[Closed] The Office is Dead

I’m not sure how that can work in practice, though. I work closely with the members of my team, depending on who you include there are about 10 of us. If I go in on Monday, and the other 9 head in on Tuesday, what’s the point? Likewise if I decide I only want to WFH, and the rest decide to head into the office, what then?

I think it will and will have to. My employer is talking about a "blended work environment" where we will get the option come to work X days a week or just be remote full time. My previous employer Expedia took the same stance (and the office is already back open - well outside of lockdowns) come in when you want / need to.

Collaborative work is just better face to face waiting for someone to mute / unmute on zoom is just painful and doesn't foster a natural communication. I totally get some are happy with it but sociable people struggle I know I do. I miss the pub after work when everyone gets to talk rubbish and moan about stuff its cathartic. My partner doesn't understand why im moaning about a dev who has built something wrong.

This guy gets it

In fairness Chris Head is in the business of selling remote working IT Solutions, and he's US based, the US tends to be the quickest to take on new ideas and practices.

I also, in part, sell remote working IT solutions, but admittedly to smaller businesses.

The picture with our clients is no where near 70%, a lot are talking about making WFH permanent post-Covid, but few are actually making firm plans, it's probably not helped by a Government who have until recently only really planned a few weeks ahead at a time.

The whole IT thing was initially the big issue and there are a lot of challenges in regards to cyber security and accessibility, but there are plenty of industry standard solutions and practices for that now.

WFH could be great for a lot of people, but beware it does offer considerable risks to employees, I'm sure we've all at some point watched a promo video of the latest new Super Jumbo aircraft and been told it's 40% bigger than the last one, 40% more fuel efficient and with 40% greater air quality, meaning airlines will give us all First Class like legroom and refinement, only to discover in actual fact all they do is cram in more seats and circulate less air. Technology advances in work are often like that, they're put in place to improve productivity, not to make employees lives easier.

There are some considerable risks ahead for any office worker, sometimes it's a slow process, in the UK (at least at the moment) employers can't really just impose new working conditions on us, but as staff leave and are replaced they can.

That 1hr a day you save not commuting, maybe they'll ask new staff to work it, or maybe they'll meet you half way, because "you'd only be sat in the car/train/bus anyway?"

All that money you save not commuting, well if an employer is offering WFH, they can offer a lower salary then yeah?

So you can leave your horribly expensive city centre flat and move to the Country, again, the employment market may also allow that to come with a lower salary, you certainly won't get a London weighting to live in rural Gloucestershire.

There's also a H&S issue, I'm sure plenty of people have realised that working 8 hours a day on a 14" laptop sat on the sofa or at the dinning room table isn't the best for your eye-sight or back. A WFH contact might come with the requirement to at least have enough space for a company supplied Chair and Desk.

That's just the things I've actually discussed with employers, issues I've read about on industry platforms include:

Increase off-shoring, It took about half a second after someone said "oh great, I can finally move to France and keep my Job in the UK" (Brexit notwithstanding) before another thought "France, what if staff lived in Eastern Europe, or Asia etc when the average salary is £4.50 a week". My Dell rep used to be based in Ireland, then it was a Guy in Singapore, now India.

The trouble with suburban offices is they are easier to get to it you live in said suburbs but frequently worse to get to if you don’t as transport links round a city are always harder to manage than into a city. Also you can bet these offices will be in the nice suburbs where the upper management live near but not where thoes in lower jobs live but instead of commuting into the city centre with good links they will be battling across town.

found this with my first graduate job.
I lived at my parents in an affluent home counties commuter town, office was in a separate affluent home counties commuter town.
Had I wanted to commute by public transport it would have been 1.5hrs+ each way, and as it involved going into london and back out, the ticket carried london pricing.

Nice surrey mansions or west London townhouses for the directors though.

We've been doing a fair bit of research into future office strategies both for ourselves and for others.
It's quite clear that creative businesses do suffer from a total wfh strategy as it really slows down design, and there's also a loss of team cohesion.
I was in a seminar earlier this week and someone said there's a balance between working from home and sleeping at work, which I thought was good.
New trends that are emerging include Working From Near Home which I explored last summer in a project, and also the wfh/wfo balance.
CBDs aren't dead, they're just sleeping at the moment.

Over the last couple of months when I have been speaking to our internal sales and admin staff on the phone, most of them are fed up working at home. They want to return to the office and interact with people. However, they would like the flexibility. I think that is where it will be for our company. Mixed between office and home. Many of the internal staff are fairly local to the office. All the external sales engineers like myself are based at home anyway. My girlfriend has been working from home since March last year and she wants a balance too. Would like to be back in the office 1-2 days a week, but at home the other times. But she needs a better working space.

Fortunately my GF is in the office.

She had the option of working from home, but she enjoys the 20 minute bike ride to work, seeing/discussing things with her colleagues and having that separation from work and home.
It also means we're not having to have the heating on full blast all day long.

I'm also glad she's not at home. If she were she would know how ****less I am for six hours of the day and then suddenly spring into action at around 5ish when it dawns on me that I've done sweet FA all day and need to hang the washing/do the dishes/shopping.

Which reminds me.... Another 18 minutes of procrastination and then I best get my arse in gear.

I'm a director of a company that employs 30 people in Manchester City Centre. It's a premium office space so higher business rates, IIRC £60k per annum. I answered a questionnaire a few months back specifically about WFH, the impact of downsizing offices or a business going permanently to all staff WFH. The questions centered around the impact and loss of business rates to local council and government funding.

The line of questing led me to believe that they're already thinking about the loss of business rates and how the money will be replaced. From the line of questioning, I came to the conclusion that there will be 3 directions this will go in. 1. A tax on the employee. 2 a tax on their home working environment. 3 the employer would be taxed per employee working from home.

The last thing we need is option 2, the leeches will start to mandate all sorts of taxes, fire regulations, health and safety, home working insurance cover etc. £2k will turn into £5k per annum a whole new industry will come in.

As I'm writing this, a at the top of a large building I can see pretty much all the office blocks. There are 40+ story buildings with only one or two floors with lights on, usually in the corners where the bosses sit. There's been no change in this since March last year, regardless of full lockdown or the eased versions. I come in regularly to check the place over and it genuinely takes my breath away as to how much it's changed in 12 months.

It gets worse, can you see Old Trafford full of 76k people again in the next two years. Ditto Cheltenham, Aintree, music festivals, concerts, nightclubs, busy Friday/Saturday night City Centre pubs where you stand around 3 deep at the bar. Not a chance. Permanent shop closing and less business rates - probably piling it onto office worker tax. Even less footfall / reasons to go into cities. The previous advantage of working in a city was it was on your door step at lunchtime or after work to shop, dine or go to events. None of this is happening so why go in at all. Provincial City Centre's will revert back to ghost towns post 6pm like they were in the 70s and 80s. The tower block cladding nightmare will put people off moving to the city this is likely to take 10 years to solve + there's nothing to do....

These decisions need political will power which is none existent from any party. Who is going to say it's over and it's back to normal. Not one because if there's a single death, the media will be all over them as callous bar-stewards playing to the baying twitterati.

can you see Old Trafford full of 76k people again in the next two years. Ditto Cheltenham, Aintree, music festivals, concerts, nightclubs, busy Friday/Saturday night City Centre pubs where you stand around 3 deep at the bar.

I can see all of them, except the last. Costa and Pret and a lot of 'Spoons and other pubs are all going to close.

Our company is downsizing the office space, from about 50 desks to 20, with the same headcount. The plan is everyone will work in the office 1-2 days a week. It seems a bit of a drop to me, but we'll size. All happens end of Feb.

New pay and conditions offer for HMRC includes an expectation that most staff will be able to work at least 1 day a week at home.

The move to regional centres has lost loads of experienced staff who were previously told WFH would not be an option. Our own move to the regional centre is about to start prepping and there's a definite impression that those wanting to WFH and go in once a week or once a fortnight rather than take redundancy may well get what they want

As my ‘office’ is a 2.5Ha expanse of bare concrete with 1000+ cars parked on it, WFH isn’t an option. Which, considering the weather over the last week, is a bit of a shame...🥶

It gets worse, can you see Old Trafford full of 76k people again in the next two years. Ditto Cheltenham, Aintree, music festivals, concerts, nightclubs, busy Friday/Saturday night City Centre pubs where you stand around 3 deep at the bar. Not a chance.

Eh? Absolutely I can - current evidence suggests there would be enough people willing to do that now if they were allowed let alone in a year or two (when hopefully we'll have Covid much more under control with just the odd annual flare up with a new strain).

As someone who has worked/stayed away from home for the last 20 years to be sat in an office in or around London, Working from home this last year has been a dream for me!! i do not miss the office or people one bit but i am starting to wish i could get out of the house a day or 2 of the week on site visits or something... but im not complaining. i shudder at the thought of going back to 'normal'

Costa and Pret and a lot of ‘Spoons and other pubs are all going to close.

Don't know anything about Spoons, but all our local coffee shops have queues outside them all day with people getting their fix and having it outside rather than inside. I walk to Pret every lunchtime for a baguette (mainly for the exercise / break from WFH), always people in there doing the same.

As someone who has worked/stayed away from home for the last 20 years to be sat in an office in or around London, Working from home this last year has been a dream for me!! i do not miss the office or people one bit but i am starting to wish i could get out of the house a day or 2 of the week on site visits or something… but im not complaining. i shudder at the thought of going back to ‘normal’

I think this is exactly why we need a flexible solution going forwards. Im pretty much totally the opposite. I live about a 40 min cycle from work, miss the office, miss the people in it, miss working as a team not online, I miss extended bike rides home with the people i work with for chat laps. Im that odd person who would be more than happy to go back to "normal" in the office 9-5 mon-fri. Just because a few people don't want it why shouldn't my needs / wants be catered for too. I know this isn't what your but people seem to talk about it as if it's one of the other when its not its both. If my company went 100% remote I would likely leave for a company that isn't.

Next to our office in Monument, there are (were) ten pubs or bars within a stone's throw.

I can't see all of them being open when we go back to "normal".

but all our local coffee shops have queues outside them all day with people getting their fix

The key thing being local....

How many Prets are there in London City centre? How's the footfall down Leadgate St or Cheapside just now?

@jimdubleyou

Next to our office in Monument, there are (were) ten pubs or bars within a stone’s throw

Bit o/t but had some very heavy nights in a few of those. Dodgy minicab home from Fuego was always a high point of the social season.

Back on thread I think a lot will come back as youngsters get a lot of their social life via work. I know kids at my wife’s place are gagging to get back in the office as working from home is solitary and a bit shit if you’re in a house share.

No they can’t, they can hire the best person they CAN get, not THE best person.

Right, so that means that companies will have to offer better terms to get the people. More competition for employees means better terms for employees....

... that is, the kind of employees who can work from home, who have desirable skills and qualifications. People who work in McDonalds or deliver Amazon parcels aren't going to see any of that benefit.

I think this is exactly why we need a flexible solution going forwards. Im pretty much totally the opposite. I live about a 40 min cycle from work, miss the office, miss the people in it, miss working as a team not online, I miss extended bike rides home with the people i work with for chat laps. Im that odd person who would be more than happy to go back to “normal” in the office 9-5 mon-fri. Just because a few people don’t want it why shouldn’t my needs / wants be catered for too. I know this isn’t what your but people seem to talk about it as if it’s one of the other when its not its both. If my company went 100% remote I would likely leave for a company that isn’t.

yeah the days of putting the kids to bed on Sunday night then driving 5hrs to a rented box room in a london subburb to then sit at desk for 45hrs have got to be in the past now. they are for me anyway (fingers crossed) id be happy to do it one week in the month maybe, could upgrade digs and make a bit of a jolly out of it... i often ride my bike twice a day now, weather permitting, and i ride with my mates rather than on me tod.

Next to our office in Monument, there are (were) ten pubs or bars within a stone’s throw.

I can’t see all of them being open when we go back to “normal”.

i do miss the Thursday dinner time pintage actually!! and certaily missed the christmas shenanigans! but its still an easy swap.

but its still an easy swap

If you’ve a decent home, established social circle and effectively given up on life 😉 yes. Younger workers different kettle of fish, and after a why senior management will be “well if they’re in why aren’t their bosses?..People wfh on Friday and Monday are just skiving”, etc. I’m not sure it’s all set in stone that offices are dead by a long way.

The international IT services company I work for has decided that the default will be working from home in future, apart from where customer security requirements require office working.

They are going through the required statutory consultations about this, but have started to implement break clauses in office leases to reduce office space. They plan to reconfigure the remaining office space as collaboration spaces rather than allocated desks.

My employer is relaxed about where I live in the UK now I do not need to be in the office and this view enabled me to secure a new role in the summer of 2020 on a project with a base location elsewhere in the UK. Previously the run off of my previous role might have lead to redundancy if there was a role at my base location.

I already had a dedicated home working space which I previously used for personal learning and projects and that is true for most of my immediate colleagues. But for colleagues with out suitable space at home it is not so easy.

I have observed in the past it is harder (but not insurmountable) to get less experienced team members up to speed when mentors are remote.

It suits me to have a more spread out working day, when I get stuck or waiting for a colleague I take a break from work. So my start and end time is fairly similar to my leave for work and arrive home time in my old life.

I also do not get wound up or distracted by those near by to me in the office.

So for me the office building is dead, and think the same is true for most of our competitors in the IT services market.

Posted in this thread earlier (I think)
But now my partner has had a month in her new job it appears her employer (medium sized advertising agency) is totally on board with remote working.
She is under no pressure to go to the s****y new (but smaller) office until she’s vaccinated and happy to travel, even then you still don’t have to and a diary system will show if you are going to be there. All the directors live outside of London and will not be coming in much either.
Presenteeism is a pointless way of working when it’s results that matter.

I do wonder about those big network agencies that have leased or bought huge expensive buildings in prime sites such as Bankside (TBWA) and omicron with Sea Containers House at Blackfriars, huge buildings that are now going to be half empty.

@MrSMITH And Publicis in what used to be TVC at Shepherds Bush...

The international IT services company I work for has decided that the default will be working from home in future

I could've written most of this post.

We were told by our CEO right at the start of all this that WFH would be the 'new normal' for those who wanted it after we get through the other side of this. I love it, for many of the same reasons you cite, but I was WFH beforehand anyway. The only real reason for me to go into an office on any sort of regular basis would be to socialise, and I'm a higher-functioning sociopath so Teams will do fine, thanks.

I've said this before, but I do rather wonder whether this is the beginning of the end for huge sprawling cities being power centres. You have head offices in London because that's just where you have offices. "We've always done it this way" but what's the point now? Who's still going to want to live in the commuter belt when they don't have to commute three hours each day any more? I reckon the leafier parts of this little island are going to start seeing some new money quite soon.

I'm reminded of the opening line to Shadowrun. "The world has changed. Some say, Awakened."

She is under no pressure to go to the s****y new (but smaller) office until she’s vaccinated and happy to travel, even then you still don’t have to

I keep seeing variations on this post, or the opposite, so it's probably worth mentioning again,

If you've worked somewhere for six months then this is a legal requirement. If you can WFH, and you want to do so, an employer must justify why they think you have to go into an office. There has to be a valid business reason, "because I say so" doesn't cut it.

People who work in McDonalds or deliver Amazon parcels aren’t going to see any of that benefit.

Maybe not directly wfh, but hopefully a shift away from offices & commuter belts will see property prices level out across the country, and hopefully easi g pressure on schooling, infrastructure etc

Tho this will all need a government who is aware that things have changed, not trying to turn back the clock

Despite my provocative thread title I know the office isn't dead, it'll just be smaller, cheaper, more flexible.

Work colleagues socialising is still key to a good team & wfh is not an option for many, so there will always be office spaces, but team building weeks away can help build camaraderie , still do the Xmas party etc

The companies that can adapt to this will do well.

Even schooling could well change - my kids primary class have zoom registration every morning then a well ordered set of activities, videos etc to do through the day, one of the kids is riding this out with family in India, so he gives the class a weather update and for him school starts at lunch time.
(as a parent of too many kids homeschooling is still hell)

I have colleagues who struggle to work from home - not enough space, privacy, poor wifi etc. There will need to be a mix to suit everyone

I have colleagues who struggle to work from home – not enough space, privacy, poor wifi etc. There will need to be a mix to suit everyone

Interesting point Cougar about the laws around WFH. I have turned down a job move for fear of being pressured into the office in short order...

I'd love an office job right now. Not for the money, nor the work, just to mix with people again. I've had it with lockdown and the same few faces and nowhere to get away.

suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”

Deffo - the benefits of human contact and a start / end time without the hassle of a major commute.

I’d love an office job right now. Not for the money, nor the work, just to mix with people again. I’ve had it with lockdown and the same few faces and nowhere to get away.

Im with you dude, im so over working from home. My setup isn't that bad, but I would much rather be in an office with people and talk about the stuff we are doing rather than sending endless slack and email messages.

suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”

these are such a non starter for me. who pays for them? The team im in is split across london it would require us all to live near the same co work space. Its not about chatting to anyone that isnt my GF its about talking to the people I work with building relationships, sharing ideas, solving problems together rather than isolation and so on.

I have colleagues who struggle to work from home – not enough space, privacy, poor wifi etc. There will need to be a mix to suit everyone

that’s because people have been caught out by this

Nu-huh, exactly. This is a Brave New World, it will take time to adjust. People don't have home offices because they've never needed them until now. I've just moved house and it was a primary requirement, before the move I was working on a 1m wide Ikea desk stuck in the corner of the living room trying to concentrate whilst my OH watched shit* daytime TV. My boss asked if I needed a second monitor, I was like "sure, I'll Sellotape it to the kitchen door".

For many people the infrastructure simply isn't there yet. This will change. New-build property developers who build 4-bedroomed properties in a floorplan smaller than the 2-bed I've just left are going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

I refer you back to my earlier London Money comment, how much Northern property is someone going to get from the sale of a modest London flat? The average house price in London is half a million. I sold my old 2-up 2-down for £60k. Granted that's an outlier of course, but you can get something half decent in say Keswick twice over if you've got £500k in your back pocket.

(* is there any other kind?)

If people can remote work from home, then they can also remote work from offices. So we might see many smaller offices around the city or around the country. This would allow people to have social interaction but also spread the load around a bit. It's bonkers that 10 million people are all trying to live in essentially the same place, really.

but what’s the point now? Who’s still going to want to live in the commuter belt when they don’t have to commute three hours each day any more?

People will still want to live near cities as it’s not just work that attracts people but all the other retail/cultural/sporting/travel infrastructure etc.
Big businesses will still want to be in transport hubs despite the need for less business travel.

Don’t get me wrong, I love and grew up in the countryside and need my fix but I couldn’t live there (yet) unless it was a 45min train ride away from London.
I wouldn’t be doing that journey every day (or week) either.

We both now have very flexible working so will end up with house an hour away from London and keep one of our flats. Can’t be the only ones doing the same now home working is more accepted.

People will still want to live near cities as it’s not just work that attracts people but all the other retail/cultural/sporting/travel infrastructure etc.

Well yeah but that could be smaller cities or even towns. I'd like to live in a small town but the reason I don't is that there would never have been a job for me. But if I WFH I easily can.

Well yeah but that could be smaller cities or even towns. I’d like to live in a small town but the reason I don’t is that there would never have been a job for me. But if I WFH I easily can.

What about about if you actually don't want it to be a smaller town? I feel like this a concept some people just can't grasp. Some people myself included actually like living in a big city and want to go "back to how it was" as hard that is for some to believe. I grew up in London the idea of living in a small town where I have to drive to the supermarket, don't have every type of restaurant at my doorstep or the end of an app and can't rely on a tube or bus to get me somewhere is madness.

but what’s the point now? Who’s still going to want to live in the commuter belt when they don’t have to commute three hours each day any more?

People will still want to live near cities as it’s not just work that attracts people but all the other retail/cultural/sporting/travel infrastructure etc.
Big businesses will still want to be in transport hubs despite the need for less business travel.

Absolutely, nothing is ever as all-or-nothing as, well the Internet makes it seem. London won't suddenly become a ghost town, nor will the Yorkshire Dales suddenly had a population of 8m.

suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”

No doubt.

It's an interesting thought, if I had more space, or the money for one of those Garden offices (I could split 50/50 with a bike store workshop obvs) I'd want to share with my Wife, she's NHS but her office has been turned into a ward and there's no sign of it coming back, she's community based and home is her office.

There's no reason why we can't share an office (okay, the NHS has some rules on people being able to see over your shoulder when accessing patient files, but not unworkable).

A few of my Mates are also WFH at the moment, and plan to going forward. I doubt there's much stopping you sharing an office with your friends either. Mine all do wildly different jobs to me, but we all spend hours a day pushing a mouse around, so why not?

Granted that’s an outlier of course, but you can get something half decent in say Keswick twice over if you’ve got £500k in your back pocket.

Assuming adequate internet connection the number of outdoor enthusiasts within the IT/banking/whatever industries* able to drop many hundreds of thousands on property in desirable places like Keswick are going to drastically outstrip the supply.
If you are thinking "ooh I can move somewhere with great mtb, walking etc from the door" I assure you there is someone else thinking the same who makes 10 times what you do who is about to price you out.

*probably a tiny percentage of the total, but still huge numbers when applied to the smallish towns in question.

We are vastly more productive in full WFH.

Was talking to a PA the other day, she said that one of the main things WFH / lockdown meant was no need to book travel any more. No longer was it a case of shuffling meetings around, working out how long to leave at the station in case of delays, how long to walk to the meeting point, blocking out diary for travel, booking tickets etc.

Her boss could attend 4 meetings in one day without even leaving his kitchen compared to one meeting per day with a load of wasted travel time in between. Or (as happened occasionally), a meeting being missed altogether due to public transport cancellations. Meetings are far better attended now that everyone can dial in rather than getting trains from all over to one meeting point.

Some people myself included actually like living in a big city

Of course, but once all the people who don't want to be there have moved out, the city will be better for all the people who do want to live there. Afforable houses, less traffic etc.

living in a small town where I have to drive to the supermarket

Mate you walk to the supermarket in small towns, cos they're small!

Some people myself included actually like living in a big city

Sure, and that's a perfectly cromulent reason to do so. My point was rather that many people no longer have to.

I grew up in London the idea of living in a small town where I have to drive to the supermarket, don’t have every type of restaurant at my doorstep or the end of an app and can’t rely on a tube or bus to get me somewhere is madness.

And conversely, this is the concept you're not grasping.

I live in a small town (population's about 10k I think?). Next door but three is a chip shop. Inside of two minutes' walk there's both a large and a small-but-overpriced convenience store, a couple of Chinese takeaway places and a large Chinese restaurant, another chippy, a baker, a butcher, an 'artisan' cupcake shop, a traditional sweet shop, like three hardware stores (one of which is a proper old-school ironmongery / Arkwright's shop place), a greengrocer, a couple of Indian takeaways, a highway-kebabbery type chicken / pizza / mystery meat place, a proper authentic Italian style rustic pizzeria which is _amazing_... Tesco, it's a toss-up as to whether it's quicker to drive or walk, it's five minutes' on shank's pony but you probably don't want to lug a week's shop back up the hill.

[EDIT: oh yeah, and a metric shitload of pubs, when they ever reopen. The nearest is 100 yards away.]

Having to rely on the Tube or bus to get you somewhere is madness. I'm already here. (-: