[Closed] The Left

We tried it and it didn't work out.

I still think the natural inclination of many parts of this country is to be left leaning.

But as you point out supporters of the left have essentially been robbed of anyone to vote for. All the actual left wing parties - Socailist Worker, Scottish Socialists, Respect are almost a lunatic fringe.

The only semi-mainstream leftwing party is the Greens, but they are pretty much starting from zero - well 1 MP in the UK.

So either the Labour party rediscovers its routes (un-effing-likely) or the Left starts from scratch in the UK.

Of course as you pointed out Scotland might have another way but that's another topic

The Left failed to redefine itself. The world has moved on from Socialism vs unconstrained Capitalism as the only alternatives. You could have a capitalist economy with fairness enforced through progressive taxation to afford a decent social welfare system eg Sweden.

So what's the way forward?

2 responses to this:

1. The way forward as it shall be - the 2 major parties remain in control of the nation despite losing the popular support of the public, and despite party membership figures continuing their downward trend... Nothing changes, except cynicism levels, which move into the 'red for danger' zone. Fortunately, Spring arrives and voters feel a little happier, although they don't know why.

2. The way forward as it should be - voters realise en masse that historic affiliations to old party names no longer apply. Major change occurs. Political parties quickly lose their relevance and a new, better system based around direct elector participation takes over.

Second one's pie in the sky (and I like pie), but it's the one I'd prefer.

Respect isn't a leftwing party, just like UKIP and the BNP aren't rightwing parties. There's no ideology to any of them and they'd shatter if they ever got power - it's a batty protest vote, a ragtag of weirdos and the credulous. The Greens are also not a leftwing party (arguably not a party at all, just a pressure group that's got a handful of representatives), and are also a protest vote, although they're less sinister.

I view myself as pretty neutral. I favour some left wing policies and some right.
The only way I'd ever vote for labour is if they divorced the unions. This leaves me with the tories or lib dems.......not exactly spoilt for choice. In fact no choice. I'd like to vote, but I think I'll have to abstain again.

I had a notion for a very similar thread, so I'll post my question on here...

There are a number of very eloquent, well-researched and persuasive "left-wing" posters on STW. They seem to spend a lot of time arguing their case in the various political threads. Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don't know it?

Edit (having just read that back): that's not designed as criticism btw. I guess I'm just wondering when/if those of a left-wing persuasion ever see the UK changing and if they would leave to somewhere more in tune with their thinking if it doesn't.

I'm interested in the People's Assembly idea. Will be going along in June to see what it's all about.

seosamh77, what do you mean by independance?

scotroutes - Member
Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don't know it?

If there was an alternative to recommend you may have a point, but what can you say? Vote for...? I don't even know who to vote for anymore 😥

I only know a few left wing people. One couple joined the local conservative club because the bar prices were better. Another sent their son to a private school.

I think socialism is a lot like communism, fine in theory, but never works in practice.

Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don't know it?

The UK electoral system is broken - there's no point trying to influence most voters because the votes of most voters don't matter to who gets elected. However I am doing quite a bit on the independence issue.

if they would leave to somewhere more in tune with their thinking if it doesn't.

My GF is talking about emigrating if we don't get independence in 2014 - Sweden is top of her list 😉

I view myself as pretty neutral.

Oh in that case and by that yardstick I view myself as fairly neutral

The only way I'd ever vote for [s]labour[/s] Tory is if they divorced the [s]unions[/s] rich

See convincing innit

Self awareness fail

Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don't know it?

FWIW there is the same number of right wing ones on here they just never seem to get the same attention - probably a fair point that we never STFU

f they would leave to somewhere more in tune with their thinking if it doesn't.

For some reason the lefties [ scotsroutes nothing personal i know you are not having a dig] get this dig of "hypocrisy"

Bit like when flashy used to point out the computer was made by a private company/capitalism whilst ignoring the fact the internet came from the state but him using it was not etc

I don't even know who to vote for anymore

This. A million times this.

I live in a safe Labour seat, so it's pointless voting for anyone except our pretty nasty MP.

None of the parties are appealing to me.

But, as my old grandad once said to me, people died for my right to vote. I'd love to know who these people were, but I have some sense of obligation. So, against my better principles, I voted Lib last election. That turned out well... 👿

shermer75 - Member
seosamh77, what do you mean by independance?

Aaah..

[quote=Lifer ]
If there was an alternative to recommend you may have a point, but what can you say? Vote for...? I don't even know who to vote for anymore [i]Be[/i] the alternative?

Brilliant.

The UK electoral system is broken - there's no point trying to influence most voters because the votes of most voters don't matter to who gets elected. However I am doing quite a bit on the independence issue.

It's not broken at all.
It's designed like that.
So it fulfils it's brief perfectly.

I'm a passionate believer in voting even if you are in a safe cosntituancy. A good example of why I think this would be the recent Eastleigh by election. The liberals won the seat but everyone was talking about how UKIP, not the Tories, came second and prompted much anti-Europe rhetoric from the Government. So, in that sense, UKIP had very much scored a victory without even having an MP elected.

If you're not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

If you're not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

That's not how I see it.

Voting only makes sense if there is somebody/something to vote for.
Being the alternative is almost impossible without the apparatus to make it happen.
No right to complain? Not having a proper electoral voice is reason enough to complain, I would think.

This is how nature works regardless of who you are and the part of the world you are in ... maggots! The lot of you!

Lack of common sense is the major problem for all political parties.

The politicians on the other hand are all career politicians - in for themselves - fame, power and wealth or perhaps orgies ...

As for the people, they had never had it so good since WWI/WWII relying on handouts and with the belief that they are entitled to everything without working for it. No more self reliance particularly in the developed nation ... which developing nation is trying to emulate ... bunch of tossers.

Then we have all those micro managements going on in the society - local councils etc trying to run our lives. The minor bureaucrats with powers getting to their heads that sometimes can be rather anal about how we live.

Family life. Well, we let the society deal with out off springs ... We blame the govt etc apart from ourselves and we rely on the govt to look after our family ... yes, blame the govt. Maggots!

Regarding rights and wrongs ... we are always right. Dammit! When do we learn that we are maggots?

etc ...

oldnpastit - Member
If you're not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

Oh in that case and by that yardstick I view myself as fairly neutral

You know absolutely nothing about me. My views are far, far more balanced than yours are. At least I am open minded enough to see all sides rather than follow a tired party line. Your view of the world is very narrow and prescribed. I'd be surprised if you didn't refer to the socialists handbook in order to have your opinion told to you.

Self awareness fail

If you're not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

I sit in the same space as Wrecker and share a similar level of frustration.
I love camo16's option 2 and struggle to see another way forward that could engage the people of the UK if it stays as it is, unless we have another extreme party/leader that polarises the public, but I suspect that apathy may have the upper hand.

I love camo16's option 2 and struggle to see another way forward that could engage the people of the UK if it stays as it is, unless we have another extreme party/leader that polarises the public, but I suspect that apathy may have the upper hand.

Ta!

I had an idea a while back to establish the 'No Parties Party', whose strapline would be 'tough on political parties; tough on the causes of political parties'.

I still believe that it would be possible and desirable to replace local MPs with true electoral representatives, whose primary task would be to manage an interactive feedback system that takes in constituents' views on important policy items. Feedback would then be transferred to Parliament... making the representative a real representative, not a representative of a political party.

Elections would still take place, but the Cabinet members would be elected directly... in which case each Minister would have to prove their knowledge/competence for their chosen Cabinet position.

Interactivity and proper accountability - me likey!

oldnpastit - Member
If you're not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

Since '45, our political system has proved that it can only produce two outcomes. Labour or Conservative governments.
This is despite the fact that at every election, more people have voted against the "winning" party that then formed the next government than for it.
As an example, 65% of the people voted against Labour in 2005, but they still won 55% of the seats in parliament.
Tends to back up bencooper's comment that:

there's no point trying to influence most voters because the votes of most voters don't matter to who gets elected.

Oldanpastit,
Would you care to explain how going through with this pointless ritual somehow confers on a person "the right to complain", as opposed to legitimising an electoral system that can ignore 65% of the voters votes.

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/uktable.htm

Oh in that case and by that yardstick I view myself as fairly neutral

You know absolutely nothing about me.

My views are far, far more balanced than yours are.

At least I am open minded enough to see all sides rather than follow a tired party line.

Your view of the world is very narrow and prescribed.

I'd be surprised if you didn't refer to the socialists handbook in order to have your opinion told to you.

Self awareness fail

Not on my end, son.

As for you for you being neutral it is a silly as me claiming I am.
As for defending it here have a spade I dont even want to google for an image

Totally agree with oldnpastit, there is no excuse for not voting if you really don;t agree wit any party then at least spoil the paper as that will be recorded. There is always a comical candidate so vote for them as a protest vote.

The other thing to remember is that is you don't like something complain to your MP. I complained to my local MP about how crap the tax credits system is and got a reply from them that they would bring it up with the minister and also a direct response from HMRC. They might not make any changes but at least they then directly know people are unhappy.

oldnpastit - Member
If you're not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

I will not vote for the least worst. What's pride got to do with it?

As I said I'm interested in seeing if the People's Assembly gets off the ground as I think that could be (or be the spark that gets people considering) an alternative.

The other thing to remember is that is you don't like something complain to your MP.

Sorry, but 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 and 😆

Tried it, several times.

Louis Ellman, our local MP, doeth not do quick replies.

In fact, she rarely replies at all.

And when she does, the original question is simply passed on to someone else, who fails to answer the question.

Clearly, this voter is not high on the Ellman list of priorities.

It's not broken at all.
It's designed like that.
So it fulfils it's brief perfectly.

yes the union line clearly showed how open minded you are on all issues and not following any sort of party line
Shall we discuss Northern Ireland then next to see your neutrality?

The union line was (as explained) due to this being a discussion on the left. As you conveniently omitted to quote; I agreed with your correction regarding the tories.
NI has nothing to do with left/right. Not all of us view EVERYTHING as left vs right. Some of us form our own opinions based on facts and experience.
You can regard me as right/left/whatever, I really couldn't care less. To do so would just be plainly incorrect, but crack on if it makes you feel less of an extremist.

I would be surprised if you replied without an insult

woody74 - Member
Totally agree with oldnpastit, there is no excuse for not voting if you really don;t agree wit any party then at least spoil the paper as that will be recorded. There is always a comical candidate so vote for them as a protest vote.

The other thing to remember is that is you don't like something complain to your MP. I complained to my local MP about how crap the tax credits system is and got a reply from them that they would bring it up with the minister and also a direct response from HMRC. They might not make any changes but at least they then directly know people are unhappy.

Prostest votes/spoiled papers don't mean jack. I think dwindling voter numbers speak louder.

My MP is Fracis ****ing Maude, never received as much as an automated response when (attempted) contacting him (email and letter).

Hasn't the left been in power for the last 20 years? or are you talking the about the authoritarian left operating so well in NK?

Personally I don't see a proper left wing party being electable in this country - almost certainly the reason nuLab arrived on the scene as they came to the same conclusion. What would a proper left wing govt stand for? What would the policies be that would impact us citizens? How would they change the country for the better? When we have answers to those questions lets see how many would be happy to vote for it. Although I was only a youngster at the time the 70s felt like an utterly miserable time to be living in the UK from a political perspective and that is the abiding image people like me have of what a socialist govt means in this country. And it is for that reason that would struggle to vote for one. What nuLab did was to position a party that looked like it had socialist ideals but was still a centrist party so not too extreme and thus looked like a palatable option to vote for.

The trouble with a lot of leftish ideaologies is they are based on the perception that we can control human societies, fairness in distribution of resources etc. and everyone will be happy. Is very laudable but fundamentally flawed. At an indivdual level people will agree it's right, at a herd level the herd instincts and behaviours kick in. Most people in our society are acquisitive to some level. As they gain possessions and wealthy they have earnt (let's assume for a moment we're talking about people who have legitimately earned their wealth) they need state support less and are also less willing to see what they have earned go to other people. It's fairly natural.

A a societal level people aren't on a whole that alturistic. We need controlled capitalsim to encourage people to participate in society. What they have to put in to support others has to be balanced with what they keep.

The two things that we don't seem to be able to get right is the balance of between what is earnt and what is returned right (40% tax on slaries over £42k is ridiculous, you can't even buy an average price house (£238k according to the BBC) at x 3.5 that income, you need to be earning £68k to afford what used to be considered a sensible mortage multiple). We also seem to fail to curb the excesses of the capitalist system, either at personal or corporate level.

We need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage level and reduce the cost of living, reduce VAT, allow house prices to return to affordable levels (and that won't happen through house building but by restricting the amount people can borrow). This will bring most people into the group that contribute more to society than they take out, meaning more money for those unable to contribute.

That only leaves the very difficult question of what to do with the very small but problematic group who won't take part in society, the Mick Philpotts of this world (and that is a tiny proportion of people on benefits). Spending large amounts of money and resources on these people doesn't work, that's been proved, redirecting those resources to the majority would have much better results.

IanW - Member
Hasn't the left been in power for the last 20 years? or are you talking the about the authoritarian left operating so well in NK?

Are you seriously saying that Nu Labour were of the left?

😆

How authoritarian would you like your lefties to be, genuine question?

stumpyjon - Member
That only leaves the very difficult question of what to do with the very small but problematic group who won't take part in society, the Mick Philpotts of this world (and that is a tiny proportion of people on benefits). Spending large amounts of money and resources on these people doesn't work, that's been proved, redirecting those resources to the majority would have much better results.

But we don't spend large amounts on them. Where has it been proved that it doesn't work and what/how would the results be better redirectly paltry amounts to whoever (is it just 'anyone' else?)?

What country can we aspire to be more like?

Are you seriously saying that Nu Labour were of the left?

Ideologically they said they were. And had tendencies towards that. What they actually did ended up being generally quite centrist and a mix of a left wing group trying to do right wing type things in a way that won't upset people too much and frighten them away. And broadly not very successfully. The average man in the street would define Labour as the left leaning party. Whether that's true or not is a different matter. 🙂

IanW - Member
How authoritarian would you like your lefties to be, genuine question?

3

Prostest votes/spoiled papers don't mean jack. I think dwindling voter numbers speak louder.

That's a fair point, spoiled votes mean that people still believe in the system, if not the parties.

If no one votes, well ultimately that would mean that people believe the entire system is broken. Ie the form of democracy and the parties.

2 very distinct things. I very much believe the latter.

Are you seriously saying that Nu Labour were of the left?

Are you seriously saying they were on the right?

They were centre ground politicians, the tories are centre ground politicians - neither are radically right or left, and have not been at any time in the past fifty years, its all manoeuvring round the base of the post war consensus, even Thatcherism never really looked at any time like getting rid of the welfare state, NHS or taxpayer run schooling, its always been a fairly minor rebalancing of emphasis but essentially the same central tenet.

The biggest weakness of the left has been constant and repeated cries of 'wolf' and telling us that the sky is falling, when in reality its not - from the time of my childhood I was told that we were all headed for nuclear destruction because of the warmongering of the right, well, guess what, it never happened - its pretty much carried on the same way with everything ever since.

seosamh77 - Member
2 very distinct things. I very much believe the latter.

Said it a bit more eloquently than me though!

Bloomin' People's Front of Judea...

If no one votes, we'll ultimately that would mean that people believe the entire system is broken. Ie the form of democracy and the parties.

Trouble is, we'll never get to the position where no one votes...

[img] [/img]

Question is, how low does it have to go - and how small must the membership of political parties be - before it's generally accepted that we need a new plan?

rattrap - Member

"Are you seriously saying that Nu Labour were of the left?"

Are you seriously saying they were on the right?

I didn't even hint that I thought they were. Which I don't/didn't.

There is a fix for these problems...

CaptainFlashheart - Member
Bloomin' People's Front of Judea...

Splitters!

Which for me is the real reason we have no mainstream Left. So much energy spent on pedantic infighting and fear of losing what little support base a paticular faction has that there is no concerted effort like there is on the 'right' over benefits/islamification*/immigration. They can't see the wood for the trees.

*supposed.

IanW - Member
There is a fix for these problems...

After seeing that, 14.3.

 

even Thatcherism never really looked at any time like getting rid of the welfare state, NHS or taxpayer run schooling, its always been a fairly minor rebalancing of emphasis but essentially the same central tenet.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/28/margaret-thatcher-role-plan-to-dismantle-welfare-state-revealed

my comparatively short time alive has shown me that nothing ever lasts forever.the 79 tories and 97 nu-lab both appeared to have killed off the opposition forever. they didn't even though the gap between the two shrunk to a negligible margin.

eventually the neo-liberal consensus will lose its power and i remain hopeful that a left wing government will take its place.

i don't think that its as far fetched as it seems. many people are already leaning to the left but don't actually know it - many many people support re-nationalisation of the utilities, most people are anti foreign wars, most people support the nhs, most people will be against benefit cuts once the tories target pensions (only a matter of time)lots of people are against a federal europe.

i think its highly possible.

@camo16 - discussed similar in the office on a regular basis. I still like the idea.
I have voted at every election since I turned 18, always thought that as a floating voter I made a difference. Has my vote made any difference in reality, yes in the last one and most certainly not the difference I had expected or wanted. Yep I too trusted Nick!!

The greatest example of the total impotence of the labour party is seeing that spineless non-entity Ed Milliband praising Thatcher as he's too shit scared of the right wing press to even suggest that not everybody thought she was great. And with that, they finally gave up officially on even any pretense to represent the working class of this country

Politics in this country is dead in any meaningful sense

@camo16 - discussed similar in the office on a regular basis. I still like the idea.

Awesome. Good to know there are others who see beyond political parties. 😉

Properly thought out, I'm sure an inclusive, embracing system could be thought out and finally we could begin as a society to follow common goals, rather than blindly pursue partisan conflict - which, when you think about it, only ever benefits a minority.

i don't think that its as far fetched as it seems. many people are already leaning to the left but don't actually know it - many many people support re-nationalisation of the utilities, most people are anti foreign wars, most people support the nhs, most people will be against benefit cuts once the tories target pensions (only a matter of time)lots of people are against a federal europe.

If you could get a party off the ground with most of that that manifesto I'd think it'd get a fair few votes.

Have to disagree with the Tories targetting pensions - Mr Brown got there first a couple of years ago and did a pretty good hatchet job on them himself.

Problem is most people just vote for a party, not it's policies. Certainly up here in the North - generations of Labour voters told to vote Lab by their fathers. And judging by the ones I've met handling elections, a fair few don't share the Labour (well, what STW see as left wing) mentalities, some would shame the BNP in their views.

Question is, how low does it have to go - and how small must the membership of political parties be - before it's generally accepted that we need a new plan?

I was thinking of an upper house that's elected by department/expertise. So there'd be a certain number of seats per department and you'd vote for indviduals by department rather than for party representatives by voting districts.

But at the moment that is a tiny peice of the putrid pie.

Local elections, Police Commissioners etc. have shockingly low turnouts. Hardly a eye is raised at the figures. The powers that be will never say "Hey, lets sort this out", it needs to come from somewhere further down the foodchain.

I would love to see a "none of the above" option on ballot papers. And it would be required if voting became mandatory I'd say.

Voted in the last election and put the X on the Conservative Box still ended up with a leftie ****** as an MP though.

The choices at the time?
Lib Dem - great ideas that were thought up under the assumption of never having to carry them out
Labour - GB and his band of idiots running up debts with no actual plan to cut them down
Wacko Nut Job/Single Issue parties - 1 policy to grab headlines and no idea about the rest (see lib dem - who needs proper policies we wont win)

The alternatives?
Increasingly centralist parties
7 part coalitions falling apart all over the place
Far Left? Tax everyone and raise the minimum wage so 50% of the population needs a pay rise? Inflationtastic. Spend money but fail to collect it?
In general the state grows with the left and shrinks with the right, somewhere in the middle there is a sweet spot.

Looking back the way the Uk was going things needed to change,
house prices are unaffordable for the young - governments can't tolerate a drop as this would impact key voters
Public sector spending was out of control and had no hope of being brought under control - mass cuts may not be the answer but something needed done
Energy was approaching crisis point

It was always said whoever won the election would become unelectable for 10 years because of what was needed (remember how labour still fail to propose a solution but just oppose anything) CMD may pull something off, looking back PM's have been more unpopular (maggie) and got re-elected due to the fact people acknowledge that some things need done.

@ Lifer, surely that's possible for both houses?

A Government made up entirely of knowledgeable and independent professionals with the proper expertise for their sector would, arguably, be better suited to the job?

Rather than, say, having a Chancellor with a latin or history degree...

Plus, I like the idea of individual accountability on a department by department basis.

I was thinking of an upper house that's elected by department/expertise. So there'd be a certain number of seats per department and you'd vote for indviduals by department rather than for party representatives by voting districts.

Sadly, it'd still boil down to voting for the 'Labour fella' in the Transport department. The Police elections were 'meant' to be party neutral but fell into the political parties pretty quickly and probably reflected the incumbent MPs on that area fairly closely I think.

Sadly, it'd still boil down to voting for the 'Labour fella' in the Transport department.

Maybe so - initially at least.

But as a Government of independents took shape, it'd be natural surely for those elected to be those most suited to the job. And, even if the Labour guy did get in, at least he'd have to campaign on the basis of his personal knowledge/expertise, rather than under the umbrella of his former party.

Over time, competence would overcome historic left/right affiliation.

My pipe dream ^^^^

I also like the idea of an unelected upper house as it provides some checks and balance to the vote grabbing short termism that people tend to whinge so much about. A bunch of people that can look at things on merit. At least if it is all elected then it should be staggered (ie 1/4 at once) for 10 year terms.

Tricky one. Some of the best changes I've seen at work have been when people have come in with no experience of the company and said "why are you doing it like this?", which is normally replied to with "because we've done this for the last x years (and I don't want to change because I'm comfortable doing it this way)". Sometimes you need a shake up

camo16 - Member
@ Lifer, surely that's possible for both houses?

A Government made up entirely of knowledgeable and independent professionals with the proper expertise for their sector would, arguably, be better suited to the job?

I think you need a government of some sort to propose policy/law etc as otherwise how would budgets etc be set? The details and scrutiny of these policies would then be examined/altered/passed back by the knowledgeable and independents mentioned above.

Hold on fellas, you do realise we're having a sensible reasoned argument here with no name calling? 😯

I vote we get this thread closed down immediately...

I think you need a government of some sort to propose policy/law etc as otherwise how would budgets etc be set?

Yeah, in my vision, the knowledgeable independents form the Government. In that way, there's still an executive, but without the partisan party make-up. Policy is still made - made by people who are directly elected to their respective Cabinet roles. Budgetary compromise is made by neutrals with no left/right agenda - the danger being that each independent would fight for their own corner - with disputes potentially being handed over to an upper house - and, realistically, a direcly elected Prime Minister.

Whether or not this could work without the systematic policy enforcement that a Party provides is open to question.

I have a dream!

EDIT: apologies if my contributions have taken this thread OT. 😳

I do like that but I think that self-interest would mean that's impossible. Recognising/combatting self-interest in the design of a new system is imperative!

In the lower house there could be seperate votes for the chancellor, the knowinds would then have to set policy based on the budgets their department is given?

The present parties already push this idea of successful individuals (professionals) being the requirement for ruling. To be honest I want to see more people in parliament who have faced redundancy, had periods living on the dole and prioritised family and life balance over dedication to the rat race.

Firstly: left wing politics has a problem globally - the most extreme version of it - Communism - collapsed because it failed to provide the people with a standard of living they were happy with... Even in China, they're embracing capitalism whilst claiming to be a Communist state.

Secondly: in the UK, most people alive today have seen only one outcome of a Labour government - the country being left in dire straits. This has happened once in the late 70s and again now. So it's very hard for left wingers to persuade a voter that their lives will be better with them in power.

So the local and global direction of politics is rightwards... due to absence of anyone who's left wing actually having any power or likely to persuade voters to vote for them.

Other countries (in Europe particularly) seem to manage well enough on coalitions. My view is this is likely to be the outcome in the next UK election too. In some ways this is what the people want - less swinging from one ideology to another every new Parliament, which will hopefully lead to more pragmatic governance. Personally I've never liked relying on idealists for the important stuff...

I think we need the parties to catch up with this idea... but I suspect they may take their time...

The parliament by experts would need a revitalised and efficient Civil Service to enact all of the decisions and keep things running. May need a bit of a purge and some new rules if it is to work.

MSP - Member
The present parties already push this idea of successful individuals (professionals) being the requirement for ruling. To be honest I want to see more people in parliament who have faced redundancy, had periods living on the dole and prioritised family and life balance over dedication to the rat race.

I don't think 'success' would need to be a requirement for candidacy, again that's a major problem that party politics solves quite well (but doesn't provide the best candidates). Just knowledge.

I'm not interested in wingedness, it's another word for dogmatic.

A X wing govt who had good evidence that a policy normally considered Y wing could do a lot of good would find it hard to implement, because it's not of the correct wing.

Same with greens, they absolutely must follow green dogma regardless of all else.

We need a follow the evidence party, but as it would want to legalise drugs, build nuclear power stations, be completely uninterested in immigration, and have a fiscal policy of "we'll let ya know when we've seen the books, and then a mix of right and left", it would be unelectable.

(EDIT: I didn't RATS, but a scan suggests that's kinda what the thread is mostly about! 🙂 )

As an aside, I want a new strict code of conduct for the house of commons, if they were required to act like adults they might start thinking like adults, plus they'd (accidentally, at first) listen to each other and realise that things are more nuanced than their party fed dogma.

rogerthecat - Member
The parliament by experts would need a revitalised and efficient Civil Service to enact all of the decisions and keep things running. May need a bit of a purge and some new rules if it is to work.

Please don't use 'purge' in a thread about the left!