[Closed] The lad that's been stabbed and killed whilst robbing!

I'm sure we can all agree that the correct procedure for just this eventuality wasn't followed in this case. Knives indeed? Pah

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Munqe chick - I'm aware of what burglary and aggravated burglary entail. You can still have a robbery within a house though, whether or not a burglary is also taking place. R v Clark.

If 4 masked men broke into muy house I'd shit myself. I'd fear primarily for Mrs. S's safety and would do anything to stop the event from continuing. I.e. I would do anything to get them to not be there anymore.

Mr. Flanagan succeeded in this. His family and himself are physically unharmed. The burglars left the scene - one of them is now deceased as a result of the reasonable force applied.

If Mr. Flanagan is tried for murder then we should all head down to a peaceful protest in London. An important and positive precedent could be set with this case.

EDIT: those Bombers are particularly beautiful binners. I thank you.

derek - you do not have enough detail to know if the level of force was reasonable or not. That is what a trial is for if there is enough evidence to charge him.

Now it might be reasonable, it might not. We simply do not know right now

Unless Flanaghan's actions were as extreme as those of Tony Martin's (and we don't know yet), there is no way a jury would find him guilty.

Well it looks like there aren't going to be any witnesses from the deceased side does it?? With "mates" like that who needs knife wielding enemies??

Thegreatape I can't find R v clarke, everything on t'internet refers to Australian law, wanted to read it out of interest. Yup I agree there is a technical robbery but my point (which I didn't explain) was CPS would NEVER charge with robbery and Joe public gets confused and talks about "being robbed" when normally they haven't they've been burgled!

I nearly stepped on a bumblebee earlier. My appetite for killinz is somewhat diminished.

I agree that the two terms are frequently misused or misunderstood, so I see what you were trying to explain. Clark got 11yrs for aggravated burglary and robbery after assaulting an old lady in her house whilst pinching a small amount of money from her. I've no doubt you're correct about the CPS - I haven't had the pleasure of them for quite a few years thankfully!

Now it might be reasonable, it might not. We simply do not know right now

I can speculate widely with the best of them and I strongly suspect (if we believe what is in the public domain) that he will be perceived as acting resonably.
Given that there were 4 intruders and at least one was armed then he had reason to believe his life was in danger.
Its unlikely that (given the victim was carried out of the property by his accomplices) that he was alone with the victim for long or that he inflicted a prolonged attack on him as his accomplices would have likely either intervened or have fled without him (which they didnt)
In my head I think the wounds were inflicted in the melee and 4 against 1/2 I would be surprised if he was prosecuted.

I nearly stepped on a bumblebee earlier. My appetite for killinz is somewhat diminished.

Sicko, I bet you got a real buzz out of it too.

Thegreatape..wow the CPS did a double whammy there with that! Wonder how they did both offences, normally they chicken out and just run with one! Interesting, I'll have a look when I'm back at work and can get access to PNLD, alawys interested in cases like that.

oh that was a barbed and stinging attack there cougar

derek - you do not have enough detail to know if the level of force was reasonable or not. That is what a trial is for if there is enough evidence to charge him.

Now it might be reasonable, it might not. We simply do not know right now

Not sure I agree with this. What could be considered 'too much' force against 4 guys in balaclava's armed with (at least) 1 knife?

They have it within their means to inflict a bloody, painful and horrific death on you and possibly your family. If this doesn't constitute a reaosn to use any force at all within your disposal, what on earth does?

Please don't tar me with the 'internet warrior/fantasist' brush as just because I am suggesting that you should be allowed to use
this kind of force within the law under certain extrene circumstances does not mean I think I am capable of it myself, but that doesn't change my point.

I'm not suggesting that if you use force and they run off you have carte blanche to chase them and inflict violence, but whilst they are in your house if they're carrying a weapon like a knife it's an awful lot to ask someone to remain calm, rational and employ logical thinking to resolve the situation under such extreme stress.

Edit- apologies if your post was made before some of the more detailed info appeared in the news etc.

Duggan - one aspect would be what was the stabbed boy doing at the time? Was he still a threat when the fatal blow was struck? Was he the one with the knife?

If he is coming at you with a knife and you stab him then probably reasonable - if he has been scared off and is trying to get out of the door then its not reasonable to chase him and stab him.

Similarly was it multiple blows? ie the first one could be reasonable - the second onwards he is no longer a threat so not reasonable.

Its considerations such as this that a jury will decide if its reasonable ( assuming enough evidence / chance of conviction for a prosecution)

I think, once a person feels for their own or families safety, in their own home, which should be the safest environment imaginable, then nothing is off limits, one should be allowed to do whatever is deemed required to ensure their own and families safety.

if you don't like it, don't burglez!

i reckon if that became law, burgleriezes would plummet pretty quick! A short spell as a paid for guest of HRH isnt really a deterent for these people.

IIRC, Tony martin was being terrorised by these kids for months, they had it coming to them.

then nothing is off limits, one should be allowed to do whatever is deemed required to ensure their own and families safety.

Yup - that is what the law is now. What you cannot do is continue to inflict violence once the threat is gone. Tony Martin shot an unarmed boy in the back as he ran away. He was no threat to Martin at that point

Edit- @TJ^^^

Yeah I agree that if they are running away and for example you strike them (with whatever) as they are exiting your window than is more complex..I think I see your original point now.

Still, I guess by that point you still might be working under the assumption (severley frighetend) that they are going to a van and/or their mates to return with their own weapon.

Also, for people not used to these kind of situations it seems a lot to ask for them to instinctively know how much force is neccesary or reasonable. I could expect a Policeman or a Soldier to be a good judge of this.

For someone who has never been in a fight before in their lives, it is surely impossible to get this right first time when you are terrified and presumably not thinking straight if at all. If you under-judge it, you will most likely get pasted, over-judge it and you risk being on a charge yourself (regardless of how many times this does or doesn't actually happen).

It's an impossible issue to get any 'correct' answer on, but I see your point. I think I would always sway towards the householder though, after all it is the intruder who is responsible for the situation exisitng at all. It seems unfair to pain-stakingly unpick and analyse every action of an armed robbery victim in court given the the extreme cicumstances and lightening quick decisions that have to be made, though I concede it is neccesary.

From the few cases I have seen come to court you have to go seriously OTT to get into significant trouble. See Martin and the high Wycombe case.

An acquaintance of mine was being harassed by a gang who tried to break into his house. No weapons tho. He hit one with an axe that he just happened to have to hand ( he is a tree surgeon) Put the lad in hospital with a fairly serious injury. Was prosecuted and got a small fine and no jail time. GBH but mitigated or something. Now imagine if he had hit someone with the axe not in self defence - he would have been in serious trouble

If he is coming at you with a knife and you stab him then probably reasonable

nothing is off limits, one should be allowed to do whatever is deemed required to ensure their own and families safety.

thieving nasty scum got what he deserved. no sympathy at all 😐

Also no sympathy :?He put himself in this position.
You reap what you sow.

so you value your things above life, your moral compass is as broken as the thiefs.

not above life. but definitely above scum like this 😯

You teach logic and ethics dont you? I can tell by the way you construct a strong and powerful logical argument where you both deny the point and then reaffirm the point I made. Only an expert could do it in so few words.

it must be great if a little dark up there eh? 😆

glitch thingy

An Englishman's home is his castle.. (add whichever nation neccessary to remove cause for accusations of discrimination..)

There is nothing particularly precious about life. It's abundant, cheap and springs from nothing. And being born comes with no special rights to survive. We in the west have some seriously warped ideas about life and death.

Perhaps we can give health and safety training to burglarz? Teach them to do a risk assessment before hitting somebody's home. Avoid situations where they may get their off button hit by an occupant.

(Mr MC posting)

every aggravated burglary I've had any involvement in investigating was drug related (even it if was a mistaken identity and they'd raided the wrong house with machetes 😯 , they were after a drug dealer).

pitduck can you clarify the comment as I dont understand it.

gwj72 I am not sure why you think life is not precious nor am I sure what you think the east V west distinction is here.

I liked your deleted comment M-C 😀

Mr MC - your outrageous stereotyping appears to have gone missing.

Probably for the best, even if you were probably right.

Mr MC)

found it on similar thread in another forum, reconsidered it as I havent checked exactly where it is. Its our little secret 🙂

I am not sure why you think life is not precious nor am I sure what you think the east V west distinction is here.

Do you think life is precious then? Strikes me people are being born, getting killed and naturally shuffling off the mortal coil all the time. It's unstoppable. Some kids in Africa are born and die having never eaten a proper meal. Completely innocent, law abiding citizens are slaughtered on a whim by elected governments on our behalf (and we don't even vote them out). The poorest people in the world have the most children, making the problem worse through dilution of their already scarce resources.

Each of these people are precious to their loved ones. But precious per se they are not.

I live surrounded by sheep. I see new lambs born in the spring and then watch them go to slaughter in the autumn. The ewe's hang around near the gate for a few days wondering where they have gone. Then move on. And the cycle begins anew.

Life itself is the true wonder of the universe. But no individual life is any more remarkable than another in the grand scheme of things. I make no distinction between lambs, saints or thieves.

Makes me feel better about all mi killinz.

gwj72 what a sad existence you must have

Makes me feel better about all mi killinz.

If you want to feel even better, just create a life each time you take one.
Become "life neutral". There are waay too many humanz about already, so I'd suggest pollinating wild flowers or breeding chicks (I've got 2 so I figure I'm in credit).

I think your scale reference is true but you need to reduce your scale a bit. Cosmically nothing not even our galaxy is significant but that does not mean individual lives are not significant....not least to themselves hence why so few folk /creatures end it all voluntarily.

gwj72 what a sad existence you must have

Bit harsh. The guy has his outlook on life, and I am sure he not the only one who thinks like that.

gwj72 what a sad existence you must have

How so?
I don't feel : (
I Feel quite : ) today.

@JY - Life is significant for sure. Especially until such a time as we know how widespread it is in the universe (if it really is ubiquitous then it becomes less so for sure).

Individual lifes are significant only on a macro scale. So yes my own life is important to me - although not the most important as it happens. I'd give mine up for someone. And I wouldn't expect it to matter to you.

[quote="junkyard"]so you value your things above life, your moral compass is as broken as the thief's.

Let me get this straight 😕 4 men with balaclavas break into your house in the dead of night and you will automatically assume theyre after your possessions and not there to rape and/or murder your family 😕

What a rose tinted world you exist in 🙄

pitduck can you clarify the comment as I dont understand it.

i was going for high horse or ivory tower personally but it was not clear.
In a discussion it is usually better to ask me what I think.
I value lives above possessions.
I would assume anyone in my house was after my possessions rather than to rape/murder my entire family [ I think burglary is slightly more common than family rape/murder]. I think facts will back up here so I am not sure why you think this is rose tinted.
i would defend myself and family I am less sure what I would do about things tbh.
A number on here seem to think if someone enters your property you can kill them or do as you please I dont agree though you can defend yourself.
I dont keep a weapon by my bed there are some kali sticks in there[and some forks oddly] I would probably have hold of them I may show some skill to deter them but I am less sure I would attack unless they come at me tbh.

I imagine that a burglar will usually be a lot more alert than a sleeping houseowner and would often be gone before a confrontation occurs..

that leaves you with a different type of intruder.. one that must be assumed to be extremely hostile and unpredictable..

Both times that I have encountered an intruder in my home I have ended up being the victim of a vicious assault.. If I found myself in a position to dominate the situation should it arise again I would not hesitate to do so.. Although initially I would try absolutely everything in my power to avoid resorting to violence..

I think of my home as a place where I and my family should feel secure and at peace and [i]that[/i] security is sacred.. anyone entering anothers home without permission is breaking that sacrament and must understand that they may have to face the consequences..

Stand outside someone's house one night and really think about the line you would be about to cross if you were to force entry..

never thought of that and you have a point as they have not chosen flight have they.