edit - Don’t want to start an argument in the usual STW style
#fakenews
Regardless of what you believe, funkmasterp, there is still historical, cultural, anthropological, and social fact behind the claims being asserted in some of the above posts.
I would not imagine trying to posit articles of faith as empirical fact, and therefore have no intention of bringing the ideas you list into this discussion.
I am only disputing claims such as the Christian observance of Easter is derived from Eostra. Either that is factual or it is not. And I am saying it is not.
Saxon, I will also agree with funkmasterp (including the bit about being a great guy) but that link you posted is supposed to be evidence? Why would that be any more convincing than any other toss that gets posted on the internet? History for atheists - from a completely unbiased (religious) POV!
Why is easter called easter - because its superimposed on the pagan spring festival. Same as christmas. Clever work by the eraly christians to put their festivals on when the pre christians had theirs. Nothing to do with the dates these things supposedly happened.
the fact that the Christian leaders who set the date couldn’t actually agree on the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection, which one would imagine were pretty clear cut
Easter is fixed relative to Passover, and Passover is fixed in the Jewish calendar. The solar calendar you and I use isn't the only one.
Why is easter called easter – because its superimposed on the pagan spring festival.
Also not true. Jesus was crucified after the last supper which was his Passover feast. It's not super-imposed at all. It just happens to be in the spring, so it has *merged* with pre-Christian festivals, for sure. But the Christians didn't pick the date to co-incide with them.
I am only disputing claims such as the Christian observance of Easter is derived from Eostra. Either that is factual or it is not. And I am saying it is not.
The timing of it is tho. Its what the early christians did - take and existing pagan festival and superimpose their festival on it good PR move, no basis in fact.
The timing of it is tho.
Nope - see above.
Why is it that anyone who ever posts anything mildly non pc on here is accused of causing offence, yet religion seems to be a fair target, despite I'm assuming that a fair few people on here will find the op's post pretty offensive .
I should say It does not offend me in the slightest, but then nothing on here does. I do find the hypocrisy pretty cringe worthy however.. The amount of times I've seen posters criticised for being intolerant of others viewpoints only appears to work one way on this site.
superimposed on the pagan spring festival. Same as christmas.
There’s a suggestion that Xmas is celebrated on 25th December because it was already the date of the Roman celebration of Sol Invictus which started in the 3rd century AD, not so long before Christianity was institutionalised in the Roman Empire.
History for atheists – from a completely unbiased (religious) POV!
I put it up because I get tired of writing mini essays on late-antique history, and that writer nails it. In any case, as you'll see from his 'about me' page, the writer is himself a fully paid-up atheist. He just gets as frustrated with pseudo history as I do. 🙂
Also, it's only called Easter in Germanic langauges afaik - in others (including the ones that would have been spoken at the council of Nicea) it's not. So the name thing is nothing whatsoever to do with the 'early Christians'.
Christian leaders who set the date couldn’t actually agree on the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection, which one would imagine were pretty clear cut
Thats assuming that there was one set of Christian leaders. There weren’t, there were different sects much as there are today, hence little agreement over when to celebrate.
A proper religious debate would be interesting but this is like listening to kids talk about sex.
including the ones that would have been spoken at the council of Nicea
Iirc Nicaea would have included representatives of all major Christian communities (including Britain and Northern European countries?) so should have had a fair spread of languages. (I suspect the word Easter is a later development though?)
A proper religious debate
Ooh, I’ll bow out then - I though it was a historical debate. 🤔
That's assuming that there was one set of Christian leaders. There weren’t, there were different sects much as there are today, hence little agreement over when to celebrate.
This is partially true. Early Christianity grew out of the various Jewish communities dispersed around the Western Mediterranean world, extending even as far as the Arabian Peninsula. But well within the first century, they began to co-mingle with Greeks, and draw on Greek philosophy to wrestle with their central-most ideas.
In the process, different groups sprang up in parallel with the mainstream communities, all of whom looked to a group of recognised successors to the apostles.
Iirc Nicaea would have included representatives of all major Christian communities (including Britain and Northern European countries?)
Well, AIUI Britain was mostly Pagan until 600 AD ish, and the Council of Nicaea was in 325AD, so I doubt it.
I though it was a historical debate.
I wasn't complaining about your input, please continue 🙂
Iirc Nicaea would have included representatives of all major Christian communities (including Britain and Northern European countries?) so should have had a fair spread of languages. (I suspect the word Easter is a later development though?)
The language of Nicaea was Greek, and was certainly too early for inclusion of Northern European participation. Pelagius is the earliest known figure on the Christian landscape, and he was two generations after.
In any case, Easter is a Saxon term - a language not known in Britain until sometime in the 5th century.
No it wasn’t Molgrips. It was Romanised and Christianity almost certainly spread here as it did through the rest of the Roman world. It didn’t become a state religion obviously. There isn’t much archaeological evidence but there interesting early burials near Hadrians Wall. And yes, there were documented British representatives at Nicaea.
There were no documented British representatives at Nicaea I, IdleJon. Where are you getting this from?
Yes easter is a saxon word. Like much of modern english. Uncannily similar to the name of the pagan fertilty festival which is celebrated at the spring equinox.
Saxonrider - why are the symbols of easter rabbits and eggs? What have they got to do with christianity? Or are the remmnants of the earlier festivals? Same as holly, ivy and mistletoe at christmas - relics of the pre christian midwinter solstice feast.
Its funny how these pre christian symbols used at pre christian midwinter solstice and spring equinox festivals are now supposdly "christian" when none of them actually have any connection with christianity
there is no doubt at all that these christian festivals were superimposed on pre christian ones.
Please don’t make me trawl through my history books, Saxon Rider. It’s too late and I’ve got wine to drink. 🤣
Anyway, what evidence is there that Greek was spoken when the council was called by Constantine who was a (modern day) Serbian Roman? Yes, Byzantium later spoke Greek but why would they have done so at this date, in what was still the Roman Empire in Turkey?
Oi vay. Because Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire even as late as the fourth century. Latin only takes precedence in the Western Empire after Constantine. That, and the texts of Nicaea are in Greek. I know this because I've worked with them.
From the second paragraph of the Wikipedia entry:
Koine Greek had become a shared language around the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor as a consequence of the conquests of Alexander the Great.[6] The "linguistic frontier" dividing the Latin West and the Greek East passed through the Balkan peninsula.[7] Educated Romans, particularly those of the ruling elite, studied and often achieved a high degree of fluency in Greek, which was useful for diplomatic communications in the East even beyond the borders of the Empire. The international use of Greek was one condition that enabled the spread of Christianity, as indicated for example by the choice of Greek as the language of the Epistles of Paul[8] and its use for the ecumenical councils of the Christian Roman Empire. With the dissolution of the Empire in the West, Greek became the dominant language of the Eastern Roman Empire, later known as the Byzantine Empire.
Depends what you mean by 'superimposed'. I don't think the Council of Nicaea said 'ok let's have our festival at the same time as the Pagans, that way we can take over their existing pissup'. Is that what you're suggesting?
Do churches do easter bunnies and eggs?
“
Moses
Member
You’ll go to hell for that”
Typical response from one of you Old Testament types.
You’ve worked with later translations of the texts, SR, not the original texts, I assume? Anyway, good enough explanation. In all my reading I’ve never thought about the various languages of the empire. Apparently Constantine could speak Greek well enough despite Latin being his first language.
Btw if we are using Wikipedia as evidence:
“Delegates came from every region of the Roman Empire, including Britain.[28]”
That must be true! (But I’ve read it elsewhere and I can’t find where. I suspect the name of the token Brit wasn’t documented as I said earlier.)
And look at us - Saturday night, arguing for minor point about an ecumenical council 1700 years ago. Rock and roll!
You’ve worked with later translations of the texts, SR, not the original texts, I assume?
Pretty sure he meant the original texts.
Ideljon - on what I know of saxonrider challenging him on history and theology is a losers game
I would still be interestd tho infrom a christian perspective why all these pre christian symbols are still used. Bunnies, eggs, hollyy, ivy misteltoe etc yew trees in church yards even.
Well, it would seem pretty plausible that regular everyday people can perpetuate pre-christian symbols.. wouldn't it?
on what I know of saxonrider challenging him on history and theology is a losers game
I’m not trying to win, I’m trying to learn, if there is anything to learn. He obviously has a deeper involvement in these things whereas I only have an amateur’s interest.
molgrips, I should have said transcriptions not translations.
Don't really want to get into the christian overlay onto pagan festivals debate, save to say that there's only one recorded reference to any goddess called Eostre (eostra/ostara/whatever), and that's in Bede. The whole Eostre/Easter thing is very flimsy if using that as a hook to hang it on. Some belief that there's a connection to Ishtar too, but not convinced by that either.
More interested (as an art teacher) in the blonde Christ thing. Comes mainly from early Byzantine christian images, which were themselves co-opted images of Apollo/Helios - a curly haired blonde guy with the sun behind his head. The beard came a bit later (3rd to 6th century CE), although the light hair stayed, and wasn't standardised in the west until much later (some early medieval manuscripts from Britain still have him clean-shaven). Basically, the conventional image of Christ was driven by art, not religious belief.
It'll be interesting to see whose brave enough to kick off the mohammed bashing thread come ramadan time...
Perhaps a cartoon to get the ball rolling.
according to a kid at my kids' school - the easter bunny died in a helicopter crash to save mankind.
@bedmaker, I'm sure Jekyll will oblige at Ramadan - ha.
His/her/its' post was stupid which is forgivable but it was clearly intended to be offensive.
All the OP has done is make themselves look like a dick.
In the meantime, this evening's service at Lincoln Cathedral was impressive; setting, music, sense of occasion.
Saxonrider - keep on knocking them down with facts.
Facts? Doctrine and dogma, old fruit. However nice it was in the cathedral.
Agree about the appropriation myths though, convenient excuses for modern living for the shouty atheist.
Bedmaker, I wonder if a cartoon would cause
maximum [s]Christian[/s] Muslim offence.
Note that this is quoted, not my words. Apparently, "maximum Christian offence" is a matter of "respect" for some here. Classy.
Quite jealous FC, I imagine Lincoln was a majestic setting, one for the bucket list, fear I wont make our daybreak vigil and mass, 8.00 more likely.
Quite jealous FC 2 Hamilton Academicals 3
+1 bedmaker, I'm not religious but my parents are so I tend not to do a full Dave Allen at the breakfast table when I visit.
But as an aside, blond hair was not unique, Alexander the Great and Ptolemy was supposed to be blond and he may have sowed a few seeds in the area.
Facts? Doctrine and dogma, old fruit.
How the Council of Nicaea determined the date of Easter is a matter of historical fact, isn't it?
As for appropriation of symbols - did the Church actually do this officially? Did the Archbishop of Canterbury tell us to use bunnies and chocolate eggs to celebrate Easter, at any point?
More the rising from the dead bit rather than the date of being crucified bit.
