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Great result for the SNP but i dont think it is part of any upsurge in support for independence and more to do with the nature of Holyrood elections. For a sizeable section of the electorate, who are not party die hards, then the pattern of voting between Holyood and Westminster elections has diverged. Partly to do with the different voting systems and partly to do with thinking on who represents interests better in each parliament. For Westminster then Labour actually did pretty well in the General Election last year, their share of the vote increased in Scotland while it collapsed elsewhere, this was against the trend of a decline in support for them at Holyrood election. The SNP did a pretty good job when given a chance, Labour were - i'm not going to say bad because that would have meant doing something - they were just anonymous then there was the Lib Dem collapse.
All that explains the results more than an upsurge in support for independence. Now however it starts to get interesting - an unpopular Tory led government in Westminster with a strong SNP government in Holyrood - this could potentially be fertile ground for a growth in support for independence.
maths looks good *(BBC)
Scotland
Party Seats Total Votes
SNP 53 902,915
Labour 15 630,461
Conservative 3 276,652
so most people didn't want SNP but SNP gets vast,vast majority of seats........ (*this is not anti SNP, Wales is the same re Labour), I'm just pointing out that the majority of people in Scotland who voted did not vote SNP but they will be governed by them - so I'm failing to see how the current system can be legitimately described as either fair or working (in any part of UK).
You do have to check the regional votes as well, gusamc - SNP got slightly lower proportion there (largely because that's where the Green/others vote was concentrated than because Lab/Lib/Con did better in that - Labour actually did significantly worse), though obviously fewer seats through it than the other major parties. In total combined SNP don't have vast majority of seats, but what would appear to be a fairly comfortable working majority.
Those figures dont include the second votes which are on regional lists rather than on a constituency basis - with those added the SNP end up with 69, Labour 37 and Tories 15, so it works out a bit more proportionate in the end.
It is a pretty good compromise of an electoral system - keeps the link with constituency and local representation, but also adds a bit of balance ontop of that.
As a fairly even minded english individual who has visited and enjoyed Scotland I hope you gain independence! Most of us english aren't that fussed by the past and past imperial glories as the northern irish found out, its all from the 19th century and has no place in the 21st, BUT if you think its all gonna be easy forget it! we had the power to make our own decisions taken away by the EU a long time ago and I'm pro europe so good luck and prepare for some disappointment!
Oh and aren't the oil/gas fields nearly drained dry?
I'm very happy, and can't wait to get my chance to vote yes in the referendum.
Unfortunately I live in a constituency that returned a labour candidate; a constituency full of poorly educated working class folk. Why do they vote over and over again for the same eijets that continually fail to do anything to improve their lot? People of Cambuslang and Rutherglen, you need a good shake. James Kelly my arse.
I'm very happy, and can't wait to get my chance to vote yes in the referendum.
Me also.
Count me in too. I'll vote yes for Scottish independence but only if Kent joins the Scottish Parliament.
its all from the 19th century and has no place in the 21st
Yeah the 19th century is ages ago eh?
The Highland Clearances were still going on till about 80 years before World War I, with tens of thousands evicted and left to freeze or starve. But hey that's old history and no reason to hold a grudge. 😉
It's not like the English still harbour a dislike of the French based on wars from the 12th century! 😀
Yeah the 19th century is ages ago eh?The Highland Clearances were still going on till about 80 years before World War I, with tens of thousands evicted and left to freeze or starve. But hey that's old history and no reason to hold a grudge.
It's not like the English still harbour a dislike of the French based on wars from the 12th century!
Just a question, but weren't the Clearances by and large led by the Scottish Clan Lairds? From what i have read about it these (mainly London based it has to be said) Scots Clan leaders sold their own extended family members down the river when it became clear that sheep were far more profitable than crofting.
Yes, it was done with the complicity of the London Govt but to claim it was an English plot is a bit disingenious don't you think?
mainly [s]London[/s]Edinburgh based it has to be said
And crofting was a bi-product of the clearances. Landlords moved the tenant farmers off of the hill onto lowland and coastal crofts. These crofts were deliberately made so small and unproductive that the crofters would still require to work for the "estate".
to claim it was an English plot is a bit disingenious don't you think?
Indeed.
I was under the impression that most of the Scots Aristocracy hot-footed it to London as quickly as they could in order to be nearer the centre of power in the new order?
I quite like some of what Salmond says, but he is someone I would never tire of slapping.
And those in the Labour Party still see it that way - hence the shower of numpties left up here.muddydwarf - Member
I was under the impression that most of the Scots Aristocracy hot-footed it to London as quickly as they could in order to be nearer the centre of power in the new order?
And those in the Labour Party still see it that way - hence the shower of numpties left up here
Good point Druidh, to the big parties Scottish and Welsh politics continue to be seen as 2nd level politics compared to Westminster, and they wonder why the localised/nationalist parties gain ground?
Talk is now of some newly-elected Labour MSPs standing down to force by-elections so that some "big-hitters" like Douglas Alexander (!) and Jim Murphy could be parachuted into Holyrood. Assuming they'd even be interested, I can't help but feel that this is somewhat immoral and a bit of a betrayal of those Labour supporters that bothered to put pencil to paper on Thursday.
Of course, there's no guarantee that Labour would win any be-election either....
I'd be a bit put out if i was a Labour voter in those constituencies that's for sure. "Right lads, you do all the grunt work getting the votes, we'll put the top boys in when there's no risk to them!"
muddydwarf - Member
Just a question, but weren't the Clearances by and large led by the Scottish Clan Lairds?...
Very true.
And what many Scots don't realise, English outrage at these clearances was one of the factors in stopping them.
Looking forward to Scottish independence so that the rest of the Uk parliament no longer includes scottish representation and we can't have a repeat of Brown & Darling screwing things up for the rest of the country (although Brown did save the world economy remember :roll:), and England can finally have free prescriptions & hospital parking, as well as more spending per capita paid for by the UK taxpayer.
A Scottish independence referendum would probably get a better turnout if opened up for all of the UK to vote in :lol:.
muddydwarf - Member
I'd be a bit put out if i was a Labour voter in those constituencies that's for sure. "Right lads, you do all the grunt work getting the votes, we'll put the top boys in when there's no risk to them!"
Already been done. Sean Woodward got put into St Helens as a safe seat, despite his rude Tory background. My old gran, who was from St Helens, bless her soul, always said stick a pig in a red jacket & St helens would vote for it. Seems like she was right then.
You would already have these things if enough people in England voted for them. You can't really blame the Scots/Welsh for the decisions made on these devolved matters in England.missingfrontallobe - Member
England can finally have free prescriptions & hospital parking,
Strange isn't it? It would appear that a somewhat larger percentage of the English (and Welsh?) Electorate would vote for Scots Independence than the Scottish Electorate, all based on what we 'think' we know about the relative financial contributions of the Nations.
Somehow doubt the English and Welsh would be asked to vote on it but if they 'did' would it be legally binding - i.e. could we actually force Scotland out of the Union?
And what many Scots don't realise, English outrage at these clearances was one of the factors in stopping them.
I'm often amused at the misconceptions from both sides of the Border as to who did what to whom, from my perspective there does seem to be some luxuriating in the 'victim' status from some Scots where the English are concerned.
Also a lot of ignorance from the English as to Scots contributions to our shared history.
Well, you can't force someone "out" of a union, but you can dissolve the union. As the original union was actually a Treaty, either parliament could dissolve it any time they wished. You'd end up with two new countries, both of which would have to re-negotiate any other international treaties which the UK had signed up to.muddydwarf - Member
Strange isn't it? It would appear that a somewhat larger percentage of the English (and Welsh?) Electorate would vote for Scots Independence than the Scottish Electorate, all based on what we 'think' we know about the relative financial contributions of the Nations.Somehow doubt the English and Welsh would be asked to vote on it but if they 'did' would it be legally binding - i.e. could we actually force Scotland out of the Union?
Well not 'new' Coutries per se but i see your meaning.
Would admission to the EU for example be dependent on who left the Union? If say Scotland voted for Independence and became a Soveriegn Nation again would this have an effect on England and Wales' membership of the EU?
Not as I see it - if Scotland dissolves the Union, then Great Britain no longer exists and the UK of GB&NI is left in some sort of limbo state too. I guess there's a chance that the position of NI might come up for question too?
English outrage at these clearances was one of the factors in stopping them
Not sure about that, but it was the Liberals in the late 1880's that recognised the plight of the crofters which is why there is still so much strong support for the Lib Dems in the western and northern isles. Well there was until Thursday!
Could all be very interesting when/if the SNP put forward the referendum then. Mind you, that fish woman was on the news this morning stating that the SNP would hold a referendum "at some point in the 5yr term". That smacks to me of trying to punt the issue of Independence into the long grass as the SNP know the majority of Scots will apparently vote 'no'. Would that then invalidate the existence of the SNP as it's core premise is the issue of Independence?
Personally i don't care much either way, doesn't affect me at all really, just an interesting idea.
Alternatively, it's keeping to the timetable which was promised during the election campaign? Changing that would, presumably, lead to accusations of opportunism.muddydwarf - Member
Could all be very interesting when/if the SNP put forward the referendum then. Mind you, that fish woman was on the news this morning stating that the SNP would hold a referendum "at some point in the 5yr term". That smacks to me of trying to punt the issue of Independence into the long grass as the SNP know the majority of Scots will apparently vote 'no'.
That's always been my belief. The SNP has policies which seem to stretch across the political spectrum. A separate Scotland would see a re-invigorated Socialist Labour party which would take much of that core SNP support. The few right-wingers would, presumably merge with the Tories to form a somewhat right-wing party. But this is all complete guess-work...Would that then invalidate the existence of the SNP as it's core premise is the issue of Independence?
The SNP have been backing off the independence issue in favour of a "whatever is best for Scotland approach". They could have held a referendum early last term whilst Wendy Alexander was leader of the Scottish Labour party. The SNP ducked this opportunity, they know they will lose.
oops
glitchy!
HAHAHA! always strikes me as funny that so many individuals that consider themselves intelligent are hypnotized by the smoke and mirrors show, that is politics.
Regardless of the policies, practices and individuals involved, if they cannot manage resources, then they should not be in charge of them!
All of the truly gifted individuals in the world that is to say business types and Entrepreneurs are simply interested in doing their thing, getting some resources and then ****ing off, away from all the shite that is the ratrace, until we can find a way to get them involved in the running of our country and subsequently the destiny of our species.
We will continue to be a species without competent leadership or any kind of direction.
Politics is that art of convincing fools that you can do what you say! me I don't want to be told what someone or what some body of people can do, I want to be shown.
So far the entire history of politics hasn't shown me jack shit, I need to see!
druidh - Member
...The SNP has policies which seem to stretch across the political spectrum. A separate Scotland would see a re-invigorated Socialist Labour party which would take much of that core SNP support...
An independent Scotland wouldn't need the SNP any longer, so the Labour and Libs would probably regain their voters unless the SNP found a new mission.
IMO many of the SNP voters are doing it on the basis of independence for Scotland first and then sort out the internal politics.
Now i'm not so sure of that. To my outside perspective it does seem as though the Scots Electorate are more concerned with having a real voice for Scotland in the Union than with actual Independence. As the SNP are currently the only real alternative to the traditional parties then people are voting for them. Either the other parties focus on Scottish issues or the SNP attempt to lead Scotland to Independence.
Thing is, what will happen to the SNP if - as currently predicted - Scotland returns a no verdict on Independence?
Will the SNP then lose a no-confidence motion? Will they implode?
Retract, possibly. Remember, it took two attempts to get the limited devolution already in place.muddydwarf - Member
Thing is, what will happen to the SNP if - as currently predicted - Scotland returns a no verdict on Independence?
Will the SNP then lose a no-confidence motion? Will they implode?
good luck to the SNP and the independent scotch!
I trust we'll no longer have them sending any more of the likes of Brown, Darling, Kennedy etc down south to opress us southern softies 😆
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news-in-pictures/news-briefly/scotland-takes-historic-step-towards-finding-out-how-poor-it-is-201105063784/ ]The Daily Mash take on it[/url]
independent scotch
whisky?
A photo and a headline/by-line - is that the best they can come up with? Proof that humour is, indeed, in very short supply at the Daily Mash.
Gonna be an interesting few years ahead then.
Toad-face is far too crafty to risk losing a referendum by having an 'independence now: yes or no' vote. He adopts a softly softly approach. The referendum will include an option for more powers for Holyrood which people might go for. He is attempting independence one small step at a time, & so far it is working.
Thing is, how far can he take it?
I can't see many Scots saying no to the idea of more devolved powers but how far can that go before Westminster says "No, if you want any more you'll have to go it alone".
At that point he'll either have to call a referendum or back down and lose face. His big selling point so far has been standing up to Westminster/The English (yeah, i know...) if he's seen to bow before Westminster what will it do to the SNP?
Will it re-enforce his pro-Independence position because of 'perfidious Albion' or will he be seen as a failure and lose power?
Love him or loathe him, Alex Salmond is, by far, the outstanding politician of his generation. He will have considered all possible courses of action and will have made plans accordingly.