "rant" but even the inference that trying to be prepared for this pandemic somehow makes me a selfish prick genuinely angers me.

I just typed out a long reply explaining what’s wrong with this post but I can sum it by saying, if this is the way people think then we’re all doomed!

Let us say the nurse is just doing jabs and the like and the ppe is just to protect her against cv19 rather than a requirement for the procedure she’s undertaking, in the present circumstances, pandemic, severe lack of kit, not trashing it because you left the confines of a surgery but weren’t exposed to any cv19 risk makes perfect sense.

Let us say the nurse is just doing jabs and the like and the ppe is just to protect her against cv19 rather than a requirement for the procedure she’s undertaking, in the present circumstances, pandemic, severe lack of kit, not trashing it because you left the confines of a surgery but weren’t exposed to any cv19 risk makes perfect sense.

So she’s just unwittingly carried it out to her car because she’s been in contact with an asympomatic person.

My bad scenario as per my previous post;

Let us say the nurse is just doing jabs and the like and the ppe is just to protect her against cv19 rather than a requirement for the procedure she’s undertaking, and she hasn’t seen a patient in the kit, in the present circumstances, pandemic, severe lack of kit, not trashing it because you left the confines of a surgery but weren’t exposed to any cv19 risk makes perfect sense.

Let us say the nurse is just doing jabs and the like and the ppe is just to protect her against cv19 rather than a requirement for the procedure she’s undertaking, and she hasn’t seen a patient in the kit, in the present circumstances, pandemic, severe lack of kit, not trashing it because you left the confines of a surgery but weren’t exposed to any cv19 risk makes perfect sense.

So she’s just rubbed up against her never-sanitised car, interior, etc, opened the door with her previously clean gloves on and is now carrying any infection that she, her family or anyone who has been in the car has had.

Even taking away the threat of Covid-19, the insides of cars are disgusting places.

Not ideal with the gloves but unless a patient is going to lick her mask, apron etc seems a low risk and as mentioned desperate times lead to less than optimal practices

@Poopscoop never apologise for caring about not just your loved ones but others too. You've really gone the extra mile, hold your head high and ignore any muppets on this thread.