As I was watching the reporting on the announcement from the Olympics committee that from 2028 transgender women and those with differences in sexual development will be prevented from competing in the womens events it reminded me there had been quite a bit of previous STW discussion on the topic in the past.
I'm not surprised they've changed their 2021 policy, as that was foreseeably insufficient for providing fairness for female athletes. However, I am also surprised they've again gone for a relatively simple solution that does not reflect the complexity of the challenge. For example, women with differences in sexual development would be disproportionately affected by the current proposals.
It is going to be interesting to see if the current proposals stick, as there is clearly a big backlash against them? Also, if these changes to the Olympics are likely to influence changes filtered down to lower levels of sport that we're involved in?Â
Guardian article on Olympics transgender ban
The Conversation article on Olympics transgender ban
This is clearly an emotive topic that to be honest I'm inclined not to go into most of the time these days. There are forum member (and past forum members) with lived experiences that inform for more than mine.
My only contribution is that I believe it is possible to think about elite competitive sport and day to day integration and acceptance as very different entities. A possibly hard line on one (elite sport) should not automatically mean a regressive approach to the rest of life, including recreational sporting involvement. I feel I can simultaneously believe that this is probably a sensible decision and have grave concerns about the decisions the Guides have felt they had to make for example.Â
My only other thought is that I think they probably missed a trick by not renaming the men's categories the 'open' category at the same time, available to be entered by all people who do not meet the criteria of the women's category. I don't imagine it would make the blindest of difference to who would win the event, or even get to the Olympics but it would would have signified inclusion for all.Â
Can we PLEASE please please please all remember this is about real people and be respectful.Â
Not at you Twisty. At the folk who are about to weigh in.
As for me , i have no skin in the game and while i understand the issues from both sides i have not lived the issues of a female athlete or as a transgender person. I find it very hard to see how it can be any different without being extremely unfair to biological females. And one way or another they make the majority of the participants.
I think its very sad and i am sure extremely heartbreaking if you don't fit that definition. I don't think its fair i just don't see how any other solution is fairer (within a binary gender system).
None of these opinions are entrenched and i am happy to be educated.
A possibly hard line on one (elite sport) should not automatically mean a regressive approach to say to say life, including recreational sporting involvement.
Nope, but prejudices mean it will. This is one more weapon for those that want trans people excluded from everything... to deny them a life quite frankly. Doubly so for trans kids. Anyone that thinks this won't mean trans people will be excluded from recreational sports needs only look at what happened this month with the Girl Guides in the UK. Being a Guide isn't a physical competition, but trans girls are now excluded. And in the USA the crack down on trans kids and youths will be even harsher.
Back to the operation of the Olympics ban. In practice it will affect only a handful of trans athletes, if any. What I really fear is that some female athletes that will be forced to discover something about their chromosomes that they are currently ignorant of.
Great news for women, common sense prevails at last.Â
A real tricky issue but I feel the amount of people that would benefit from inclusion is miniscule compared to those that might lose out.
An outburst of common sense from the IOC that should be welcomed.
Anyone that thinks this won't mean trans people will be excluded from recreational sports needs only look at what happened this month with the Girl Guides in the UK.well I agree to the extent that people who want to use it as an excuse for division will probably misinterpret a vaguely related decision wrongly because it suits them to do so. I am pretty certain that The Girl Guides, have in the most favourable interpretation got their wires crossed and less favourably have been pressured by a political lobby within.
If I had a trans daughter in the guides I'd take that to the courts. There's various organisations who have taken the Supreme Court Case and mangled its interpretation. That said, I don't even know why Girl Guides are exclusively 'female'. My son went to a scout group with a trans kid - I was impressed with how both the kids and the leaders navigated that. But here's a question - how would the Guides routinely know the sex assigned at birth of all their members? ÂBeing a Guide isn't a physical competition, but trans girls are now excluded.
As someone who had frequently been beaten by women on bikes and on foot, I've never really understood why for recreational sport we have different "classes" defined by gender (or indeed age!). Elite sport is obviously different.ÂBack to the operation of the Olympics ban. In practice it will affect only a handful of trans athletes, if any.
I'm not across all sports but I can't say I've noticed a lot of (any) trans women dominating sport. Trans women are being excluded everywhere, the Women's Institute FFS, the FA, ECB etc. The ironic thing is that a lot of this hate and exclusion is being funded by someone who made a LOT of money writing about a boy who was excluded and shut away because he was different.
Sport is inherently unfair, the winners generally will have some advantage over everyone else. No one wanted to ban Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Simone Biles or Serena Williams.
I agree with the decision and I recall Coe saying some time ago that if the female class is not protected, a woman will never win a medal again.Â
An anecdote: Many years ago I ran in a very competitive road race in the midlands. I finished slightly ahead of the first female. I had no idea she was there and just assumed it was another male runner, as we were sprinting to the finish in a small group. I ran a PB but her time put her 4th on the UK all time list for the distance. I was training quite hard but in reality was only a middle of the pack club runner. She was totally committed and trained almost professionally. She was a better athlete than me but I just happened to be male.
It should go without saying that trans athletes (just like anybody else) should be treated equally and with respect.Â
edit:
Elite sport is obviously
Athletes only get to the elite level after years of training and racing in sub elite races.Â
My son went to a scout group with a trans kid - I was impressed with how both the kids and the leaders navigated that.Â
My niece is a scout. Ok, she is very much what you would have called a 'tom boy' a generation back but she loves it.Â
I'd suggest, given the issues with numbers and adult volunteers as well as how society has moved on, it is only internal politics amongst the adults that has prevented guides and scouts amalgamation.
There's a brilliant podcast by Reo Eveleth from a few years ago called Tested that convers the history of sex testing in sports: https://www.npr.org/2024/06/10/1253921751/introducing-tested-from-npr-and-cbc
I'd particularly recommend giving it a listen if you think that the IOC decision is good 'common sense'. It certainly removed any notion in my mind that that biological sex is a simple, testable binary as well as highlighting how demeaning the sex testing can be for all competitors in the womens category.
I think that in years to come the way that trans people have been treated will be a source of shame, in the same way that racism and homophbia are regarded now by right thinking people.
I'm not across all sports but I can't say I've noticed a lot of (any) trans women dominating sport.
Im not across the detail of the ruling but I think it includes DSD athletes as well. This would include Caster Semeyar who won 2 Olympic Golds and 4 World Championship golds. In 2016 the first 3 women in the 800m final were DSD.
I think that in years to come the way that trans people have been treated will be a source of shame, in the same way that racism and homophbia are regarded now by right thinking people.
I fear you may have the direction of travel wrong. Many of us have assumed that society only becomes more liberal over time, because we grew up in the second half of the last century when that was happening all over the world, but the evidence of history and of recent years is to the contrary. Homophobia and racism (and misogyny) is on the rise all over the world, especially in countries taking the hardest line on trans people.
On the ban itself, the ICO probably had little choice, and as regards the competition itself it is probably seen as necessary by nearly everyone looking to "protect" the games as their primary aim. But the impact will be far far wider in society. The trade off isn't worth it for me. The ban taken on its own isolated merits is fine. The price trans people will pay beyond the olympics is too high for me to welcome it.
When it comes the Olympic competitors, this will have little to no effect on the little to no trans athletes looking to take part. The mandatory testing will revel to some young women that their chromosomes are not what they thought they were. They'll be added to the already outed DSD athletes that will be made to sit on the sidelines of a sport they live for.
So... where next in society will mandatory sex verification take hold? Anyone thinking this stops at IOC events is misguided.Â
fear you may have the direction of travel wrong. Many of us have assumed that society only becomes more liberal over time, because we grew up in the second half of the last century when that was happening all over the world, but the evidence of history and of recent years is to the contrary. Homophobia and racism (and misogyny) is on the rise all over the world, especially in countries taking the hardest line on trans people.
I hope I havent as more bigots are not a great thing.
I'm not across all sports but I can't say I've noticed a lot of (any) trans women dominating sport.
Im not across the detail of the ruling but I think it includes DSD athletes as well. This would include Caster Semeyar who won 2 Olympic Golds and 4 World Championship golds. In 2016 the first 3 women in the 800m final were DSD.
According to this you are right: https://www.readtpa.com/p/the-iocs-new-policy-isnt-really-a
The argument in that peice is that this policy has little to no direct effect on trans athletes - there has been one single trans athelete out of nearly 30,000 women competing at the games since 2004. It will instead largely affect DSD athletes (many of whom will be unaware of their condition).
Framing this policy as a 'trans ban' is misleading and in my opinion sets a damaging precedent for sport as a whole.
I think that in years to come the way that trans people have been treated will be a source of shame, in the same way that racism and homophbia are regarded now by right thinking people.
I don't think you are wrong. But do you think this specific ruling would be treated like that? And if you do do you think of it was different we could end up looking back and thinking something very similar for biological females?
Sport is inherently unfair, the winners generally will have some advantage over everyone else. No one wanted to ban Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Simone Biles or Serena Williams.
Well yeah, 99.9% of folks wont make it to the Olympics because they aren't as genetically blessed as those that do. I also had a real issue with the way Ms Semenya was treated, she was born a girl, always identified as a girl. Sure she had genetic advantages, but she was born with them, no different than for example, Michael Phelps who I belive has ridiculously large feet..
But ultimately those advantages are 'natural'. Trans folks should be afforded the dignity and respect they deserve, but I agree with the IOC's decision here. And think it should apply to all elite sport
With regards to grass roots sports however, meh, noone really cares who wins. A biological woman may miss out on a 20 quid book voucher if she loses to a trans athlete, but if they are good enough they'll still be presented with opportunities to progress into elite sport.Â
Actually..ive just reread it..if this ban affects folks like semenya then I take my last comment back!
but if they are good enough they'll still be presented with opportunities to progress into elite sport.Â
If Biological males can compete against biological females at every stage. How will those opportunities manifest themselves?
I don't think you are wrong. But do you think this specific ruling would be treated like that? And if you do do you think of it was different we could end up looking back and thinking something very similar for biological females?
I don't know, but I know three people who have transitioned and about another. At least two of these have paid a high price for transitioning. At the end of the day I try not to have negative thoughts about people who are just trying to follow their feelings and don't deserve to be excluded by bigots.
I also had a real issue with the way Ms Semenya was treated
I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that this ruling has (in the real world, rather than the media's interpretation) far more to do with people like Ms Semenya than is has to do with trans athletes. Happy to be corrected but I think under this rule, she would not have been allowed to compete in the women's category. And the number of athletes that have competed and claimed medals with DSD if far more than the number of trans athletes (which is none at Olympic level).
Think about the testing... trans women know they are women, they won't take the test... women who know they have DSD won't take the test... everyone "failing" the test will be a DSD woman finding out in the most degrading way. Are they going to be named publicly? Will they just have to quietly retire and deal with the shock privately? Will every retiring female athlete have to deal with questions about their chromosomes?
The reality is if you want to compete at an Olympic level, then the majority of the time this is going to be based on a genic advantage.
If you want to run 2 categories, then you have to have a clear definition of what divides those categories.
The IOC ruling seems logical
Nobody is excluded from competition, its just a case that category 1 is open (aka "mens"), where category 2 relates to having XX chromosomes (aka "women")
You could always run one category to remove any form of definition (and the resulting arguments), but that would simply destroy female sports.
A biological woman may miss out on a 20 quid book voucher if she loses to a trans athlete, but if they are good enough they'll still be presented with opportunities to progress into elite sport.Â
Unfortunately this isnt the case.
There was a study between boys competing at College level in the US, vs Olympic women
There are various events where these boys would out-compete Olympic women, nevermind when they matured into adults.
The study is 10 years old, but I doubt the fundamentals have changed:
https://boysvswomen.com/#/
This is about 1% genuine concern and 99% transphobia.
Just to underline how poorly thought out it is, I have not seen anyone offer an actual definition of 'biological woman'. You'd think supreme court judges would understand the need for specific legal definitions.
This is about 1% genuine concern and 99% transphobia.
And wild statements like that help no one.
If Biological males can compete against biological females at every stage. How will those opportunities manifest themselves?
If I'm a sports coach on the look out for talented youngsters then it's not going to stop me spotting potential. Let's say I visit my local ten Mile tt. I see a biological girl, she's head and shoulders above all the other biological girls but is beaten by a trans girl. I'm still going to know she's bloody quick, regardless of whether she's on the top step of the podiumÂ
The trans girl winning hasn't hindered her progress up the sporting ladder. Yes she's not got to stand on the top spot of the podium at a local race, and that may bother her, but ultimately most people watching will be well aware of the contextÂ
My position is trans athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete at the detriment of biological females. I don't see how trans athletes in grassroot sports does that in any meaningful way(with the exception of contact sports)
That said..I'm not a biological girl competing in grass roots sport, so I'm sure they may have a different opinion!
There was a study between boys competing at College level in the US, vs Olympic women
There are various events where these boys would out-compete Olympic women, nevermind when they matured into adults.
The study is 10 years old, but I doubt the fundamentals have changed:
Well firstly college level isn't grassroots sports. And secondly, when it comes to picking the national side, who are they going to select, the trans woman (who can't go to the Olympics), or the biological female that can, even if they are slower?
If Biological males can compete against biological females at every stage. How will those opportunities manifest themselves?
If I'm a sports coach on the look out for talented youngsters then it's not going to stop me spotting potential. Let's say I visit my local ten Mile tt. I see a biological girl, she's head and shoulders above all the other biological girls but is beaten by a trans girl. I'm still going to know she's bloody quick, regardless of whether she's on the top step of the podiumÂ
How are you going to identify who is a biological female?
Women are not all petite with long blonde hair
Trans women are all not tall with short hair
How are you going to identify/define who is a biological female?
Umm..speak to people...
' hey that girl that won by 2 min, she's amazing. What's her story?'
'Yeah she's great, she use to be called john however '
Given the amount of rampant trans phobia that exists I don't think you'd need to conduct advanced dna testing for it to be revealed.
What is really concerning is that the tests that were done from 1958 to 1996 and were found to be ineffective in excluding people with an advantage from competition (or rather, they excluded those who may have had an advantage but also excluded a lot of people who didn't have an advantage) are now being re-introduced. It is literally taking a step backwards.
As with most of these issues, it comes down to men trying to police women's bodies and impose a degree of 'purity'. The majority of DSD/intersex status don't confer any athletic advantage. In fact, many women with a Y chromosome would probably have gone to their graves never knowing about it.
If this goes ahead it will be introduced at national level, then at regional, then at grassroots level. Young girls are going to find out in the worst way possible that not only are they not allowed to compete in sports (unless they want to go to the 'trans' category) but they also fail society's standards to be classed as a woman.
And, of course, for the parents to find out that their little girl is not a girl in the eyes of society will be traumatic. For some more than others.
Going by statistics, at least some people who are celebrating this decision are going to get a nasty surprise if their daughter decides she wants to play sports.
This is about 1% genuine concern and 99% transphobia.
Just to underline how poorly thought out it is, I have not seen anyone offer an actual definition of 'biological woman'. You'd think supreme court judges would understand the need for specific legal definitions.
According to the article stevious posted earlier it is more of an issue than I was previously aware of:
At the 2016 Rio Olympics, the entire women’s 800 meter podium consisted of athletes with DSDs: Semenya took gold, Francine Niyonsaba of Burundi won silver, and Margaret Wambui of Kenya earned bronze.
Not to mention sports like boxing where there is a very real risk of injury from somebody with a significant strength advantage within a weight class AND there has been a high profile (suspected) DSD case recently (Khelif).
there has been one single trans athelete out of nearly 30,000 women competing at the games since 2004
That stat is wrong, there were two at Paris alone!
one single trans athelete out of nearly 30,000 women competing at the games
That stat is wrong, there were two at Paris alone!
Who was that?
Semenya took gold
This is the bit that sits very uncomfortably with me. Born a girl, raised a girl, identified as a girl. Never undergone any gender reassignment treatment.Â
I don't care what the science says, in my opinion she's a girl and has every right to competeÂ
I concur with BruceWee, are we going to start introducing gender purity tests for female athletes? And if so at what level?
Imagine little katie, she's always loved her running. She was good at it at school, trained hard, committed her life to it. Then she reaches elite level and she's told 'sorry love, you aren't pure enough so you've been wasting your time'
Obviously we could spare her all that hassle and test her at birth. Sounds like something the Nazis would have done.
Not to mention sports like boxing where there is a very real risk of injury from somebody with a significant strength advantage within a weight class AND there has been a high profile (suspected) DSD case recently (Khelif).
Sure but this isn't a trans issue. Some women are much stronger than others.
Isn't Khelif the woman who turned out to have a Y chromosome?
' hey that girl that won by 2 min, she's amazing. What's her story?'
'Yeah she's great, she use to be called john however '
This just sums up the transphobia debate
I'm sure that a parent of a trans child, will be proud of their child's achievements, competing in an category which they identify as.
I'm also sure that this will be same for adult members of trans community.
It looks like a comprehensive evidence-based policy that excludes male advantage from women's sport without unnecessarily excluding people with XY DSDs such as CAIS.Â
And a podcast from Ross Tucker who contributed to much of the science.Â
I'm sure that a parent of a trans child, will be proud of their child's achievements, competing in an category which they identify as.
I'm also sure that this will be same for adult member of trans community.
I'm sure they would be
Whats that got to do with a sports coach identifying a trans athlete however?
You think there are many trans athletes competing with everyone else oblivious they are trans? If there are I'm pretty sure they'll be in the minority.Â
Sure but this isn't a trans issue. Some women are much stronger than others.
Rugby found it was when they looked in to it. ( from memory) A trans woman having gone thru male puberty was significantly stronger for the same weight and has stronger bones. Risk of injury to cis women was significantly increased when playing against a trans woman even at amateur level. Thus it becomes a safeguarding issue
Amateur non contact sports I see no real issue with trans women playing in a womans team
I'm another with no skin in this at all however but all the women I know are against trans women in elite sport
Women with DSD is a real issue - and one where a blanket rule seems unfair. I can see no way round this however. Some countries seem to actively recruit women with DSD for elite athlete training. But then I think of how unfair Semayers treatment seemed. The idea of using drugs to lower hormone levels is hideous.  I have no answer to this
I'm sure that a parent of a trans child, will be proud of their child's achievements, competing in an category which they identify as.
I'm also sure that this will be same for adult member of trans community.I'm sure they would be
Whats that got to do with a sports coach identifying a trans athlete however?
You think there are many trans athletes competing with everyone else oblivious they are trans? If there are I'm pretty sure they'll be in the minority.Â
You're making the assumption that its obvious to identify the sex of a person solely based on appearance?
I'm fairly confident that if I gave pictures of 1000 people you wouldnt be able to 100% correctly identify the sex of each person.
Then what happens to the person who has won that event by 2 mins who you have misidentified?
