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What about "Working From Not Office" WFNO could be the new solution. You are not expected to commute into the office every day unless you wanted to. Instead you could provide yourself with somewhere suitable to work.
This could be the back bedroom converted to an office. This could be the summer house overlooking the swan lake. This could be the local Costa. As long as you can deliver your work, does it matter?
The reality will vary from person to person and from time to time. You might be home based during term time and then 'Costa' during holidays. Decide what woks for you.
Just a thought
If someones not working already to do the child care, then whats the issue for the newly found WFH member? The child carer can keep them in check.
I know you’re trolling (poorly I might add), but this genuinely made me laugh. I’ll send you my toddler and you can report back on ‘keeping her in check’
Also, unless you live in a house with several wings your argument still holds no water. Small children can move quickly and make loud noises. In my house they are also, shock! Horror! allowed free movement. So even when I was wfh home they would still come and see me because they aren’t prisoners!
What about “Working From Not Office” WFNO could be the new solution
Not quoting your entire post, but most of it sounds a bit odd. I’d still rather work from the office. It has a desk, chair, correct lighting, is connected to the warehouse etc. All the things that make it work as a workplace. Sat on a boat, throwing bread at swans or something, just isn’t the same.
[i]It has a desk, chair, correct lighting, is connected to the warehouse etc. All the things that make it work as a workplace.[/i]
What I was thinking was basically lots of small local versions of the office with what you suggest that you could rent cheaply for the day/morning/afternoon. Think of all of the B&B places that have seats, screens and wifi for their guests in the evening but no-one using them in the day. Cheap quiet office and cheap extra revenue
I’ve saved 3+ hours a day and £800 a month in commuting and being in the office costs, but I’m looking forward to getting back to a couple of days a week back in the office. Mrs OTS has asked to go back 3 days a week in response to a recent request from her work. The big game changer for this will be the kids being back at school. My 2 are 13 and 16 and have been pretty good locked down. I have questioned my enthusiasm for their musical instrument choices at times (drums, electric guitar, trumpet and flute) more recently, but on the whole it’s been fine. Contrasted with colleagues I see on calls day after day sat on the sofa or at the kitchen table, I realise how lucky I am.
A couple of days back in the buzz of Glasgow with colleagues is going to be good.
I think we are getting to the stage in this pandemic where after the initial pleasant surprise of how different things can be has worn off, people are starting to see the downsides. I don’t think there is going to be a significant change in the way most people live.
This could be the back bedroom converted to an office. This could be the summer house overlooking the swan lake. This could be the local Costa. As long as you can deliver your work, does it matter?
Pretty much where I'm coming from also. What's the cost of a couple of coffees versus petrol for a two hours round trip and parking?
Of course it's not for everyone, and FMP is clearly in a position where none of this is going to work. But assuming one has a a "home office" room then CoV19 aside the child / dog argument is moot because you wouldn't be providing care if you were in an office 20 miles away.
One all this has gone away I can see public 'office space' hot desks becoming more commonplace.
working from home is jolly boring.
Ah that’s why
One all this has gone away I can see public ‘office space’ hot desks becoming more commonplace.
You may be working with people who you don’t work with or the people you do like working with.
So you still have some social interaction and aren’t stuck in the same four walls all the time.
Any way according to the daily fail today.
Back to work now it’s time to get tough
Giants who have let fear keep UK plc locked down
Personally I can see Costa Coffice being a thing.
The reality it’s it’s proved that a lot of people can work well on a much more flexible leash than being penned in an office.
Surely the way forward is to offer people the option? Folks who want to work from home can do so, people who want to attend the office can do so as well. Serves the double purpose of reducing the proximity of people in a confined space.
Surely the way forward is to offer people the option?
Exactly. It has been proved over the last 4 months than many of us can work successfully at home (better in fact than being in office) A lot of people like it for all the reasons in this thread. A lot of people hate it for all the reasons in this thread.
From polling in various companies it appears a high % are in the like WFH category. Where I work (very big company) only 20% would want to go back to full work in office
What needs to change is the lack of trust and ignorance from companies that working at home is just skiving and everybody needs to be in the office. It was difficult to get a WFH agreement and that needs to change. If just 25% of those employees who can work from home get the choice to do so the reduction in rush hour nonsense, pollution etc,. would be very visible.
I'm currently looking at decamping to Spain for the whole of October as part of my WFH, especially now Mrs S is retired. Obviously it depends on travel restrictions but I reckon I could line up a pretty cheap 1 month rental for a change of scenery and weather.
Yes that is a very good point. Our peripatetic part-working lifestyle has taken us to Hamburg and Boulder in the last couple of years, for about 6 weeks each time. We were visiting other labs and collaborating to some extent, but could just as easily have set ourselves up in an airbnb for the duration. Of course Brexit will reduce the options, and the Boulder trip required a little bit of wheel-greasing to get round visa restrictions. But Barbados sounds like a good shout right now.
Just me and the dog WFH here and it's absolute bliss.
Tunes on in the background, coffee on tap. Throwing a ball in the garden every hour for 5 mins away from the screen. No commute on roads clogged with absolute arseholes and more importantly I can turn off and be straight into something I want to do.
So I'd appreciate it if you people with kids making it difficult could just suck it up and tell the boss how well it's working so that I can continue this new normal.
Cheers
I’m currently looking at decamping to Spain for the whole of October as part of my WFH, especially now Mrs S is retired. Obviously it depends on travel restrictions but I reckon I could line up a pretty cheap 1 month rental for a change of scenery and weather.
Was a thing in the paper about the tax implications of this and some companies banning WFH abroad....
Again, this is already the case. Legally if an employee wishes to work from home then the employer has to be able to justify refusing that request. Of course, there are many many reasons why an employee cannot WFH, but “because we say so” is insufficient.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that the WFH benefit would be the norm rather than the exception. As in, you don't have to 'request' to work from home and your employer accepts it, you just do work from home as default and thats the expectation.
Whilst I've worked with many people who did 3 days at home, 2 in, or every friday at home, etc - these were all negotiated in their contracts and weren't the norm in the office.
I fully expect the new norm to be these kind of arrangement by default. The exception would be the person who works in the office 5 days a week. In fact, you might have to get sign off to work 5 days in the office if they need desk space and to ensure social distancing!
Yeah. Our place said fairly early on in all this that their intention was to make this a permanent change for those who wanted it, so for us at least it is indeed the 'new normal.' Cynically I rather suspect that the driver behind it is "think how much money we can save!" (-:
We are happily working from home. When we night our house we made sure it had an office each even though neither of us had wfh before. I’m convinced Boris’s desire to have us back at the office it’s because too many donors face having lots of unoccupied office space and banks wanting their money repaying
Thanks for the link footflaps, I should be OK. I'm home based anyway and it will only be for 4-5 weeks but I need to get approval from management/HR. Staying with friends who have a self contained underbuild so it will be very discrete.
. I’m convinced Boris’s desire to have us back at the office it’s because too many donors face having lots of unoccupied office space and banks wanting their money repaying
And the season tickets,overpriced coffee and cakes, popping in the shops to get a late present or that car in the window that catches your eye 🙂
Lots of economic activity goes with that going to work lark.
WFH won't have an effect on social distancing in the long term when you go back to the office. Businesses (backers and owners) will reduce area occupied bringing office space down (and cheaper) until it's cheek by jowel. The Costa office module would be just as bad but no travel. You'll end up with office pods like those Japanese pod hotels. With thousands of drones trooping into their windowless pod to plug in. An open plan office with Steve the Slurper, flirty Gerty and Adolf in the corner will seem heavenly.
5 days a week is dead .
But in an engineering colab world where hands need to be on things and workshop frequently calls on us to look at things to provide opinions /options /solutions/calculations on tangible things in a workshop. Being available nearby is invaluable.
Working from home while office was shut has been difficult. I've tried to schedule my required workshop time to cover it all in 1 day ... I'd be happy 3 days at home 2 in office or similar but working from home full time isn't going to work.
Similarly in a war room situation on time critical (frequently million dollar a day penalties) then sitting round the table has always proven it's self to be more productive for us (maybe not in studies of some youths in a start up ) but for us where our experiance is largely in the older generation . Getting round the table is also invaluable.
5 days a week is dead .
But in an engineering colab world where hands need to be on things and workshop frequently calls on us to look at things to provide opinions /options /solutions/calculations on tangible things in a workshop. Being available nearby is invaluable.
Working from home while office was shut has been difficult. I’ve tried to schedule my required workshop time to cover it all in 1 day … I’d be happy 3 days at home 2 in office or similar but working from home full time isn’t going to work.
Similarly in a war room situation on time critical (frequently million dollar a day penalties) then sitting round the table has always proven it’s self to be more productive for us (maybe not in studies of some youths in a start up ) but for us where our experiance is largely in the older generation . Getting round the table is also invaluable.
Couldn't have said it better. I'm in a similar position where my work is technical(research) and machine access is required.
It's working really well for me. And, more importantly, more people working from home is much better for the environment.
I know some people will find it hard and I suppose if they can really justify it they could work from an office. Maybe the law should switch so instead of an employer justifying why they don't want you to work from home the employee has to justify why they can't.
Fortunately I'm in Scotland where the advice is still to work from home, and will remain so until the end of Phase 4 of the lockdown easing (i.e., when there's a vaccine).
Teaching WFH just doesn't work and I'm not sure it ever will without creating an Orwellian underclass.
In a my previous job our computers had "normal" harddrive and confidential ones which were removed and locked away overnight. Even though it was an office environment there is no way
Got told yesterday could looking at a 2021 return, not surprised, but not happy. I understand why and would probably make the same call myself but am aware if companies make the move to more WFH there will be a duty to ensure the employee has the same level of setup as in the office, adjustable chair, appropriate work surface, separate monitor, keyboard, mouse etc., gonna get costly and not everyone has the space.
Work has said they wont pay for furniture etc., ironically it's those coming back from furlough asking rather than people who have worked all the way through.
5 days a week is dead .
But in an engineering colab world where hands need to be on things and workshop frequently calls on us to look at things to provide opinions /options /solutions/calculations on tangible things in a workshop. Being available nearby is invaluable.
Working from home while office was shut has been difficult. I’ve tried to schedule my required workshop time to cover it all in 1 day … I’d be happy 3 days at home 2 in office or similar but working from home full time isn’t going to work.
Similarly in a war room situation on time critical (frequently million dollar a day penalties) then sitting round the table has always proven it’s self to be more productive for us (maybe not in studies of some youths in a start up ) but for us where our experiance is largely in the older generation . Getting round the table is also invaluable.
+1. This is 100% my current situation.
When all this blows over i don't want to go back to the office 5 days per week - i'll be looking for a 2 days at home 3 days at the office split.
In a my previous job our computers had “normal” harddrive and confidential ones which were removed and locked away overnight. Even though it was an office environment there is no way
That's an absolutely idiotic way of securing data.
I’m convinced Boris’s desire to have us back at the office it’s because too many donors face having lots of unoccupied office space and banks wanting their money repaying
There's large swathes of the economy based on people being in offices.
Bars and restaurants in business districts are all on the brink.
Same for cafes, sandwich shops and coffee houses.
Then you have travel, railways, car parks, buses, all now have a huge drop in income.
Office space and the associated industries, cleaners, caters, security, etc. all hit.
Clothing retailers as well, I spent 15 years in a suit and tie, and whilst the tie has now been dropped, I'd wear "work clothes" if I was in the office and I'd need to replace those from time to time. But now I wear a pair of shorts and a t-shirt all day, and as no-one sees me, they won't get replaced anytime soon!
Retail in general as well, if you're not in Town you won't make the impromptu purchase from the shop you walk past.
All of these things existing then attract people to the Cities at the weekends, without them people won't come at the weekend either.
If WFH home continues it will change the whole make-up of city centres and in large parts, not in a good way. That's why Boris et al want us back in the office, there's a whole economy to support.
That’s an absolutely idiotic way of securing data.
Very standard if your work on Classified work. All hard drives are locked in MOD approved safe over night and a 100% clean desk policy, all documents, paper, notes etc also in the safe. One safe per employee with only them knowing the combination. Restricted access to the office, all staff (inc cleaners) vetted by HMG. All bin contents secured and destroyed. For super secret stuff eg Eyes A etc you have totally isolated LANs, very restricted access, faraday cages on the walls / windows, no USB drives allowed, no internet access etc etc.
When they decommissioned the place I worked in years back we had a dozen MOD safes where no one knew the combinations nor what was in them. We had a security vetted safe cracker come in and drill all the safes out whilst being watched so everything could be whisked away and destroyed....
If WFH home continues it will change the whole make-up of city centres and in large parts, not in a good way.
What will happen that's bad, in your view?
That’s an absolutely idiotic way of securing data.
Very standard if your work on Classified work. All hard drives are locked in MOD approved safe over night and a 100% clean desk policy, all documents, paper, notes etc also in the safe.
Standard or no, I stand by my initial assessment. That sort of data should have been properly encrypted and arguably never have been on local storage in the first place.
We had a security vetted safe cracker come in and drill all the safes out
If it was secure storage this would not have been possible.
For occasional access to classified docs that's perfectly sensible vs what it takes to secure a network to the level required to store anything above Official.
Even if it does make Cougar's head explode.
Yep the secret squirrel stuff was on separate network in what was effectively a vault.
What will happen that’s bad, in your view?
I was wondering this, although some existing industries will see a decline in that space due to footfall it doesn’t mean that money can’t be spent elsewhere. A decentralised high street where money is spent locally reinvigorating community economies. With an increase in localised demand it will also drive increased local social/leisure facilities.
Also, declining office space usage in city centres seems like an excellent redevelopment opportunity, convert that space into a low traffic residential area and reduce the demand for building on productive agricultural land.
Things don’t have to stay the same for them to work.
Anyway, I’m in the Office won’t die camp, just change and reduce.
If WFH home continues it will change the whole make-up of city centres and in large parts, not in a good way.
Lots of discussion of this on the coronanomics thread so won’t repeat here. In summary though yes, city centres are screwed. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable. In the long run I think good, but it’ll come with huge amounts of pain in the short-medium term.
What will happen that’s bad, in your view?
I guess I like cities, I like people around them and the buzz they have. I like how a busy city can sustains retailers and hospitality options that a small town can't. I like that a city has real people living and working in it and not just tourists. I like how it's a central hub to meet people.
I love the little town I live in, but it's got nothing on the nearest city.
In summary though yes, city centres are screwed. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable. In the long run I think good, but it’ll come with huge amounts of pain in the short-medium term.
Depends on the city, the demographic and the split between business and residential.
You see this to a certain extent in tourist hotspots like Ambleside / Windermere where residents need to drive off to out of town places to do basic shopping because the centre is a mass of outdoors shops and cafes / restaurants / bars.
You get similar in some city centres (again, depends a bit on what the residency figures are like, how much the city has apartment style central living vs people travelling in) and while the centre is great for nightlife and cafes, it's rubbish for basic food shopping and day-to-day essentials.
Places like Canary Wharf are probably screwed for a fair while - the only realistic way there is via public transport (there's extremely limited parking there) and the entire shopping experience of the place is aimed at business types, people on lunchbreaks and then evening drinks.
The transition from a work place economy with a non-resident population to a residential economy is a long term and extremely expensive one which will require lots of planning. A task which is almost certainly beyond the existing resources and budgets of city authorities. The gap will be filled with economic collapse and rapid urban decay.
Offices can just repurpose, my old office on the strand was converted into luxury flats about 5 years ago. I suspect the changes were already in place. Sadly the knock on effects are that say 200 staff are replaced by 10 homeowners, so the local cafes, shops and bars will miss the employee type trade.
Problem with London is the above flats were massively expensive, so likely overseas investors not resident full time.
Canary wharf could repurpose into anything, I m pretty sure each floor is open plan. In fact all new London offices are the open footprint style so can be changed into anything, subject to planning.
declining office space usage in city centres
I'm not so sure that office space will remain empty. Several companies I have worked for say they are based in Edinburgh but in reality aren't. Their offices are out of the centre, or even actually in another town, where transport links are very poor. The reason they are out of town is that they need a lot of desk spaces. Reducing that need would mean they could move into town to smaller, better located premises. Offices will still be needed for collaboration but having a 'in office' day focused on and compartmentalising planning or other similar tasks would be far more productive than being dragged away from actual work to go to such meetings.
Offices can just repurpose, my old office on the strand was converted into luxury flats about 5 years ago. I suspect the changes were already in place. Sadly the knock on effects are that say 200 staff are replaced by 10 homeowners, so the local cafes, shops and bars will miss the employee type trade.
You can indeed change offices into residential, but the reason most people live in the city as their work and play is there. If no-one is working in the city and the bars are closed as you have no passing trade, then you have no need to live in a city.
Cities need people living and working in them, you'll struggle to have one without the other. And that's why Johnson wants/needs people back at work and in the office.
dazh - your two posts above beat me to it.
Interesting that Jez Staley seems to have changed his tune; few weeks ago he was questioning the future of the office but now is saying he wants his staff to return.
Has someone had a word in his ear?
poolman - infrastructure at Canary Wharf was not developed for resi; your comment
Sadly the knock on effects are that say 200 staff are replaced by 10 homeowners, so the local cafes, shops and bars will miss the employee type trade
in part explains why; if leisure/retail don't have the footfall they were designed for they'll close which will suck life out of the area.
I spent some time working there and it's buzzing through day and early evening; have also been there on a weekend when it's dead and that's how it would be if converted to resi.
It definitely couldn't '...re-purpose into anything' in a viable, economically meaningful way.
Would you prefer to live in purpose built resi or a converted office?
Cities need people, people don't need cities. They made sense pre-internet, they make a lot less sense these days.Cities need people living and working in them