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Now, can you demonstrate how the Euro has been a success?
Over to you, I give you the floor.
Yes - simple - its an adopted currency for a huge trading block, it has held its value well without intervention, its stable, there are low interest rates. It has meant much simple cross border trading with massive savings.
Seems successful to me
I am still awaiting something concrete not assertions from the people who claim it has failed and is a gamble or experiment.
Are the current economic difficulties in Europe because of the Euro? I don't think so, but am happy to be persuaded.
THIS
It's too simplistic to blame everything in europe on the Euro.
I could just go repeating myself above if you like....aims v results.
Will you do that for capitalism and the banking setor as well - again too simplistic- everywhere in the west is "failing" -its not really capitalism is cyclical and for every boom there will be a bust so its working as normal.
Various countries celebrating the resounding success of the Euro recently
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it has held its value well
Jeezuz Jeremy....thats not a good thing if you are an uncompetitive exporter.....is it?
there are low interest rates
Erm lets look at those interest rates again....
Benchmark 10yr Government Bond Yields
UK 2.2%
France 3.34%
Germany 1.78%
Italy 6.61%
Spain 5.92%
Sweden 1.63%
Greece 25.39%
Portugal 10.9%
Ireland 8.86%
I suspect Binners thats economic failure in those countries coupled with austerity policies. Not a lot to do with the euro as its exactly the same here and we are not in the euro
Cause and effect my friend
Mcboo - and that means the euro has failed how?
Did the £ fail on black wednesday? Oh no - it can't have done - its still here all those years later.
Binners - but we are in the same sort of situation and are not in the euro
You think we're in the same situation as Greece? Then you really are deluding yourself. 😯
You halved your salary recently?
Chief.....you said the Euro has delivered low interest rates. My apologies for pointing out that was pure fantasy.
yes binners what about in the uk and the protests here - why when we are not in the Euro- I dont see the cause and effect you claim except for capitalism tbh
A couple of hippies putting some tents up outside a big church isn't really this though, is it?
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Mcboo - euro interest rates are low - government debt is not the same as euro interest rates. Have a look at euro interest rates
try again - got any concrete proof of the euro failing?
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Did the £ fail on black wednesday? Oh no - it can't have done - its still here all those years later.
I'm starting to think you dont really believe your own argument. We left the ERM, let the currency devalue and moved quickly into serious economic growth right through the 1990s.
Are you trying to make my point for me on purpose?
I accept that the continentals are far better at violent protest/direct action than we are but this hardly negates the point I am making.
mcboo- the £ did not fail - its still here today. 🙄 We are not using dollars or Euros
Perhaps if you explained what a euro failure is ?
Have a look at the interest rates in the graph above?
Jeremy
Seriously
Have look at your chart.
Those are central bank base rates.
For overnight lending.
Italy sold 5yr bonds this morning at 6.3%
You have to wonder if he ever gets to a point on a thread where EVERYONE is disagreeing and thinks 'nah, they're ALL wrong...'
McBoo you seem to be relating two things [ black Wednesday and growth] that are not necessarily causal [ like the euro and economic downturn knackerd capitalism].
Should we devalue now to help us all out?
PS your "serious" economic growth was 1 % of GDP and the same as the 80's growth so that just hyperbole or over egging the pudding if you prefer.
I think you're missing the point here though. The biggest failure of the whole Euro project isn't economic - though that's a big enough car crash!
The biggest failure has been in the sidelining of Democracy. Essentially the Greeks and the Italians, and other countries to a lesser degree, have effectively been [b]told[/b] by 'the Markets' that elected representative government is a luxury they can no longer afford. And if they do insist on it, then they will be punished severely for their impudence with effective bankruptcy. With the associated unemployment, collapse of living standards etc that that entails.
The Euro project was always fundamentally undemocratic. The degree to which that is now the case is staggering though
Can you really honestly think that [i]ANYONE[/i] who originally conceived the Euro project - and I do believe it was conceived for the right reasons - is presently sat back thinking 'this is all going great! We've furthered the democratic and economic aims of an entire continent. Lets crack open the champagne, eh?
PS your "serious" economic growth was 1 % of GDP and the same as the 80's growth so that just either hyperbole or wrong.
See those squibbles averaging 3.35% between 1992 and 2000?
mcboo- yes I have given you the Euro interest rates since its creation - until the last two years consistently lower than the £ now slightly higher.
Italian government debt is not the same as euro interest rates.
Now - do you have any actual concrete reason to way the euro is a failed experiment - cos what I see it is a reality not an experiment and no failure yet. I can still go and buy Euros and they are not devaluing
so where is the sign of failure OF THE EURO?
Should we devalue now to help us all out?
Bit late. We've been devaluing our way out of trouble for 3yrs.
Binners _) I agree with you on that but it is no change. See black wednesday
sory i misread the scale [ i had kink that did it quarterly but did not post that hence the error] but i assume you see them before it as well.
You have not made the point that leaving ERM was causal and growth before and after was roughly the same- you are cherry picking just one factor to support your argument. It is just not that simple and growth rates were comparable for the periods before and after so it is not accurate to describe post erm growth as serious as it was just a return to the norm
mcboo- yes I have given you the Euro interest rates since its creation - until the last two years consistently lower than the £ now slightly higher.
Yes I know what you did. I just have no idea why you did it.
Italian government debt is not the same as euro interest rates.
I know. Thats the problem. Again, I don't know why you point that out unless you were trying to make my point for me.
I can still go and buy Euros and they are not devaluing
Nope. No idea what you're on about with that.
Now - do you have any actual concrete reason to way the euro is a failed experiment
Yes. Done that already. And you have tried to show that the Euro has been a success by pointing out that you dont know what the bond market is.
The Euro project was always fundamentally undemocratic. The degree to which that is now the case is staggering though
Not really, the European governments are all elected democratically, and they choose the people who run the euro. Of course that means that the richer and more populous parts of Europe have a greater say - but then the "tyranny of the majority" is a problem you get in all representative government, including the UK.
People in Spain are blaming the banks and the government for the current problems, I can't recall ever having heard anyone here complaining about the euro itself.
In Greece's case it may well be true that leaving the Euro would provide a solution to the current situation, but in the long-term they're going have to sort out their well-documented internal problems anyhow.
Mcboo - I said euro interst rates were low, you said they were not so I showed you they were. Then you tried to show that euro interest rates were high by using Italian debt trading as an example.
can yo please show me one concrete thing that says it has failed?
Its still there, still being traded, holds its value. thats seems like a fairly well functioning currency to me.
Where is the failure?
the European governments are all elected democratically
The current leaders of Greece and Italy haven't been democratically elected. They've effectively been imposed by Brussels.
Can someone else explain to him the difference between overnight ECB Base Rates and actual government bond yields. I've tried, he doesnt understand.
Oh I do understand Mcboo.
Euro interest rates are set by the ECB. Yo said euro interest rates are high - they are not.
Now - lets see the concrete evidence the Euro has failed please.
The current leaders of Greece and Italy haven't been democratically elected. They've effectively been imposed by Brussels.
Yes and no - noone forced the Greek and Italian governments into signing up for the currency in the first place, and if they had decided to withdraw from the currency they could have done so. They weighed up the consequences of doing so, and decided not to.
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Literal when it suits this thread. We are not likely to see euro notes fail to be euro notes. The implementation of a single currency has failed though, In that it would be easier to start again than fix the mess its in now.(not that thats likely.)
On that basis its has failed and as pointed out earlier the eurotypes are showing the true colours even more clearly.
Can someone else explain to him the difference between overnight ECB Base Rates and actual government bond yields. I've tried, he doesnt understand.
walk away mcboo, walk away.
You're arguing with a trained geriatric nurse about bond yields.
Is this really what you want to be doing with your life?
Literal when it suits this thread. We are not likely to see euro notes fail to be euro notes. The implementation of a single currency has failed though, In that it would be easier to start again than fix the mess its in now.(not that thats likely.)On that basis its has failed and as pointed out earlier the eurotypes are showing the true colours even more clearly.
It hasn't failed yet. It may well do so, there's certainly a serious risk of it happening, but it hasn't yet. Arguing that the implementation has failed is a little disingenuous, too - all currencies have adapted to new circumstances, witness the pound on Black Wednesday.
walk away mcboo, walk away
........ ➡
does all this mean that it will be cheaper to get away to the continent next summer ?
😀You're arguing with a trained geriatric nurse about bond yields.
Is this really what you want to be doing with your life?
Stoner - I said euro interest rates are low - mcboo said they are not so I pointed out the actual numbers of the ECB rates. You know - the rates the ECB charge if i want to borrow some euros
Nothing to do with bonds.
I note that for all the bluster no one has actually come up with a single shred of evidence that the euro has failed - indeed they cannot as I can still buy them and they remain expensive!
So mcboo - your last chance - please show me how / why / when / where the euro has failed.
Yes, but the continent will be a smouldering wasteland covered in the fine ash of burnt euro notes.does all this mean that it will be cheaper to get away to the continent next summer ?
TJ, the 'Euro interest rate' you refer to is the ECB 'main refinancing rate'. This is the minimum rate paid by banks to the ECB when acting in its capacity of 'lender of last resort'. The ECB cannot lend to eurozone governments (hence the EFSF), and even in its current bond market intervention it cannot purchase on the primary markets. Neither governments nor individuals can borrow at the ECB rate. That's why the PIIGS are f**ed.
he "knows" that choron. But he thinks he's being terribly smart deliberately misunderstanding the statement that real euro rates have not actually been that low.
choron - thst may well be true but is nothing to do with the point. So lets say you have a mortgage in euros - do you pay a rate based on the ECB rate or a rate based upon what buying italian debt costs?
I am still waiting to see this evidence of the "fact" that the euro is a "failed experiment"
Stoner - no deliberate misunderstanding from me at all. REal euro rates have been low - and individual in Germany could borrow euros cheaper than i could borrow £ until teh last couple of years.