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Not someone arguing for Christianity being the source of morality in the West would really want to use though. His background is a good example of how Christianity was heavily influenced by the various other religions, not just Judaism, and the Greek philosphers.
Every educated person would be influenced by Greek philosophers and that held for centuries, however his views on sin, grace, freedom and sexuality were a radical deprture from the ancient philosophical and cultural tradition and were highly controversial at the time. Christianity was the game changer that caused this departure.
Is this the chritianity that insists we must suffer before death to atone for our sins? That insists condom use to prevent aids is unacceptable? That treats women and LGBTQ folk as lessor beings? Thatbelieves the pope is infallible? That coveted up and facilitated child abuse? That has been used as a justufication for war. That finds it acceptable to lie if you are doing gods work? That is usex as a tool toco trol people?
Etc etc
That wants to impose this " morality" on the secular
I find christianity to be amoral and abhorent
Different creeds have very diffent moral codes anyway. Some less amoral than others
Church Times
OK, I read one of your Church Times articles here:
Still none the wiser as to why it's happening.
Going on Reddit it does seem that Petersen and Tate are the main drivers:
Do a ctrl-f to see how many direct references are made and have a look at the rest of the replies to see how many indirect references are made.
Maybe The Guardian isn't as full of shit as you'd like.
I think that the understanding of Christian teachings has been evolving since the beginning and it is reflected by the events of the societies involved.
Al.ostvas if its a load of made up nonsense being twisted to suit your argument
Its either the absolute word of god or its meaningless
Wow, going down some Catholic message board rabbit holes.
I didn't realise how much practicing Catholics hated the recently deceased Pope.
Religion probably partly explains why humans society has thrived and existed as long as it has.
Depends on how you’re defining ‘religion’ - are you using (relatively) recent monotheistic practices, or much more ancient polytheistic practices.
For example, Australian indigenous peoples have stories of the ‘Dreamtime’, which refers to a cataclysmic event that has been corroborated by modern scientists as having happened 45,000 years ago, and which includes what they consider to be deities, or at least creators of things they saw, and see around them.
North American indigenous peoples have multiple deities that are referred to in their stories about the creation of the world, that are pretty consistent across approximately 350 different tribes with different origins and languages, their origins as inhabitants of the continent date back roughly 35,000 years. That corresponds to the last ice age in Europe and the U.K., and the disappearance of the last of the Neanderthals at least from what is now Britain. I’ll bet they had stories about how their world was created,
and Tate are the main drivers:
Andrew Tate claims to have converted to Islam in 2022 so I don't see how he could have influenced an increase in church attendance.
Jordan Petersen as far as I am aware is not deeply religious so I cant imagine that he has had any significant effect on church attendance. Does he even go to church himself?
In the UK most of the increases in church attendance appear to have been in the catholic church, if we are looking at the possibility an individual might be responsible for that the obvious candidate would be Pope Francis, I would have thought, especially as the increase appears to have happened under his watch.
Blimey this forum is screwed, you can't edit on this thread anymore, at least I can't. And the format is once again ****ed.
Wow, going down some Catholic message board rabbit holes.
I didn't realise how much practicing Catholics hated the recently deceased Pope.
But they're all agreed that their Christian values essentially came from Second Temple Judaism right?
Andrew Tate claims to have converted to Islam in 2022 so I don't see how he could have influenced an increase in church attendance.
Jordan Petersen as far as I am aware is not deeply religious so I cant imagine that he has had any significant effect on church attendance. Does he even go to church himself?
Andrew Tate converted to Islam but has also been accused of Islamaphobia more recently than his conversion. His brother Tristan converted to Christianity. Or re-confirmed his Christianity?
I don't know, who gives a shit what these ****-knuckles believe or don't believe. It's what their disaffected followers think. Like it or not, Catholicism embodies a lot of what they are looking for. It is interesting reading the views of some Catholic women on the subject:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CatholicWomen/comments/198ffsb/why_catholic_men_are_trad/
As for Petersen, you don't have to do much googling to see that he is having an effect:
Why do you think Pope Francis attracted men but not women? You would think the numbers would be at least equal if it was simply because there was a Pope who wasn't a complete arsehole?
Because I think the Pope has more influence on Catholics and the Catholic Church than a geezer who isn't even a Catholic and another geezer who claims to be a Muslim, whatever the opinions of an individual which you might have found on Reddit
I might have had some respect for the Pope if his final act had been taking down Vance.
Because I think the Pope has more influence on Catholics and the Catholic Church than a geezer who isn't even a Catholic and another geezer who claims to be a Muslim, whatever the opinions of an individual which you might have found on Reddit
Actually, it was multiple geezers and multiple articles written by practicing Catholics. And a bunch of Catholic women expressing concerns about the type of men who had been joining the Catholic Church lately.
But anyway, let's assume none of these opinions are correct.
The question I asked you was, why were men attracted to what Pope Francis was doing but not women?
I didn't mean to make you feel miserable. Sorry about that.
Thanks. I can see that the term 'Christian Values' is pretty loaded, but that's why I try to make a distinction between Jesus and Christianity.
Its either the absolute word of god or its meaningless
Lol TJ a very very large number of people disagree with you and have done for centuries. This is not your area of expertise, is it?
FROM THE GUARDIAN ARTICLE (MY BOLD)
However, a recent survey entitledThe Quiet Revival, commissioned by the Bible Society and conducted by YouGov, shows that church attendance in England and Wales has actually increased by 50% over the past six years, and that young people aged between 18 and 24 are the second largest demographic in attendance (behind those who are 65 and over). The trend is especially strong with young men, with 21% aged 18 to 24 saying they attend church at least once a month, compared with 12% of young women. The data also shows that generation Z are particularly drawn to Roman Catholicism, which accounts for a significant rise in the number of Catholics in England, almost closing the overall gap between those who identify as Catholic and those who identify as Anglican.
I find those numbers staggering. Either there really is some major cultural/societal shift, or the survey/sampling is shit. I always am a bit suspicious when a survey commissioned by a particular interest group discovers something which is good news for that group. Perhaps there is some Tate-driven clamour to the church looking for masculinity (or prey)? or equally young men finding sanctuary from that bullshit in a more caring ethos. Interestingly they didn't actually back up the "attendance figures" with any data from churches, this is based on who claimed to attend. Contrast to:
https://www.ucanews.com/news/uk-mass-attendance-jumps-significantly-data-shows/107888
(headline both essentially saying attendance recovering but not yet back to pre-pandemic attendance so contradicting the Quiet Revival 2018-2024 increase claim)
The question I asked you was, why were men attracted to what Pope Francis was doing but not women?
I suggest that you pop into a Catholic church during Sunday mass and note the amount of men relative to the amount of women.Pope Francis actually elevated the role of women within the Catholic Church.
Women have always had higher attendances at church. Pope Francis hasn't done anything to alienate them so you would expect any increase in Church involvement to show an equal increase for both genders, or for more women to be attending.
So why are the numbers showing this unprecedented enthusiasm amongst young men?
The only explanation I've seen is worrying. That it's young men in the manosphere or manosphere adjacent who are being attracted because of the idea of 'tradition' that the Church seems to represent.
I'm asking you for an alternative explanation. You aren't providing one. All you're doing is getting more and more defensive about this concerning possibility that is being floated.
If you have an alternative explanation I'd like to hear it?
Bruce your explanation is certainly possible, but whilst I'm no fan of the Church(es), to an outsider to both the church and the manosphere they don't seem like obvious bedfellows. So alternative explanations:
1. The increase is not real, or at least the most surprising gender/age effects are not real
2. Rather than being encouraged towards the church by the manosphere, they are going there to get away from it
Both of those could be wrong too, or all three might be right in different areas / specific churches etc. The idea that the church is becoming a haven for toxic masculinity (rather than other forms of harm) doesn't really explain why the numbers of young women are allegedly increasing too, albeit at a slower rate - you would expect that to discourage them.
I write this as someone who has only voluntarily attended an ordinary church service once, and that was as a teenager who fancied the minister's daughter. I imagine the experience would need to be quite different to mine to get people with no actual interest in religion consistently going back!
Absolutely, there could be alternative explanations.
However, like I said, I started going down some Catholic forum rabbit holes which do seem to back up the manosphere theory. It's something that's probably worth keeping an eye on. Especially if the American branch of the Catholic Church grows in influence. Those guys seem genuinely scary.
Of course, reddit and forums aren't the best place to get a real sense of what is going on in a community. If you came here to find out about mountain biking you would end up assuming most mountain bikers don't actually do any mountain biking. And those who do hate it.
Having attended more church services than most of you, most recently morning mass at Notre dame, I find the idea that Tate and Peterson fans are the latest recuits implausible. No tatoos, no radical hair cuts, drab boring middle-class attire, no shades - you know those meme photos of boring harmless nerds, well that's a typical young person in a congregation. I've got discretely taken photos to prove it but won't be posting them.
Having attended more church services than most of you, most recently morning mass at Notre dame, I find the idea that Tate and Peterson fans are the latest recuits implausible. No tatoos, no radical hair cuts, drab boring middle-class attire, no shades - you know those meme photos of boring harmless nerds, well that's a typical young person in a congregation. I've got discretely taken photos to prove it but won't be posting them.
We are living through very turbulent times - at first socially, then economically. In the 60s, people were too cool to do what their parents were doing, that persisted through the 70s and then 80s material kids had no need for any of it. In the 90s and early 2000s we were better off, now the pace of change and 'churn' of ideas is so rapid that I can absolutely see the appeal of something like Church with its stable communities cutting across age groups. Almost certainly a better social group than your Twitter followers. Perhaps it's just a natural swing back.
I mean, I'm a 70s/80s kid and my attitude has softened hugely since I was young. I won't be attending, but I am certainly a lot more sympathetic partly through some of my own life experiences.
I find the idea that Tate and Peterson fans are the latest recuits implausible. No tatoos, no radical hair cuts, drab boring middle-class attire, no shades - you know those meme photos of boring harmless nerds, well that's a typical young person in a congregation.
I think your mental image of the average Tate or Petersen fan and the reality of the average Tate and Petersen fan are quite far removed.
We are living through very turbulent times - at first socially, then economically. In the 60s, people were too cool to do what their parents were doing, that persisted through the 70s and then 80s material kids had no need for any of it. In the 90s and early 2000s we were better off, now the pace of change and 'churn' of ideas is so rapid that I can absolutely see the appeal of something like Church with its stable communities cutting across age groups. Almost certainly a better social group than your Twitter followers. Perhaps it's just a natural swing back.
Sure, but at the same time the major anomaly here is that it's young men who are being attracted rather than young people.
Women have always outnumbered men in church participation up until now. The question is, what has changed so that suddenly we have almost twice as many Gen-Z men going to church as Gen-Z women?
the major anomaly here is that it's young men who are being attracted rather than young people.
Agree, and there could plausibly be a sinister reason for it as you say.
I think you might have Tate and Peterson mixed up with other people. I think Tate does have tats, but not always on display? I don't think Peterson has any (on display). Both clearly put some effort into their looks but I don't think I'd describe either as having radical hair cuts or attire that wasn't "middle class".Having attended more church services than most of you, most recently morning mass at Notre dame, I find the idea that Tate and Peterson fans are the latest recuits implausible. No tatoos, no radical hair cuts, drab boring middle-class attire, no shades -
I don't, but have you spoken to many boring nerds - quite a few actually follow Tate (and probably Peterson) - you don't need to buy the Armani (other brands are available) suit, drive the Ferrari (other brands are available) or wear designer sunnies to think that those things and the people associated with them are aspirational or that their manifesto makes sense.you know those meme photos of boring harmless nerds,
well that's a typical young person in a congregation.
it could also be an "incel" perhaps the religious interest is trying to justify themselves as voluntarily celibate!
Agree, and there could plausibly be a sinister reason for it as you say.
It could also be that the same root cause that is driving some young men to the manosphere is also driving other young men to the church.
The route cause being isolation, loneliness, lack of purpose, lack of opportunities, etc. But then you'd expect to see the same trend with the Anglican Church which doesn't seem to be happening. At least not to the same extent.
I just think it's worth keeping an eye on. It will also be worth seeing if the next Pope continues with the direction Francis was trying to take or not.
Look at the rebuilding of Notre Dame after the fire a couple of years ago, nearly everyone in France thought it was a national disaster, the rebuilding to as original as possible was supported by an overwhelming majority of people, they must all be suckers, right?
France is a bit of an outlier due to The Terror, religion was removed (forcibly in some cases) from every day political decision making. In comparison to The Irish Republic where Catholicism was up until quite recently still driving all political decision making. They have not completely freed themselves from its grip but they're getting there.
Theocracy of any sort has no place in modern politics!
Women have always had higher attendances at church. Pope Francis hasn't done anything to alienate them so you would expect any increase in Church involvement to show an equal increase for both genders, or for more women to be attending.
I think you might have got that arse about face. As you point out women have always had higher attendance in church than men so for that reason it is logical to assume there is the potential for a greater number of men to now become attracted to attending church than women.
And as you say Pope Francis hasn't done anything to alienate women, in fact their role in the Catholic Church today is the most prominent it has been since the days of the early Christians.
"Altar boys" no longer exist and I suspect that the overwhelming majority of altar servers are now girls. Likewise I suspect that the majority of the readings in masses are said by women as are probably also the majority of eucharistic ministers.
I can't imagine that now is a good time for misogynist men to get attracted to the Catholic Church, whatever a pair of non-Catholic influencers might have to say.
In fact said they said anything at all? Whatever the answer I feel confident that Pope Francis has had a higher profile with regards to the Catholic Church than a self-proclaimed Muslim such as Andrew Tate.
I think you might have got that arse about face. As you point out women have always had higher attendance in church than men so for that reason it is logical to assume there is the potential for a greater number of men to now become attracted to attending church than women.
Nope, we aren't talking about a percentage increase, we're talking about absolute numbers. In terms of absolute numbers almost twice as many Gen-Z men are going to Church as Gen-Z women.
And the same isn't being seen in the Anglican Church.
You have to wonder how much of this is because of Catholic Tiktok (and such like). In which case that would explain why it's the Catholic Church that is seeing the increase and not the Anglicans.
I'm not sure if that would be a good thing as the Catholic Church in the US does not really seem to be on board with the ideas Pope Francis had. And that's putting it lightly.
The route cause being isolation, loneliness, lack of purpose, lack of opportunities, etc.
How wholly unlike organised religion to target such people. Praying and preying is only one vowel apart.
In other news, a bunch of replies.
Christian morality is highly misogynistic and homophobic
Gonna call this one. There is nothing in Christian mythology which encourages homophobia. Rather, the bible says "don't put it up the botty" about 6 times without ever specifying the gender of the recipient. Christian "morality" is against anal sex, not homosexuality.
Of course, that doesn't mean that some folk might twist that. Whatever your world views, the texts are so self-contradictory that you can probably find something in the bible which reinforces your opinion.
The Catholic Church still won’t endorse the use of contraception,
Apologies if I've posted this before. An ex of mine went to a Catholic high school, with your actual nuns milling about. The sum total of her sex education classes was "don't do it, but if you do do it then don't use a condom as that offends god." This was in the 1980s, at the height of the AIDS pandemic. It wasn't just "teenage pregnancy" reckless, it was "you could catch an incurable disease and die" levels of recklessness.
I've kinda become less militant over the years about religion, but this sort of myopic idiocy has my urine on a rolling boil.
Nowhere do I state there was no morality before christianity
I'm with TJ here, that's exactly what you were implying. Does "roots" have an alternative meaning from the one I'm familiar with?
We're so used to the idea of fundamental human rights and everyone being of equal value that we forget that these ideas were spread (at least in our tradition) by Jesus and whilst to us it seems pretty basic, these were radical and dangerous ideas at the time, and that's what got him killed.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the fables are true, what got him killed was presenting a threat to the Roman Empire's established power and control.
AIUI, I am not a Theologist.
In terms of absolute numbers almost twice as many Gen-Z men are going to Church as Gen-Z women.
I don't believe that for one minute. There is absolutely no way that twice as many young men attend catholic churches than young women.
I don't know about other areas but locally in (West) Croydon the typical demographic of Catholic Church attendance includes a very significant amount of black girls/women in their teens and twenties.
This thread has got me wondering which causes more harm to society: conspiracy theory nuts or religious nuts. Some of the correlations, cause and effects, and assumptions being put forward are more imaginative than Bible verses. 🙂
Christian "morality" is against anal sex, not homosexuality.
Well it is and isn't. Have a look at Dan McClellan (actual proper scholar) on Instagram or whatever he's on.
He says thet "The Bible" doesnt say anything at all; it has no single voice. It's just some human author or another who is saying the thing. So that person might want anal sex forbidden but you don't have to agree. Thats not how the Bible works, no matter how many zealots (on either side) would have you believe.
what got him killed was presenting a threat to the Roman Empire's established power and control.
You obviously missed the bit about the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, "washing his hands" of the death of an innocent man?
I don't believe that for one minute. There is absolutely no way that twice as many young men attend catholic churches than young women.
OK, we don't have decent data, but what we do have suggests that overall it might not be far off that.
The trend is especially strong with young men, with 21% aged 18 to 24 saying they attend church at least once a month, compared with 12% of young women. The data also shows that generation Z are particularly drawn to Roman Catholicism, which accounts for a significant rise in the number of Catholics in England, almost closing the overall gap between those who identify as Catholic and those who identify as Anglican.
If you don't want to accept it that's absolutely fine. I'd question the source for these numbers as well.
However, for several years now we've been reading stories saying that young men are increasingly being drawn to the Catholic Church as well as to Orthodox Christianity. A quick bit of googling will bring up plenty information about it.
.Christian morality is highly misogynistic and homophobic
Gonna call this one. There is nothing in Christian mythology which encourages homophobia. Rather, the bible says "don't put it up the botty" about 6 times without ever specifying the gender of the recipient. Christian "morality" is against anal sex, not homosexuality.
Of course, that doesn't mean that some folk might twist that. Whatever your world views, the texts are so self-contradictory that you can probably find something in the bible which reinforces your opinion.
The Bible is homophobic (as the majority of human societies have been for the majority of human existence). Leviticus 20:13 is pretty clear: “‘If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them."
Or if you want the Common English Bible translation: "If a man has sexual intercourse with a man as he would with a woman, the two of them have done something detestable. They must be executed; their blood is on their own heads."
It's a pretty spectacular twisting of the text to interpret that as a prohibition on anal sex and not homophobic.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020%3A13
Well it is and isn't. Have a look at Dan McClellan (actual proper scholar) on Instagram or whatever he's on.
He says thet "The Bible" doesnt say anything at all; it has no single voice. It's just some human author or another who is saying the thing. So that person might want anal sex forbidden but you don't have to agree. Thats not how the Bible works, no matter how many zealots (on either side) would have you believe.
Well, yes, and that's how books work. The bible is a collection of texts written by men, then translated by other men. The notion that it's the word of god is circular reasoning.
Point is, from the translations of versions into languages that I can understand, homosexuality is not explicitly verboten. I looked into this at length a while ago in order to score Internet Points (I wish I could find it again, it's on here somewhere). Rather it's the physical act which is frowned upon.
You have to wonder how much of this is because of Catholic Tiktok (and such like). In which case that would explain why it's the Catholic Church that is seeing the increase and not the Anglicans.
1) I can't think of any plusible reason why young men would be attending in twice the numbers of young women. And when you get a suprising bit of data without a plausible explanation then it's a distinct possibility that it's simply wrong.
2) if you want to explain why Catholicism, Orthodoxy and esoteric Protestant sects are rising in popularity and the Church of England isn't, don't look at Tiktok - look at immigration for a simpler answer.
A huge mumber of Central and Eastern European EIU citizens camr to the UK under Blair (I cant find a number offhand) - most of those countries are Catholic and their kids are now entering the 16-25 agr bracket.
2 million people (net) immigrated to the UK between 2012 and 2021. Another 728,000 people came in y/e 2024 alone. As the UK is comparatively irreligous, most of those people came from countries that are more religious than the UK, and where there are many Catholics and evangelicals: Nigeria, the Philippines, India, Brazil, Colombia. 220,000ish Ukrainians came the the UK in 2022-2023 - that alone will give you a bump in the number of Orthodox and Catholic adherent, particular at a time of (understandable) nationalist fervour.
Hindus as a proportion of the English population increased by a bit more than 50% in 2001-2021. You wouldn't look at that statistic and think "aha, this proves that British people are converting from atheism to Hinduism because of HindutvaTok". Of course not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_England
Rather it's the physical act which is frowned upon.
..by some bloke two thousand years ago. That doesn't mean it's forbidden unless your priest says it is. And even then you can choose a new priest, because you are free to disagree with him, at least in many traditions. You can draw your own conclusions. All sounds a bit like Western liberalism, doesn't it?
Clearly Western liberalism and many modern Christian variants are interlinked, but which way round? Maybe it's because of the contradictions and obviously ridiculous things in the Bible (like wearing mixed fibres) that people ended up having to interpret and filter it, which demanded a more open minded approach, at least in many cases. TBH even die-hard biblical literalists probably don't stick to the mixing fibres things and stoning adulterers, so even they are applying their own filters. They just want to hate gays, so they cherry pick to suit their agenda which is basically what everyone has to do.
I think once you start looking at how the original Hebrew was translated, that is when you start to find that it might not be as clear as first thought.
https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/redefining-leviticus-2013/
And we're back to Leviticus which was about 1400 years before Christ was even born. If people are going to slag off christianity it would be nice if they limited themselves to the Greek texts and chriist's teachings. Some churches, notably the Jehovas witnesses seem very keen on Leviticus and are unable to see the contradictions with the Greek texts or even within Leviticus itself - thou shall not kill, well apart from stoning to death for having a bit fun. For Christ's sake... . 🙂
Anyhow, Pope Francis did pretty well compared with just about any other contemporary public figure of his rank I can think of and I hope his successor continues in the same vein. Sanna Marin did pretty well too.
1) I can't think of any plusible reason why young men would be attending in twice the numbers of young women. And when you get a suprising bit of data without a plausible explanation then it's a distinct possibility that it's simply wrong.
2) if you want to explain why Catholicism, Orthodoxy and esoteric Protestant sects are rising in popularity and the Church of England isn't, don't look at Tiktok - look at immigration for a simpler answer.
A huge mumber of Central and Eastern European EIU citizens camr to the UK under Blair (I cant find a number offhand) - most of those countries are Catholic and their kids are now entering the 16-25 agr bracket.
You can't think of any plausible reason? What about the one the rest of us have been discussing for the last page or so?
Your immigration theory is definitely plausible. However, the Catholic and Orthodox church's increase in popularity isn't confined to the UK. It's mirrored in the US. And also Australia.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-06/gen-z-religion/104690496
I guess immigration could have something to do with it over there as well but if we're talking about a Western World phenomena involving young people my first instinct is to look at social media.
But yes, data is limited and the possibility it's simply wrong is definitely plausible.