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It’s high time that whips were removed entirely from all horse related sports. The name kind of gives away what it is used for.
If you can’t get them to learn without punishment then don’t bother in my opinion. You can’t describe anything that is part of our leisure activities as completely necessary. There are other ways.
Do you speak horse?
Not really but I know the basics, however riders generally do. How else do you think a horse knows what to do?
Don't watch much of the Olympics usually, just some of the cycling and the athletics. This year I'll be looking forward to the para Olympics as my mates son is running in the 1500m. He's the world champ, and a nice lad, so I've got my fingers crossed he smashes it..
How else do you think a horse knows what to do?
Well by hitting it with something apparently.
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Just sneaked away from work to watch the rugby 7s.
My dog used to lift his paw in exchange for a biscuit. The other paw for another biscuit
It's a bit difficult to feed carrots to a horse whilst you are training it to dance.
Yep, modern dog training is about positive reinforcement, not punishment.
Most people use positive reinforcement but others use punishment.
Horse training apparently isn’t.
See above.
Genuine question...how do you train a horse to dance using positive reinforcement?
Genuine question…how do you train a horse to dance using positive reinforcement?
Perhaps the question should be: Why would you train a horse to dance?
Well yes. That too.
Perhaps the question should be: Why would you train a horse to dance?
Totally. Just because you can, and just because it's been done in the past doesn't make it a worthwhile (or positive) thing to be doing today. But it would be a long long list if I kept on down that path.
Disclaimer. I can ride and was relatively competent but it is not something I would be comfortable doing today so I'm undeniably biased.
And her error of judgement was being filmed. I do not believe this was a one off.
They respond surprisingly well to praise! And being ridden kindly. Of course treats work too. Just not in the same way as you would with a dog.
Clicker training is a good way to use the treats thing to work on refinements once you have the basics.
For pretty dumb animals they can be pretty smart. It might take a little longer with kinder methods but it can be done very effectively.
Trouble is many riders want immediate and obvious results from a lesson. They pay £50. They want to be riding better by the end of the hour. So coaches use methods that satisfy they customer.
A good horse owner and a good coach will play the long game.
Thanks..gs...interesting
I’m confident that nobody gets into horse riding because they hate animals,
What Dujardin did is unacceptable and, as I understand it through my wife, largely condemned.
You can train a horse through positive reinforcement. Whips are ok but not in this way. As someone said above they are largely used for light touch, when you can't reach. Horses can feel flies on their skin so you don't need pain.
In general positive reinforcement takes time. Dressage is exaggerated natural movements in the same way that gymnastics or dancing is for humans. You ask for a movement and if you get something close you give positive reinforcement and build upon it. It takes years.
My wife follows this Lady and is using the approach to train her current horse. It shows a more gentle approach, more in line with how people would train dogs and other pets.
Competition dressage isn't the best though - it follows outdated practices. There are rules around bits and bridals that are simply outdated. I understand you can't compete bitless.
https://nakedhorse.wordpress.com/2015/07/24/a-bit-much/
Many horse riders are wealthy, however, many are also poor and choose it as a lifestyle. It depends on where you ride. Access to horses is going to limit competition. As I understand it, the olympic eventing is actually made easier than many of the international competitions (4* not 5*) because otherwise it would be dominated by a few countries.
Its a difficult one. Certainly it needs to be challenged. The equestrian element got removed from modern pentathlon after Tokyo and rightly so.
It’s either tactical, or someones just pissed off hearing how great she is
All leaks serve a purpose. Of course a video is more subtle than a baseball bat to the knees.
And on another note, there are still tickets available for the Velodrome finals... Hmmm. Tempted.
Whips are ok but not in this way. As someone said above they are largely used for light touch, when you can’t reach. Horses can feel flies on their skin so you don’t need pain.
Sorry, I'm being thick...how is using something to irritate a horse positive reinforcement? You might as well use a small electric shock. I'm genuinely not trolling, and maybe it's not being explained well.
Two dogs - imagine it like being guided how to perfect a swim stroke or a bowling arm or running technique or a million other things. A horse can horse, but some guidance can make it perform more efficiently. Right or wrong I don’t know, but that’s what trainers are doing. (Obviously not the ones that are mistreating animals).
If it’s not supposed to hurt then why not make them in such a way that you can’t cause pain? You could design something that if you swing it too hard it folds in half or something, so only light touches are possible. Those big whips that C Duj was using a clearly designed to hurt, so why do they even exist??
Two dogs – imagine it like being guided how to perfect a swim stroke or a bowling arm or running technique or a million other things. A horse can horse, but some guidance can make it perform more efficiently. Right or wrong I don’t know, but that’s what trainers are doing. (Obviously not the ones that are mistreating animals).
The difference being the swimmer being coached wants to get better at swimming. They have put themselves in the position to get coached. They understand the bigger picture and what they are trying to achieve. If they decide they don't want coaching anymore or in fact want to give up swimming it is in their gift to make that choice.
It's all about submission. Coerced by reward or fear. I think most right thinking people look at dolphins at Seaworld and don't see it as right in 2024. I'm not sure it's too many steps to this.
That’s very true, but that same claim could be made against using dogs to round sheep or any other use of animals for human benefit.
Football and rugby has already started, before the opening ceremony ?
Not proper Olympic sports though ?
Where's my emojis?
Those big whips that C Duj was using a clearly designed to hurt, so why do they even exist??
they aren’t designed to hurt , they are designed to be used at a distance when exercising a horse using a lunge rope.
they aren’t designed to hurt
But they can be misused to hurt. The point Andy was making is that it would be possible to design out possible misuse.....if you wanted to.
Well yes, many things could be misused and hurt - I was simply trying to make it clear what my understanding of the primary purpose of a lunge whip is. Perhaps the term ‘whip’ makes the purpose a bit misunderstood?
Given that a very lay, yet I'd argue widely accepted definition of a whip would be 'something you whack someone with in order to cause pain', then yes, probably some confusion to be had. Pointless arguing these finer details though. It's undisputable what you're looking at in that video. It's highly unlikely to be an isolated incident, either by her, or in the wider dressage community. IOC should be suspending all horse events pending a review post games as to their future inclusion.
So away from the sport for a minute, opening ceremony? What are we hoping for? I'm probably about to get flamed for racism or something, so this is all tongue in cheek....but I hope they saw the triumph of Danny Boyle 2012 (casual stereotyping aplenty - yokels playing cricket, Brunel destroying the planet, teenagers glued to their mobiles, fever dreams about ghostly spectres of George Osborne defunding the NHS, etc.) and just went 'We want that - but the french version'
So we'll have ladies in powdered wigs throwing cake at street urchins, maybe a guillotining or two, a dance piece where men in pastel draped sweaters shrug repeatedly at a bloke in a hat who is / isn't small depending on your perspective. To a soundtrack of a reanimated Serge Gainsbourg singing filth to a girl half his age and 7 divisions above him in the punching league.
Meanwhile cyclists will endlessly circle the track with the one in French colours falling further behind each lap followed by an Intermarche strawberry throwing brightly coloured 'sweets' to the athletes.
Translation for the announcements, etc., will be provided by a waiter who knows exactly what you mean but will refuse to understand because the accent is about 0.2% off. And after the first couple of countries no further announcements will be made because he's just wandered off to talk to his waiter colleagues and refuses to catch your eye.
And it'll be in two halves, with the second bit starting who knows when, because we have to have a proper sit down lunch in between.
What have I missed?
Got to confess, I've not watched a single opening ceremony to a games or world cup etc apart from the highlights of 2012. I suspect I'll not break the habit today. Do sports fans actually watch them in sizable numbers or is it another type of audience?
It's gonna be Les Mis in lycra isn't it?
Do sports fans actually watch them in sizable numbers or is it another type of audience?
No idea. I have absolutely zero interest in them.
using dogs to round sheep or any other use of animals for human benefit.
I'm not sure the "entertainment" value of dressage passes the "human benefit" test.
Anyway, enough of that.
Wonder if the opening ceremony will go full-on "Moulin Rouge"?
Paris France?
What have I missed?
Synchronized tractors spraying slurry up the council offices?
A whip as long as that one is going to - well - whip through at the end with minimal effort. I’d argue it’s going to be fairly tricky to avoid it hurting.
Maybe we need to parade a few bare legged horse riders around a ring and try ‘gently’ whipping the backs of their legs as a research experiment…
Don't give the Strictly pros any more ideas.
A whip as long as that one is going to – well – whip through at the end with minimal effort. I’d argue it’s going to be fairly tricky to avoid it hurting.
Maybe we need to parade a few bare legged horse riders around a ring and try ‘gently’ whipping the backs of their legs as a research experiment
I know it's actually the start of the Olympics and we are meant to be moving on but.....I thought about this again. I'd say and lunge whip works because there is a threat of more. It's like a raised hand to a child. It's a 'gentle' reminder that there could be more if they don't do ask requested. And also like a raised hand to a child the threat only really works if the recipient has experienced the consequence at least once. Otherwise it's just weirdo tickling their arse with a long stick or a a parent waving a hand. With child protection a child changing behaviour to a raised hand is often an indicator they have experienced the consequences......
Not ruining the planet through climate change and biodiversity loss is always a good ball park!
Holding the majority of the events in the centre of a very large city is a good ball park, because most of the ball parks are already there. The opening ceremony and everything is being held on the Seine, the first time ever a river has been used, with all of the teams on boats. I think it’s going to be spectacular, the French are going to be trying to one-up us Brits for the opening ceremony.
I’d say a lunge whip works because there is a threat of more.
That’s precisely how it works; someone who also trains equestrian event horses, and who’s worked with the rider in question was being interviewed on local news the other evening, and she said the lunging whip is not supposed to do more than be a bit of a sting, an irritating sensation, so that the trainer needs to do no more than make a movement of the hand, or the end of the whip, for the horse to know what it needs to do.
Not unlike horses twitching to dislodge irritating flies.
This is the solicitor who’s bought the case on behalf of CDJs ex groom - wonder if the ex groom will be taking him to court soon for treating horses like circus animals…
doesn't appear to be repeatedly hitting the animals though does he? Nice bit of whataboutism.
I’m not defending CDJ - it was bang out of order and it will be how she normally trains. I’d not seen the video in my initial post and my initial defence was because she’s never been on the radar for this sort of thing. There are those who have a reputation for this and it doesn’t come as a surprise.
I’m pointing out there’s hypocrisy in this case - the timing is off, a groom suddenly gets a concience, the solictor happens to be Dutch, the solicitor is also involved in dressage and will get his horse to do similar moves and the Dutch happen to be one of the UKs biggest competitors in dressage.
Perhaps the governing body needs to look at themselves too - they set the tests that demand these kinds of ‘circus’ horse movements.
Isn't dressage based on cavalry/military formation movements? Movements mostly unnatural to a horse.
From wiki
Much about training systems used today reflects practices of classical dressage
They used to use chains attached to the horses legs to limit movement and whips to "encourage" the horse to behave a certain way.
At least they've stopped chaining their legs together.
There’s a lot that used to go off - horse welfare has come on massively since I rode in the 80s.
The yard my daughter works on has weekly visits from the vet as preventative health care, they have regular horse physio visits, use the best farriers, stables are spotless and they are exercised daily. Equine vets have facilities that would embarrasses some local hospitals.
There will always be the ****s, but the vast majority in the horse world really do treat their horses like kings.
There will always be the ****, but the vast majority in the horse world really do treat their horses like kings.
Much like horse sports, I'd also abolish the monarchy! (Smiley)
https://youtube.com/shorts/6S9Pz-zDQUo?si=pCORlzvgCoQ-vUlz
Both of these are more impressive than the real horses... And there's less shit to deal with.
“He’s also a dressage rider” So what’s that got to do with CDJ??
Uhhh, they’re both dressage riders? Which involves forcing a horse to parade/perform in a manner that’s completely unnatural to the way a horse normally moves. Just a thought.
use the best farriers
Now there’s an area where the welfare of those learning the trade needs to be addressed, because often they’re bullied in a way that would be totally unacceptable with a horse. My sister-in-law’s son committed suicide because of the bullying he suffered, and he’s not the first, it’s common knowledge it goes on. What CDJ did was wrong, but forcing mules, which just aren’t used to that behaviour is all kinds of wrong.
doesn’t appear to be repeatedly hitting the animals though does he? Nice bit of whataboutism.
I hate to have to point this out to you, but it’s a still photo, not a video - how can you tell what they’re doing?
Moving away from this unfortunate situation, back to the actual Games and the opening ceremony, it appears that among all the usual pop stars taking part, Gojira are performing as well, which should be interesting! For anyone wondering who they are, they’re a French metal band…
I hope this vandalism isn't a sign of what may happen at these Olympics and everyone stays safe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2gd9pqwlxo
^ yes, that occurred to me too - and with the opening ceremony being where it is (ie, along the Seine), it will be so much harder to have effective security compared to inside a stadium.
I hope this vandalism isn’t a sign of what may happen at these Olympics and everyone stays safe.
I do sometimes wonder why any country sets itself up to host the Olympics. It inevitably costs vast amounts of money and causes no end of disruption, highlights all sorts of dubious practices and ends with a bunch of mothballed facilities.
That said, I am looking forward to the MTB and track cycling. Might watch some of the opening ceremony tonight too.
I hope this vandalism isn’t a sign of what may happen at these Olympics and everyone stays safe.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2gd9pqwlxo
It seems to be developing into something more targeted and coordinated than just vandalism -
SNCF says it’s been a victim overnight of a "massive attack aimed at paralysing the network”.
Fires were started at three points on TGV lines running west, north and east of Paris.
A fourth arson attack on the line running south to Lyon and the Mediterranean was foiled.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cxe24vg59lzt
MuffinMan,
Agree with you about the timing, seemed a bit off.
For a bit of a conspiracy theory, I was wondering why CDJ apologised so quickly, didn't contest the suspension (surely there's a process to go through) is her olympic horse injured?
It seems to be developing into something more targeted and coordinated than just vandalism –
Hmmm. Let me take a look at a list of countries which have a recent history of conducting nefarious acts during the Olympic games and those that didn't get an invitation.
I think I've narrowed it down, lads.
The French really are getting the thick end of things recently.
Although the rugby 7 team looks good but then so did the NZ men's team
Opening ceremony on.... nothing of interest to report yet. Hoping for cyclist with beret, stripey jumper and onions.
It’s going to be VERY French!
Absolute crap so far.... no atmosphere, looks like amateur night. Is this how they're spending the millions it's costing them. Can only hope it improves as it goes on.
Hardstyle Can Can.
Dumb-kirk
ROCKKKKk!
Unfortunately it looks like three hours of the filler bits between songs at Eurovision.
Pretty underwhelmed and wondering mainly what the **** is going on lol!
It's tipping it down.
Martinhutch nailed it
Miming and can't dance. Hmm.
Unfortunately it looks like three hours of the filler bits between songs at Eurovision.
Just needs Graham Norton doing the commentary!
I don’t know if it’s been commented on already, but as a graphic designer I absolutely bloody LOVE the logo. It’s simple understated genius! I’d expect nothing less from the French. They’re pretty damn good at this kind of thing
