[Closed] The M5 crash last night

Probably caused by speed

Could you put down your Daily Mail and tell me where you got that "fact" from, please?

(Also, on a point of pedantry, it wasn't this morning)

Hmm, haven't heard of a big pileup for many a year. Seems a little odd in this day and age. Foggy was it?

Right speed for the conditions. If its safe to do 20, it's 20. The biggest danger on the motorway comes from tailgaters and people concentrating more on their speedo than the flow of the traffic

All in all, a bit insensitive since we don't know what really happened yet.

why not just reduce the speed to 65mph the max for a coach.

NSL speed limit for a coach it 70mph, incidentally.

yep was around 10 ish last night Motorway closed all day
very sad for what i was hearing

Jesus project, you manage to twist many a story to suit your wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Rain and fog Mol. Happened yesterday evening. M5 still shut.

I guess some people won't be seeing their loved ones this weekend, or ever. But ne'er mind, it gives project something to whinge about on a Saturday.

EDIT

Rain and fog Mol

Seems there are conflicting reports about weather conditions. 😕

So far the only fact the OP has right is that there was a motorway involved.

Did no one die when average speeds where lower then? Move on from your vintage idyll and come into the 21st century.

It's an awful incident for all involved.

So why not stop being a dick about it and get on with something important?

Project is right though,I would bet my arse the major factor was inappropriate speed and following too close though!! The timing if this tragic event just highlights how daft increasing the speed limit is.

I was watching someone defend the increase to an 80mph limit on the telly box a few weeks back, cant remember if he was a Tory or an RAC/AA type person. Anyway he said something like people are sensible enough to be able to choose if they go 80 or 70 or whatever. I doubt that bloe has ever driven if he thinks motorists either think for themselves or appear capable of making sensible decisions.

Yet, he's on TV taking about it, and you aren't. Why d'you think that might be?

[i]Probably caused by speed[/i]

No, most probably caused by inappropriate speed and/or someone not paying attention.

I went on a speed awareness course a few months ago, and even the ex-copper who presented it was careful to not use the 'speed kills' phrase - because its not true.

[i]why not just reduce the speed to 65mph the max for a coach. [/i]

And 5mph will make what difference exactly?

I don't like the thought of this tragedy being turned into a spectacle for discussion so quickly, when we know so little, and people are yet to told that their loved ones have died. But I'd just like to say that this comment is worthy of note :

The biggest danger on the motorway comes from tailgaters

I can't see how 27 vehicles can be involved in one accident without it being a case of inappropriate distances between vehicles. It's clear that on motorways, the faster vehicles travel, the closer they get to the vehicle in front. The biggest gaps between vehicles are always between the slowest vehicles - madness. Even if a driver keeps a sensible distance it is no guarantee against shunting. Hopefully one day there will be the technology to clock and fine drivers of vehicles which travel too close to the vehicle in front.

I can't imagine what the first responders had/are having to deal with.

I'm ~20 miles away. There was a lot of water on the road. Then some fairly thick Fog formed very rapidly ~7pm and lasted until ~9pm when it completely cleared. I think the collisions happened at ~8pm.

My GF returned from a visit to Musgrove Park Hospital in Taunton via that section of road, at ~5pm. It would have been horrific in A&E and MAU dealing with the 40 hurt peeps. Feeling very relieved she wasn't caught up in it. My thoughts are with the 40 hurt peeps.

Even if its not *caused* by speed, speed makes it worse.

Wasn't there a fireworks display right next to the motorway when this happened? If so, I reckon that could have contributed as much as how close people drive to each other.

I can't see how 27 vehicles can be involved in one accident without it being a case of inappropriate distances between vehicles

Speed doesn't kill, proximity does.

Yet, he's on TV taking about it, and you aren't. Why d'you think that might be?

because he was a politician/lobyiest? Do you seriously think the majority of drivers make sensible and rational dcisions regarding speed and distance.

Oh and speed does kills you fools its simple physics, if your going faster the the forces in crashes are higher. Having appropriate safety margins can prevent the crashes of course, but the majority dont use them. All this ****in about with inappropriate speed crap is all well and good if the mjority of drivers had any ****in clue about what they were doing, but most dont.

I don't like the thought of this tragedy being turned into a spectacle for discussion so quickly,

Hear hear.

without it being a case of inappropriate distances between vehicles.

Yup. This is a fundamental problem generally. Many people drive at speed with the same braking distance they'd have around town. It's not enough.

I'm ~20 miles away.

OH was brought up in Taunton. It was a bit difficult last night.

Speed doesn't kill, proximity does

bullshit, you can be very close if in a traffic jam and the chances of death are low, each view boiled down the the basics is stupid.

Info from someone on Pistonheads who claims to be involved in the aftermath:

The incident appears to have been caused by a vehicle travelling too slowly to merge safely just pulling out from the sliproad and onto the motorway, causing the vehicle behind (an HGV) to brake/change lanes and setting off the horrific chain of events we're now discussing.

because he was a politician/lobyiest?

Was he? You thought he was might've been from the AA a minute ago.

Do you seriously think the majority of drivers make sensible and rational dcisions regarding speed and distance.

No, I don't. But that's a wholly different point.

All this **** about with inappropriate speed crap

Yes, it's crap, well done, you've got us there. We should all drive round on the motorway at 40mph irrespective of road conditions. That's a [i]much [/i]better idea.

there were certainly some impenetrable banks of patchy fog in the South West last night..
I imagine this was a major factor in producing the conditions needed for this sort of event to occur..

you can be very close if in a traffic jam and the chances of death are low, each view boiled down the the basics is stupid.

You can be driving at 200mph on an empty motorway and the chances of death are low, each view boiled down the the basics is stupid.

The incident appears to have been caused by a vehicle travelling too slowly

[img] [/img]

bullshit, you can be very close if in a traffic jam and the chances of death are low, each view boiled down the the basics is stupid.

Stop being an argumentative prick, I'm off to ride my bike

You can be driving at 200mph on an empty motorway and the chances of death are low, each view boiled down the the basics is stupid.

Tell that to that little fella on top gear.

Was he? You thought he was might've been from the AA a minute ago.

Could of been but they are a very big lobbying/pro car group.

Do you seriously think the majority of drivers make sensible and rational dcisions regarding speed and distance.

No, I don't. But that's a wholly different point.

How? We could get rid of all speed limits everywhere, if we think drivers should determine the speed they travel at? You'll need to explain your point here, I'm not sure I get it.

All this **** about with inappropriate speed crap

Yes, it's crap, well done, you've got us there. We should all drive round on the motorway at 40mph irrespective of road conditions. That's a much better idea.

Dont understand this point either, you seem a bit confused to me.

Nah, he was doing 288mph. Ultimate proof that it's speed that's dangerous.

The incident appears to have been caused by a vehicle travelling too slowly to merge safely just pulling out from the sliproad and onto the motorway, causing the vehicle behind (an HGV) to brake/change lanes and setting off the horrific chain of events we're now discussing.

Yup, I can imagine how that could have been a cause of the accident. The question is how did 27 vehicles become involved ?

i don't think it's about speed, it's about safe distance.

everyone could be travelling at 200 mph and there wouldn't be a pile up if safe distances were applied.

either way it's horrific stuff.

Stop being an argumentative prick, I'm off to ride my bike

Have fun

Easy there with the clever remarks. Real people have died.

The question is how did 27 vehicles become involved ?

Travelling too close to the car in front
Not concentrating on the road and events ahead
Poorly maintained vehicles
Tyres with too little tread
Inappropriate speed for the conditions
Sheer, utter bad luck 🙁

My thoughts are with the families, If I'd have stayed in Cornwall for the extra night that I was considering I'd have been passing that junction at about the time it happened!

That stretch of motorway seems to be an accident blackspot, several times I've been held up around Bridgewater, one time I ended up having to divert adding 4hrs to my journey home.

It's also worth noting that Bridgewater had flash flooding yesterday, that amount of water, heavy rain (it seems to be raining there more than anywhere else on the m40/A30, it's bit of a micro climate there) and thick fog, couple that with folk who will have been driving for around 2hrs+ coming up from the south. Its a worry given I drive that route a hell of a lot.

Tell that to that little fella on top gear.

Which motorway was he on when he crashed his rocket-powered car, then?

How? We could get rid of all speed limits everywhere, if we think drivers should determine the speed they travel at? You'll need to explain your point here, I'm not sure I get it.

Well, you essentially seemed to be saying "there was an expert on TV talking about this, I know more than he does."

I'd love to be able to get rid of speed limits. I think the majority of people would drive sensibly. However, a good chunk wouldn't, which is why limits are necessary. In an ideal world we'd have variable limits everywhere, but that's impractical.

Dont understand this point either, you seem a bit confused to me.

Seems one of us is.

I don't like the thought of this tragedy being turned into a spectacle for discussion so quickly, when we know so little, and people are yet to told that their loved ones have died.

Easy there with the clever remarks. Real people have died.

Well, you essentially seemed to be saying "there was an expert on TV talking about this, I know more than he does."

I'd love to be able to get rid of speed limits. I think the majority of people would drive sensibly. However, a good chunk wouldn't, which is why limits are necessary. In an ideal world we'd have variable limits everywhere, but that's impractical.

So politicans and procar lobbyiests are experts on road safety are they?

Do you really think most people drive sensibly? I'm stunned anyone would think this after a short trip around our roads.

Dont understand this point either, you seem a bit confused to me.

Seems one of us is.

so clear, thanks

Or, we could be adults and accept that nasty things happen and discussing them is one way of learning how to prevent them happening again, or lessen their impact.

So politicans and procar lobbyiests are experts on road safety are they?

i'm sure that traffic experts are employed by the pro lobby yes.

if you're trying to suggest that the anti lobby will be any more objective than the pro lobby then yours is an argument built on sand.

Easy there with the clever remarks. Real people have died.

Agreed. What the **** is wrong with you people? Bunch of pricks arguing about crap that doesn't matter. It's not a wonder people are leaving this frigging forum in droves.

Or, we could be adults and accept that nasty things happen and discussing them is one way of learning how to prevent them happening again, or lessen their impact.

Discussion is one thing. Territorial pissings are quite another.

Easy there with the clever remarks. Real people have died.

+1

I know a lot of you seem to enjoy arguing on the internet, but really.

So politicans and procar lobbyiests are experts on road safety are they?

Are you?

Do you really think most people drive sensibly? I'm stunned anyone would think this after a short trip around our roads.

That's out of context and not what I said. In hindsight though, "sensibly" is probably the wrong word; "at a reasonable speed" is what I meant. If we got rid of speed limits on motorways, I think the majority of people would drive at a reasonable speed. It might come as a shock to you, but [i]plenty of people drive under the speed limit right now.[/i] However, I think a percentage wouldn't, which is why limits are necessary.

Hang on.

Easy there with the clever remarks. Real people have died.

I'm not talking about this incident in any way. Is that directed at me? I'll bow out here if so.

Discussion is one thing. Territorial pissings are quite another.

Yup, I can see this thread rapidly deteriorating.

.....as if could go in any other direction 😐

Thoughts are with the folk who lost family and friends..and all those working on it. BBC footage looked like a nightmare.
Jeezo why do these things always need to turn into a "I know best" contest on here?

excellent, the moral minority get to close down another thread.

no one's being disrepectful, no one has come on said that they have relatives involved and that they're personally offended. people are just discussing a tragedy in which people have died. we talk about iraq, people have died there too, should we stop talking about that ?

things are starting to get a little out of hand on here.

It's not a wonder people are leaving this frigging forum in droves.

excellent, the moral minority get to close down another thread.

no one's being disrepectful, no one has come on said that they have relatives involved and that they're personally offended. people are just discussing a tragedy in which people have died. we talk about iraq, people have died there too, should we stop talking about that ?

things are starting to get a little out of hand on here.

+1 billion

If it is true this was started by someone joining the carriageway too slowly and kicking off the chain of last minute braking I wouldn't be surprised... There seems to be an increase in bullying from drivers on slips joining dual carriageways/motorways. People seem to be forgetting about the give way to the right approach and they think they can simply join regardless.

I tend to think there's been a bit of a increase in these sorts of things now we've largely replaced men in hats with yellow boxes. Indicators, road manners, distance (probably a factor here), texting etc. Can't be managed by a yellow box.

I do quite a lot of motorway miles and from what I've seen most near misses involving slip roads are caused by people not confident enough to join the motorway at the appropriate speed. Basically treating the slip road as a give way junction and causing vehicles to slam on and try to swerve.

Boblo you are so right
The amount of people whom think they have the right of way to come out
whilst its a give way line is beyond me then the wrist actions that follow
when they are so in the right 😯
Driving mainly on the A13 is one in a million beyond reality some times.

Such a tragic incident, one which sadly i was close to less than an hour before it happened.

I was in nearby fields walking at around 8pm,, this was less than a mile away from the incident. At that time visibility was very poor, my head torch lit up the wall of fog like a white sheet in front of me. I could see at best 5 metres in front of me, my location was at the same level as the motorway so would assume it was as bad there.

I was away from that area at the time of the incident so can't comment on the conditions over on the M5, but in town it was still extremely foggy.

At the time of the incident a nearby firework display was coming to a close, the display was very close to the M5.
My speculation based on conditions out there and the behaviour of people is thus.

Vision impaired on the M5 due to thick fog.
The nearby firework displays grand finale, is seen from the M5 through the mirk, as a bright flashing area, lots of colour, but only as a flashing colourful haze.

Drivers distracted by this haze, begin to bunch up, panic breaking ensues, lorries jack knife from heavy braking, inevitable carnage begins.

We all see the effects of rubber necking on the motorways, it's stupidly dangerous during normal conditions, add poor viability and inappropriate speeds into the mix and this shit happens.

A friend just phoned me in shock as she'd just had to pull over after a driver in front of her, rubber necked at the news crews, etc, then panic braked as he'd crept up on the vehicle in front of him, the knock on affect was and maybe is a further accident..

Stay safe out there peeps, it's full of crazy mindless drivers.

Thoughts are with all those involved, i hear of the horrific tales from the scene,children screaming, the heat from the flames being to intense for the first on the scene to be able to help. Them just standing helpless, hearing the panic and the pain.

The sound of the choppers and sirens through the night as the hero's work tirelessly to do whatever they could. Amazing people.

And finally to those stuck in traffic, waiting for it to clear, no doubt moaning and cursing about having messed up their evenings due to the delay. Spare a thought you people, you night was nothing by comparison.

Sharki.

althepal FTW

R.I.P to those lost.

Accident on type of road nobody is taught to drive on as a standard shocker.

The test is wrong. It teaches people to satisfy a ticksheet, not to demonstate full control of a vehicle in different scenarios. Having said that I dare say motorway pile-ups still happen in Finland.

Very well said Sharki,

Thankfully, these things appear to be very rare in the UK these days. Thoughts with the families of those involved.

Now if A_A and other idiots want to pick a fight about speeding, please **** off and do so somewhere else

From driving that section of motorway a fair bit, it always seems to be prone to bunching and stop start traffic. As usual I doubt it will change anything, give it a few weeks, maybe an inquiry and it will be forgotten

Accident on type of road nobody is taught to drive on as a standard shocker.

The test is wrong. It teaches people to satisfy a ticksheet, not to demonstate full control of a vehicle in different scenarios.

100% agree. My mum wouldn't even let me out to college in my car until I'd done the Pass+ course. Granted it's not the be all and end all, but I spent a couple of hours driving up and down the M1/M18/A1M with the instructor talking me through pretty much everything that was happening. Compare this to my uni housemate who, afaik, still won't use a motorway because she's too scared. Maybe confidence was a massive factor in someone pulling onto the carriage way at too slow a speed - if that is what happened...

Why start a post like this? And why allow yourself to argue about trivia?

Thoughtless, ghoulish and unnecessary.

the hero's work tirelessly to do whatever they could. Amazing people.

well said.

my thoughts are with everyone involved with and effected by last nights events.

Only just heard about this.. Truely awful! 🙁
Just called my Ex to make sure friends and family who usually attend the carnival with their kids and travel home via that stretch of the M5 are safe, thankfully they are.

My thoughts are with the friends and families of all those involved 😥

althepal FTW

R.I.P to those lost.

Accident on type of road nobody is taught to drive on as a standard shocker.

The test is wrong. It teaches people to satisfy a ticksheet, not to demonstate full control of a vehicle in different scenarios. Having said that I dare say motorway pile-ups still happen in Finland.

completely agree

Should the BBC be showing Mobile phone footage taken by someone driving in the opposite direction? IF it wasn't the driver doing the filming shouldn't they be making the fact clear? If it was the driver filming aren't they guilty of encouraging law breaking?

Bunch of pricks arguing about crap that doesn't matter

Well I'm sorry but I think something that cuases so may deaths on an almost daily basis is worth talking about.

Horrific incident.

Arguments about speed/proximity can go on for all eternity. Ultimately, I'm sure we'd all agree that there exists a significant minority of drivers who simply shouldn't be allowed on the roads.

Obviously, none of the esteemed members of STW are numbered amongst their ranks, but how many times have you seen...

. Someone pulling out of a slip road without looking

. Someone already on the road oblivious to a slip road and neglecting to move to the other lane so that they can merge and join, despite said other lane being empty.

. Dangerous undertaking followed by driver swerving in front of you without indicating

. Cars crossing 2,3 or even 4 lanes of traffic in a single manoeuvre when joining or exiting a motorway.

. Cars swerving in front of you in order to exit a motorway/dual carriageway having missed the off ramp.

etc etc etc

I used to see one truly mental piece of driving every couple of months or so, now it's every other time I drive.

I saw a car reversing on a roundabout the other day having missed the exit it intended to take! No amount of speed cameras are going to catch these people, but the reinstatement of properly resourced traffic patrols, draconian fines and giving courts far greater authority to ban people (for life if necessary) for reckless driving or order them to retake their driving tests may have an impact.

Driving conditions were foul last night, driving back from Yeovil up to Bruton in the fog was horrible. Had to take it really slow. We're used to bad fog from living up in Leeds, but I've never known anywhere that gets it so patchy/thick.

That said, it sounds like the accident was more down to the driver entering from the slipway without due attention. Horrendous situation: excellent work by the emergency services, as ever.

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-thread-for-a_a-et-al-to-discuss-the-pros-and-cons-of-speed ]Just for you A_A, as you're struggling to read again today...[/url]

Really feel for the familys of people who lost a Mum / Dad / Brother / Sister / Uncle last night . Parents should never , ever , have to bury thier children . It must be harrowing and soul destroying . There will be many people grieving at the loss of friends and familly today .
Yes , it was a tragic accident .
Yes , the general standard of motorway driving could be better.
Yes , speed was an issue .
If they were doing 0mph there would not have been a crash. The use / misuse of fog lights , over-tired drivers rushing to get home to loved ones after a long week at work, plus poor driving conditions all are contributing factors. All it takes is a 1 sceond distraction and a chain of events unfolds which results in the horror of last nights crash .
My thoughts are for the lost , and the emergency services personnel who have to deal with unfortunate incidents like these too often .

Cars and lorries dont crash themselves unfortunately. There will be plenty innocent people who have been caught up in this crash, but someone somewhere did something stupid.

Well said Sharki and Bullheart.

Sad news.

So seven confirmed dead on BBC News; shall we just be grateful it was not our family or friends and move on from this thread.

Thoughts are with all those involved, i hear of the horrific tales from the scene,children screaming, the heat from the flames being to intense for the first on the scene to be able to help. Them just standing helpless, hearing the panic and the pain.

Yes, that paints it clearly Sharki.

So please would the judge-mental people stop posting; now is not the time.

Really sad to hear this on the news this morning, my thoughts go out to the friends and family.

The daylight helicopter views show two artics stopped with a TNT truck jackknifed behind them, and four or five burned-out trucks in a line, along with cars behind that, which tends to support the report of a vehicle joining the m-way causing others to brake. The jackknifed truck was the main cause of the carnage, probably because with fog and spray drivers coming up behind wouldn't have been able to see it in front of them. Considering this is the worst multiple-vehicle accident since 1991, and considering how busy our roads are now, it shows that our roads are generally very safe indeed. I never feel uneasy driving on motorways, although I don't do it very often, tbh, and I drive for the conditions. This whole 80mph controversy is rediculous though, an indicated 80 is actually around 72mph, as most speedo's are 10% fast. Mine is, and the Puma I had before was*. People are generally going slower than they think they are.
*Checked against GPS, and the Puma's digital speedo.

just seen a report on the bbc and very much pushing the 80mph speed change being a bad thing in light of this crash.

It just strikes me as being a mile wide of the mark. Not in favour of higher limits as i don't think it actually will bring any benefits unless your the ceo of shell or bp. To be honest dropping the standard limit to 55 would probably be better. Introduce a variable limit so higher speeds at non peak times on all motorways

As an aside i wonder if anyone will use this to argue in favour of the clock changes that are being proposed. Dark evening are not good because it tends to be busier on the roads than dark mornings.

This is terribly sad.

As for speed limits, I'm sure most people can safely drive 10mph faster, but I really really don't want the idiots to have a legal excuse to go faster.

As an aside i wonder if anyone will use this to argue in favour of the clock changes that are being proposed. Dark evening are not good because it tends to be busier on the roads than dark mornings.

I think it would be dark at 2030 either way anyway wouldn't it?

Either way, this was a bloody awful accident. Lots of victims, coppers, paramedics, firemen, doctors and nurses coming to terms with what must have been a shit night today. 😐

There but for the grace of whatever...

As bravohotelier says above, we all see stupid things happening on the motorway each time we're on it. One stupid mistake and you could get caught up in something like that through no fault of your own. Sometimes when I'm on the motorway, which isn't much to be honest anymore, I'll find myself just having drifted too close to a car in front, I'll check myself, let the engine brake my car back to the two second gap...but in the meantime, had that car come to a halt against something immoveable, I'd be in his driving seat with him, both of us probably dead. I know no other STWers would commit such a stupid act, but there you go, it can happen to the best 😐 of us.

Careful out there. Lets everyone be awesome to one another!

FFS, the amount of arguing and speculation in this thread is ridiculous.

I feel for the folk involved and there families left behind I was there 3 hours earlier because I refused the overtime if I did the overtime well who knows

cut the shit folks there are people involved in this horrible accident please have a heart

Lets everyone be awesome to one another!

*Steve Vai widdle*

Introduce a variable limit so higher speeds at non peak times on all motorways

seems a good solution to me.