[Closed] The North Face have really lost the plot...

Harder wearing fabrics in areas such as shoulders and waist where a heavy backpack can rub
Harness compatability
Breathability/venting
Hoods & cuff
Lightweight materials if weight is relevant.

But you get those on £3-400 jackets. These are what I am talking about btw - so the difference IN USE between say £350 and £600 is what I'm not sure about. So say you and I half way up a gulley in 50mph winds and it's -20, what's the difference?

In jackets, not a lot I reckon.

And anyway I reckon UK conditions are harder for a jacket to cope with than Alpine ones. Although the consequences are less severe.

Hah.. Most expensive item under men's clothing on Cotswold Outdoor is a Fjallraven Parker for £1500!

Justify that! It's not even waterproof.

Most expensive waterproofs seem to be £750

I have a TNF Summit Series jacket from 2002. Used it fairly regularly in that time. Still works amazingly well and has been fantastic value at £/year. It’s proven it’s worth the money and has kept me warm and dry from Wales to Norway down to -35.

I also have a triclimate TNF snowboarding jacket I picked up about [s]7[/s] 8 or 9 years ago in a sale. That too has been fantastic - although I’m not sure it would be amazing if i actually used it for its declared purpose, it is very, very warm but probably too bulky.

. So say you and I half way up a gulley in 50mph winds and it's -20, what's the difference?

You may well be right and if both jackets were brand new then the difference might be negligible ... but what about after 5 years of heavy use? I want a jacket that costs twice as much to last twice as long ... otherwise I will be looking elsewhere!

Hah.. Most expensive item under men's clothing on Cotswold Outdoor is a Fjallraven Parker for £1500!

Justify that! It's not even waterproof.

Most expensive waterproofs seem to be £750

I can't justify it ... and I wouldn't pay it as I don't see it as value for money. However for some folks that isn't the reason the buy stuff!

Out of interest, I can't think of many of the Pro or Semi Pro Winter Sports people that I know who use the 'ultra' top end gear - whether it's skis or boards or clothing - with the possible exception of those who get everything for free/are paid to use it or wear it.

molgrips - Member

Hah.. Most expensive item under men's clothing on Cotswold Outdoor is a Fjallraven Parker for £1500!

Justify that! It's not even waterproof.

You know this is the same as some non-biker going into a bike shop looking at the £5K bike and saying, 'you could buy a car for that', right?

Not really. I'm not a non-climber. I've climbed a few mountains and been out in a variety of cold conditions. And I'm wearing £350 jackets which I would say are the equivalent of a £3k bike. So we are discussing 'needing' a £7k bike over a £3k one...

Although I was just thinking - insulation is cheap, but down is not, and I can see benefits to down, so in terms of insulation then yes, money does buy you good down. But I still think that £1500 is way too much.

Justify that! It's not even waterproof.

It wasn't designed to be waterproof. Like a fat bike wasn't designed for time trialing :D.

It wasn't designed to be waterproof.

Of course not. But point is that the most expensive jacket doesn't have every possible feature, so you can't use that to justify the cost.

And anyway I reckon UK conditions are harder for a jacket to cope with than Alpine ones. Although the consequences are less severe.

Not 'harder' just different. We tend towards humid but cold conditions with added wind, but generally on smaller hills which you can bail from more easily. We also have a hardcore outdoor culture where people are prepared to go out in quite bad conditions. It's why the Swiss army has been known to train in Scotland in winter.

High mountain conditions tend to be significantly and consistently colder, but drier. When things go bad, they do really, really bad. And while these days you can often be choppered out fast in the Alps, distances are greater and - in bad conditions - it's harder to chip out. If you're in the Andes, Himalaya or similar, the chances of outside rescue are low.

It's the reason some Brits still use Bulffalo-type pile-Pertex and Paramo which other nationalities just laugh at - dealing with damp cold is more difficult than dry cold. It's also the reason that my lightweight expedition bag which feels cosy at -25?C in the Andes, works significantly less well at -10?C in Scotland. Damp air transmits heat faster, so insulation, which is really trapped, warmed air, is less efficient.

That Fjällräven parka? Niche, generally expensive Scandinavian brand with limited technical credentials. Really high loft down is rare and expensive - just ask PHD who use 1000+ fill power in their K-Series kit - put lots of it in a polar-friendly jacket also made from expensive fabrics and add a fashionista premium and you end up with a super expensive jacket.

Going back to where this started, the North Face L6 Belay Parka costs £440 and is - I've tried one - like wearing an expedition sleeping bag. It is ridiculously warm, stupidly heavy for a down jacket, and actually well designed for what's it's designed for. In most UK conditions it would be a ridiculous slice of overkill pie, but it's very good at what it's designed for, which is sitting about belaying climbers in extremely cold environments.

I'm not sure what the point of all this is. It's like everything in our consumerist world. Some expensive things are very good. Some expensive things are very good but not that much better than slightly less expensive things. Some expensive things work well only in certain conditions. Some expensive things exist mostly to be expensive.

The sadness of it all is that the outdoors industry and the media seem hell-bent on convincing us all that you need really expensive kit just to go for a common or garden hill walk. And the Duke of Edinburgh scheme seems determined to show young people that the outdoors is some sort of SAS-style endurance ordeal carrying huge packs.

It's like the mentality that tells you it's essential to have a 6"-travel full susser to go for a ride in the Peak District when all kit and gear and clothing is, is a facilitator that makes it easier and safer to get out and do things. And getting out and doing stuff is what it's actually all about.

And the Duke of Edinburgh scheme seems determined to show young people that the outdoors is some sort of SAS-style endurance ordeal carrying huge packs.

Not much to add to everything else, but I couldn't believe the size of the pack my nephew was expected to carry. He could barely stand up!

dealing with damp cold is more difficult than dry cold

That's what I said.

And the Duke of Edinburgh scheme seems determined to show young people that the outdoors is some sort of SAS-style endurance ordeal carrying huge packs.

Not much to add to everything else, but I couldn't believe the size of the pack my nephew was expected to carry. He could barely stand up!

Been vaguely following this thread and this is the most-interesting point raised. Now I really wanna know: [i]Why do[/i] DoE students have such massive ****ing backpacks?

Been vaguely following this thread and this is the most-interesting point raised. Now I really wanna know: Why do DoE students have such massive **** backpacks?

They have a colossal and often unnecessary list of mandatory kit that they have to carry with them. Add in the fact that mostly they'll be using budget gear, which is bulkier and less effective than top-end expensive stuff and you end up with those huge packs.

I get that it's well intentioned and the people behind it are thinking about safety, but the whole thing seems calculated to put young people off going into the outdoors for the rest of their lives... Why not get them out mountain biking and scrambling and trail running and doing shorter, more fun walks with a pre-prepared evening campsite with a barbecue and beer, oh, maybe not beer, but make it enjoyable and memorable.

Take them bothying. And wild camping. And bivvying. Get them out wild swimming and pack-rafting. Use their tech saviness to let them navigate with apps and GPS units. Teach them the rudiments of outdoor photography. Make it fun. Make it something that they'll fall in love with. Something that'll inspire them.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that older folk are out walking and enjoying the hills, but as it is, the DofE feels like a huge missed opportunity.

And it'd be nice not to feel sorry for them...

In my youth I worked in an outdoor shop and The North Face Mountain jacket was the aspirational GoreTex jacket at the time. It oozed cool and was one of the "go to" jackets for keeping the rain at bay for climbers/mountaineers. That was back in the early 90s, in my more impressionable teenage years 🙂 . It wasn't long after that that The North Face logo became a fashion "must have".

They stopped being an aspirational brand (for me) a long time ago.

I get that it's well intentioned and the people behind it are thinking about safety, but the whole thing seems calculated to put young people off going into the outdoors for the rest of their lives...

I've met plenty of DoE groups on their expedition camp and they never seem overly burdened by their packs. Always seem to be enjoying themselves.....

Been vaguely following this thread and this is the most-interesting point raised. Now I really wanna know: Why do DoE students have such massive **** backpacks?

Best one I had was a group who hid from me the fact they had portable DVD player with them...

I've met plenty of DoE groups on their expedition camp and they never seem overly burdened by their packs. Always seem to be enjoying themselves.....

I'm sure. I did on mine, and the massive pack was part of the fun. Give your mates a gentle shove and watch them pile into the hedge 2 or three paces later, unable to stop themselves! 😀

They have a colossal and often unnecessary list of mandatory kit that they have to carry with them.

I'll add myself to the list of people finding this the most interesting part of the thread. So what's on the list? Are all of them effectively self-sufficient even though they're walking in groups (to a campsite)

We see them out on the Surrey Hills regularly

Just, well, because...

I doubt most non-professional hill-users genuinely wear out much kit.

As regards the wrong/excessive equipment, I believe the Expedition module of the MBLA still mandates the use of a trailer 😆

molgrips - Member

Hah.. Most expensive item under men's clothing on Cotswold Outdoor is a Fjallraven Parker for £1500!

Justify that! It's not even waterproof.

You know this is the same as some non-biker going into a bike shop looking at the £5K bike and saying, 'you could buy a car for that', right?

Or someone going into an Audi dealership, looking at the price of a new A4, and saying I could run an old Passat for 1/20th the cost of that...

molgrips - Member

It wasn't designed to be waterproof.

Of course not. But point is that the most expensive jacket doesn't have every possible feature, so you can't use that to justify the cost.

That's okay, because I wasn't. 🙄
😉 😕

Or someone going into an Audi dealership, looking at the price of a new A4, and saying I could run an old Passat for 1/20th the cost of that...

Or a really old Prius.

Just going to leave this here:

http://www.selfridges.com/GB/en/cat/junya-watanabe-junya-watanabe-x-the-north-face-shell-jacket_423-2000022-WTJ111051/?previewAttribute=Yellow

That is amazing, here's a hardy young fellow wearing it on what I presume is the summit of Snowdon...
[img] [/img]

That is amazing, here's a hardy young fellow wearing it on what I presume is the summit of Snowdon...

I think you are mistaken. Summit of Snowdon would have more people around.

Actually, assuming that is Goretex, that's not a bad idea in principle. We get a lot of rain, and not everyone wants to look like a mountaineer, so I reckon there's a good market for breathable waterproof jackets that don't look crap.

That however isn't one of them 🙂 What happened to raincoats?

I remember many, many years ago as a macho 14 year old being perversely proud that as a percentage of body weight I was carrying as much kit as a Royal Marine..... 🙄

It could be quite practical actually, if you had a part-time job as a lollipop person.

I've met plenty of DoE groups on their expedition camp and they never seem overly burdened by their packs. Always seem to be enjoying themselves.....

Probably either stoned, drunk or high on pain-killers 😉

What happened to raincoats?

Good point actually - and links in with the earlier cagoule comments ... my cagoule in the '70s felt like I was wearing a huge tarp tent - the only things missing were the guy ropes and pegs. Many raincoats were actually better made than 'cagoules'

Late '70s/early '80s and raincoats were still de rigueur for some elements of the post punk/goth generation - and very useful they were too in the gloom of Northern Drizzle. And you could sit down without getting a wet bum, and could also be useful for alfresco shenanigans - the same can perhaps not be said for some of the modern short mountaineering jackets! 😆

And you could sit down without getting a wet bum, and could also be useful for alfresco shenanigans - the same can perhaps not be said for some of the modern short mountaineering jackets!

Also bike rain capes seem to have vanished, you used to get ones which covered the back wheel and handle bars all in one, for a totally dry cycling experience....

Also bike rain capes seem to have vanished

Carridice still make them:

[url= https://www.carradice.co.uk/products/rainwear ]https://www.carradice.co.uk/products/rainwear[/url]

Go and look at the CUK forum. Cycle capes there are their version of wood burners/Audis here.

D OF E puzzles me as well. Huge sacks and always walking along the roads doing 3 sides of a circle!! to go in a straight line. Not allowed, I was told by one group, to leave the road as they couldn't be checked up on. Ah well

Best one I had was a group who hid from me the fact they had portable DVD player with them...

Don't think Mrs Dubs has had that one.

Her favourite is all 3 members of a tent bringing a family sized jar (yes jar) of Dolmio with them...

footflaps - Member
...Also bike rain capes seem to have vanished, you used to get ones which covered the back wheel and handle bars all in one, for a totally dry cycling experience....

Simply wear a breathable jacket and if it rains, the cape goes on. Dry and warm, what's not to like.

But if you don't have mudguards, forget it.

I'll add myself to the list of people finding this the most interesting part of the thread. So what's on the list? Are all of them effectively self-sufficient even though they're walking in groups (to a campsite)

Almost. If you're sharing a 2-man tent then you need to pack the tent up and carry it between you and your tent-mate. You also need to carry your camping stove, food, mess tins, clothes, toiletries, first aid stuff, map, compass, etc. Pretty much the only thing you don't carry is two or three days worth of water.

At the end of the day you'll probably be back at the campsite you started from where you'll set your tent up again for the night.

As said, it's often cheap (or cheap, borrowed) kit, which is heavy and bulky. But not many parents are going to spend thousands kitting out their kids in fancy goretex jackets that won't fit them in 6 months time, or lightweight Ti camping stoves that will never get used again. And then you've got people who've never done anything like this before who are trying to gauge how much food they'll need, and will usually deliberately overdo it than risk ending up hungry on the last night.

Just come back from a very windy and damp walk, where the temperature was between 5 & 7 degrees. My 15 year old Gore XCR fabric Summit Series jacket did me proud. Still waterproof, windproof and highly breathable - so highly useable well into its second decade. Well worth the £300 - £350 it cost new IMHO.

My original North Face is about 17 years old now, comes out when working outside or the others aren’t available.

It’s still good, think it was about £180