[Closed] The tide seems to be turning, to promote the merits of wearing masks.

While yes I agree in an ideal world yes.

Until our front line NHS staff can get access to what they need to do their job (by that I mean our current national supply is restored as they can't buy what they need due due to their being none and certainly locally are working on people donating their personal stocks )

I won't be wearing one.

I've been using my N95 filtered commuter mask since this started
And don't intend to stop.

I have a friend that was locked down in Wuhan and he was appalled by the UK advice that masks weren't required. He sent lots of information from China about the proven effectiveness of masks/glasses even in highly concentrated viral locations such as ICU wards.

Where are these masks coming from?

It seems nuts not to wear masks as even if you doubt the ability to keep you safe it is proven in decades of surgical procedures to prevent you infecting others. The quickest way to stop a pandemic is surely to stop infecting each other? In the far East they'll wear one just for a cold as it's polite not to make everyone else ill.

One of my factories shipped me a load for free as they thought we were a bit mad. Seems there may not be a global shortage...

Anyone know where they can be purchased from? Had a look over the last few days and only Amazon stocking them and those appear to be dodgy cheap fakes selling for silly price.

From the linked article;

It says people who are sick and show symptoms should wear masks.

But it advises that healthy people only need to wear them if they are caring for others suspected of being infected or if they themselves are coughing or sneezing.

I have access to masks through work but will only be wearing one if I start to show symptoms.

The whole point of herd immunity is that we all catch it at some point so I see it as inevitable that me and my family will be ill eventually, hopefully not to a degree that requires medical intervention.

How long do the masks remain effective? Answering my own question, I assume it's not indefinite so will need replacing on a regular basis. Surely then, only using what could be a limited supply is sensible?

Any proper masks that are available at the minute should be going to the NHS.

Have you been properly fitted, are you wearing goggles too?

Are you staying at home as your supposed to be doing?

I’m calling trollocks on OP. He shouldn’t be in a situation currently where he is close enough to other people to need proper PPE

While yes I agree in an ideal world yes.

Until our front line NHS staff can get access to what they need to do their job (by that I mean our current national supply is restored as they can’t buy what they need due due to their being none and certainly locally are working on people donating their personal stocks )

I won’t be wearing one.

Im with trail_rat let the people who really need this stuff get it.

Most normal people aren’t going to be spending the day in such close contact with infected people.

Your odds are lower of infection and if people respect the current guidelines they should be even more every day 🙂

NHS workers odds aren’t and you really need them to be able to do their job.

Where are these masks coming from?

Haven’t you been listening to the daily press briefings with Public Health England and aa kinds of other govt spokespeople? They’re coming real soon now, within weeks, or maybe longer, oh look! A squirrel!!

My wife is a teacher, she has to go to work and is surrounded by people.
She is not just looking after the children of medical staff but also vulnerable children.
It’s her who I’m thinking of buying the masks for as hand sanitizer doesn’t appear to be sufficient.
My youngest is 11 and has asthma. My worry is my wife catching the virus at school and my daughter catching it.

It seems nuts not to wear masks as even if you doubt the ability to keep you safe it is proven in decades of surgical procedures to prevent you infecting others.

but in the current scenario if you’re ill the way to prevent to the spread to others is to stay home.

we see the use of masks in the east (typically, not in relation to this event) and presume they are worn as self protection but actually people wear a mask because they are ill. It’s out of politeness to others to wear it,

but now out of politeness to other you just stay home if you’re ill.

Any proper masks that are available at the minute should be going to the NHS.

I know folk are clapping us, giving us free and discounted food and the like, and I'm very grateful. But I can't help thinking home helps, folk that work in care homes and social care staff in general are equally as worth proper PPE and a clap to be fair.

Strange that the Chinese are happy to wear them and yet a lot these global pandemics start in China.

Do they work?

I'm with trail rat, as have mentioned elsewhere wife is itu doctor - we haven't even hit near peak yet and they're running out of ppe, or some areas can't even get it like police and community staff.
Thats where stocks should be going.

I’m calling trollocks on OP. He shouldn’t be in a situation currently where he is close enough to other people to need proper PPE

In his defence iirc he’s caring for an elderly relative in his household, and having to go out for supplies. He needs to guard against his own transmission.

I am though with the consensus it should be going to the front line first as a general rule.  I pretty sure the advice is based on a carrier breathing / coughing / sneezing the Virus out rather than protecting against being a recipient host, in which case a mask is of limited protection.

The last thing the UK needs is 65 million people stockpiling 100 masks each and using/ replenishing them at the rate of 3-4 a day

Plus they don't make kids sizes etc etc

Make your own?

Won't be as good, but still better than none.

Any form of barrier has to reduce the odds.

So stocks just to doctors and nurses? Not other essential key workers?
Is it ok for other people looking after the potential health workers children to catch the disease and infect their families?
I’m very close to actually telling my wife she can’t go into school. The provisions available to her are pretty dire. It’s selfish of me, but my daughters health is my priority.

Personally I feel all key workers should have the face masks, from shop staff through to doctors and nurses. I know there is a shortage, but surely that must be fixable?
I’d agree that general public shouldn’t need them as they should be indoors. Also think more needs to be done with regards to food deliveries, but I’m only highlighting issues rather than suggesting fixes.

I dont dispute who needs to get the masks. I have already offered those I know in the NHS ours as and when they come in.

However I am just going to leave this here:

People with mild or no symptoms can have a very high viral load in their upper respiratory tracts, meaning they can shed the virus through spitting, touching their mouths or noses and then a surface, or possibly talking. Even people who don’t feel ill occasionally cough or sneeze.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2238473-you-could-be-spreading-the-coronavirus-without-realising-youve-got-it/#ixzz6IR7D5KrM

We should be careful not to confuse things without absolute proof it works with bad ideas.

Strange that the Chinese are happy to wear them and yet a lot these global pandemics start in China.

Do they work?

They will only work if they are used properly and the VAST majority of people who wear them in public do not do this. If this were implemented for everyone it would likely give a false sense of security. Pointless waste of time for the general public that won't actually do anything to limit the spread of the virus. If people can't keep to the simple "stay 2m apart" then they won't be able to use masks properly.

If may daughters aren't able to wear a proper mask at work caring for patients, I wont be wearing one for the short time I'm out and about on my own...

If I had a stash of masks I know who I'd be giving them to. I can choose to keep out of the way of infected people. They have to get right up close to them.

Is it ok for other people looking after the potential health workers children to catch the disease and infect their families?

Well you have to start somewhere.

It makes sense to ensure those that have the ability to save lives have the kit they need and then tier back from there on a need basis.

As for trying to stop transmission in a school. - with a wife that's also a teacher. That's like trying to part the red sea.

Anyone know what you should do to sterilise re-usable masks?

we see the use of masks in the east (typically, not in relation to this event) and presume they are worn as self protection but actually people wear a mask because they are ill. It’s out of politeness to others to wear it,

but now out of politeness to other you just stay home if you’re ill.

Very much this. Maybe on the back of this event, changes in attitude and working practice will mean people with colds and flu will stay at home more rather than force themselves to go to work and pass it on.

Yes, other key workers should have access to proper masks in the pandemic, once frontline healthcare workers are properly equipped, and then maybe those caring for vulnerable relatives. But suddenly we have a nation stockpiling a billion masks, with a shelf life of 5(?) years, for a (hopefully) once in a 100 year pandemic.

Resilience longer term maybe needs to be around ramping up production locally at short notice

Make your own?

Won’t be as good, but still better than none.

Or it will encourage more people to use masks, pushing up demand, adding to supply problems. And at the same time does a diy mask worn by someone with no fitting, training etc and no regime for changing it actually mean there is increased risk from fitting, adjusting, fiddling with, removing a mask in close proximity to mouth eyes, nose...

Personally I am using a huge containment vessel - it’s not a hermetically sealed bubble but close enough that my family and I function within almost 24/7 - I’m staying in my house except when necessary to leave and then I try to see the fewest possible number of people, none of who seem to be coughing or sneezing so the fact that if they did it might travel further is a little moot.

So I have quite a few masks in my garage. (For Spray painting, brick dust etc.)

Not those little hang off your ear types but the 3M 6000 series and they have the ABE1 Gas & Vapour filters.

These are great masks, if you cover the filters you can’t breathe

Surely these would work far better than what I see being used and I’d happily donate them if we are that short??

I’m very close to actually telling my wife she can’t go into school.

Does your wife know you make all the critical decisions in her life for her? If she was a doctor would you stop her doing her job to save lives too? Teachers are enabling doctors, nurses and others to save lives and helping safeguard vulnerable young people.

My GP friend says masks are of little benefit to the general public. The masks need filters that need changing a lot.

My retired theatre nurse friend says: The type of masks that the public would wear wouldn't be effective because they need changing as much as every 20 mins. They get filled with moisture that can harbour germ/bacteria/virus. The public aren't used to using them, thus fiddling with them continually with their hand, meaning that they are touching their face. Touching one's face is something we must try to avoid.

I'm still seeing people (when out doing the daily exercise) coughing into their hands instead of sleeve or crook of arm, or worse just coughing.

It's a case of wearing the correct kind of mask and using it properly. IMO best to be left to the professionals.

It's pretty irrelevant now if FFP3 masks are proven to be effective in limiting the spread of the virus when used by the general public - you can't get hold of them at anything close to a reasonable price. Surgical masks are available but far less effective. That said if I was having to be in regular contact with others I'd probably be wearing one but as I'm able to stay at home, not in a high risk group and observe social distancing on the rare occasion when outside I don't think a surgical mask is worth it

Does your wife know you make all the critical decisions in her life for her

Victorian Dad husband

@Tiger6791

3M 6000 series and they have the ABE1 Gas & Vapour filters

They're the wrong filters. I believe they need to be a P3 filter to protect against the virus.
They're also the wrong filters to protect you from brick dust.

A - protection against organic vapours
B - protection against inorganic vapours
E - protection against acid gases

So if I managed to find a proper mask, and wear it correctly and change it frequently - does that mean I will never get the virus ?

That sounds great, but then I will always have to wear it wont I, as I will never become imune.

So, do I wait in isolation for a vaccine or just stay more than 2m from others.

Poly, we are in a strong relationship, she can tell me if I am doing anything that may endanger my child and vice versa. Our own children come before the needs of other children and our careers.
We both accept that we have had careers that affect our children’s lives, she had had to tell me to stop and not do something for the benefit of the children. People can get too consumed in their own jobs to see the affects it has on their own family.
This reminds me in a way of my time in the military, going to the gulf with jungle fatigues, having to wait for people to finish their tour before being handed down their desert gear.

The Generalist, have to admit when it comes to the life or the health of my children, then I’ll make a decision.
I guess it’s part of my background, debate and discussion is great. However there comes a time when a decision is needed.
My daughter has asthma, not a little niggle, but reasonably acute. Her health is my priority.

95 year old neighbour, who my family and I care for dearly, I've just about managed to convince her that this is for real. I've been keeping my distnce from her, calling her when I need to talk to her, as she's too deaf to hear from 2m away. Her health visitor wandered in yesterday, no mask or anything, straight in her house.

Now, there's every chance the girl doesn't have a mask, so I'm not annoyed at her, but we really need to get our shit together on this.

Just to add, you may think it’s a Victorian approach to want to protect my children, but if that’s the case so be it.
I was trained to make decision in critical situations.
We discuss where we go on holiday, we discuss what car to get, she works long crazy hours so I do most of the housework and child duties, in fact for most of these day to day things I’m a push over and she pretty much rules the roost. But when we are talking about putting the life of my child at risk, then I’ll make a decision.

wOOdster - you don't have to justify asking your wife. If I was in your position I'd been asking my husband to stop work. Ignore them, they aren't in your position.

No need to worry, we can all have a mask ... as long as we access to lingerie

No need to thank me, it’s for the greater good

I think Bunnyhop's post is pretty clear.

On a positive note masks may help you to reduce facial touching however:

-They may increase it.
-They have to be the right type.
-They have to available.
-They have to fit (no beards or other facial coverings including stubble).
-They have to used correctly.
-They have to be maintained correctly.
-They need to be disposed of correctly.
-They don't protect the eyes.
-PPE is always the last resort when the risk can't be mitigated using other methods.

In our current situation the main drive is to reduce the speed of spread (it's likely, even desirable it goes through the whole population, just in a managed way), by far the best way to do that is the current social isolation protocols.

Gloves are also not very useful, I don't think absorbing the virus through your hands is a major source of infection, touching your face is, gloved or naked hand makes no difference. Again you need to use them properly, dispose of them regularly, take them off correctly etc.

The advice is simple and effective, stay isolated, wash your hands and avoid touching your face, anything else for the general public at the moment is just a dangerous distraction.

FFP2 masks are 91% efficient at stopping the virus and normal surgical masks 68% according to TF1 news last night.

Anything that reduces the dose you get is good because it reduces the chance of you getting the minimum infective dose that's needed to make you ill by the percentage announced.

When they're available I'll be happy to wear one but there's a long list of people with higher priority at the moment. So I'll just stay at home and go for one shop shop a week at a "drive" where you buy on-line, scan a paper and they drop your shop directly in the boot of your car.

In case peopel aern't aware of owhat minimum infective dose is:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227225392_Minimum_Infective_Dose_of_the_Major_Human_Respiratory_and_Enteric_Viruses_Transmitted_Through_Food_and_the_Environment

Really depends where you are and proximity. If you're having to work with people or commute in close proximity to other people, even keeping 2 meter distance, then maybe.

Out in a park, countryside, barely anyone around, no. More so if on a bike and passing someone with clear distance.

That said I'm seeing people on rides wearing them now but more so walkers I pass either wear them or stand to the side shielding their face. The chances of either of us coughing and depositing enough viral load in a brief pass keeping distance is very low.

Anyway, a scarf is all you need. Trump said so.

To reassure people I pass I may wear a buff. I do have a stack of masks though they're DIY ones.

We have access to basic masks at work but I can't use them as they restrict my breathing enough to set off my asthma. Plus, as others have said up above, their use in the Far East is more to prevent an infected person spreading whatever they've got.

Once the US wakes up to the fact that Donald is talking bollocks and that they need a lot more PPE than they have access to we won't be able to get a mask for personal use anyway. They've already tried to play nasty with a possible vaccine, they'll play nasty with procurement of masks too.

ERICPD anyone?

PPE is not the first thing you reach for.
Some of the actions aren’t yet available or viable but isolation is for most of us.

ERICPD is an acronym used by health and safety organisations like IOSH and NEBOSH. It is a 6 step risk assessment model to help us prioritise health and safety hazard control measures in the workplace. It stands for Eliminate, Reduce, Isolate, Control, PPE and Discipline.

Gloves are also not very useful

Yep, this. The number of people you see in the supermarket, etc wearing gloves who then jump into their cars and drive off still wearing the same gloves... whatever was on those gloves from the shops is now all over your car, house.

There's a time and a place for gloves (along with procedures for changing them and taking them off). They're no substitute for a strong hand washing / sanitising regime though.