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[quote=v8ninety ]The scary thing is, this is the stuff that wars are made from. Countries backed into a corner with all reasonable options removed and an angry, impoverished populace. Europe is not in a good place at all right now.
I posted this on an earlier thread:
[quote=aracer ]
footflaps » The Euro project was never about economics it was a Political project driven by a fear of another WWII in Europe.
... (though the current situation isn't exactly providing the best platform for sustained peace - is anybody involved paying any attention to history here regarding the required conditions for war?) ...
Now I've not been following that closely, but you're going to have to explain that!
Come on Mols. Did you miss the bit with the German politicions openly advocating forcing 'Regime Change' in Athens.
Not very democratic that really, is it?
Maybe this link was already posted, but I think it covers the autocratic bit fairly comprehensively
http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/080715/we-underestimated-their-power-greek-government-insider-lifts-lid-five-months-humiliation-and-blackm?page_article=4
From that link the Greek government must have been really mad or stupid or both to think [i]We went to a war thinking we had the same weapons as them.[/i]
It was more like a 9 mm vs a H-Bomb.
As I said before, I think they naively believed that the EU would listen to reason. However, it is now clear to them and to everyone else that it is a vicious profoundly undemocratic institution. This toothpaste won't go back into the tube.
Listen to reason!!! You mean continue dumping cash into a broken economy hoping this time will be different to the last. Everyone has their part to play in cooperative coexistance, I'm sure the EU have made mistakes but it's generally to Greeks who've been in denial.
IMO, the larger the electorate gets the more it becomes blindingly obvious it becomes that Democracy can't work on that scale. It barely works on a UK level.
Got a sensible less bad alternative or is it you just didn't vote Tory in the election so now consider the concept of democracy is flawed cos you didn't get your way.
IMO, the larger the electorate gets the more it becomes blindingly obvious it becomes that Democracy can't work on that scale. It barely works on a UK level.
It's called diversity of views and can be healthy for a democracy. What system of government would you suggest for India, Brazil or USA?
Of course life would be easier if all of a small electorate shared the same opinion, but what a narrow insular world they may share.
I hope some deal can be done, but rather than it being Germany forcing it's wish on Greece, Greece will be reliant on the good will and money of smaller and poorer EU nations such as Slovakia and Latvia. Even Finlands exposure to Greek debt amounts to 10% of it's national budget.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/germany-greek-pain-debt-relief-grexit
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/business/dealbook/the-hard-line-on-greece.html?_r=1
Compulsory reading for anyone interested in this topic
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-greece-the-eu-countries-that-reject-a-new-athens-bailout ]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-greece-the-eu-countries-that-reject-a-new-athens-bailout[/url]
Also essential reading. Not all the creditors are flush with cash.
athgray - Member
It's really not worth reading.
athgray - Member
IMO, the larger the electorate gets the more it becomes blindingly obvious it becomes that Democracy can't work on that scale. It barely works on a UK level.
It's called diversity of views and can be healthy for a democracy. What system of government would you suggest for India, Brazil or USA?
india, brazil and the usa, all countries riddlied with poverty, you're not disproving my point with those examples.
Seosamh. Perhaps you should speak to the people of these countries and ask if they would prefer a different system of governance. Might be the last democratic choice they make. Perhaps the Chinese system may eradicate poverty? They could seek guidance from other failed reasonably populace democracies such as Germany, France, Australia or Canada on how not to do it.
It is a shame you have such a low opinion of democracy. I hope a national population of 5,000,000 is not deemed too large in your opinion to be worthy of democracy. 😉
I don't have a low opinion of democracy at all. I just don't think corporate democracy is democracy.
Show me a system that isn't weighted towards the few and I'll vote for it tomorrow regardless of size. But as we are seeing quite clearly, that's not what the EU or the UK is.
And don't think the UK is immune from what's happening to greece, same thing is happening here, never ending deficit, and a debt we can never pay back ring any bells? Only difference is that the hawks haven't ****ed up the balance of that particular rob here like they did in Greece to make it blatantly obvious(yet) to the general populace.
Look at the UK, what choice do we have? It's between making the debt rise a bit slower (labour) or ramp it right up with the tories.
That is not democracy. Oh but wait, you get to tick a box every 5 years, must be democratic.
Btw I love how your UK is developing post ref. You know the one about about solidarity with the poor in Glasgow and Liverpool. Good one that...The budget fair shafted them both equally!
You must be proud. 😐
Never miss a cheap shot if you can think of one.
ernie_lynch - Member
Never miss a cheap shot if you can think of one.
It's not a cheap shot, it's a genuine question. What happened to it?
btw I wasn't the one who brought up the ref. I'm responding to his cheap shot.
Hint: tax credit savings go directly to the corporation tax giveaway.
Solidarity, old chap. 😐
Calm down seosamh. Never had you down as a euro sceptic. As I said, I hope a deal can be done, but compromise will be the order of the day. Greece is not only looking to Germany, but other nations within the EU with an equal vote but more at stake.
And don't think the UK is immune from what's happening to greece, same thing is happening here, never ending deficit,
Really? What level of deficit is Greece running and what level is the anti-austerity government proposing going forward? How does that compare with Austerity George?
Look at the UK, what choice do we have? It's between making the debt rise a bit slower (labour) or ramp it right up with the tories.
Now I know politics gets messy and we have just had an un-Tory budget, but are you sure thats right?!? So Austeriy George is ramping up the deficit? He really does need to loose the austerity tag then!
And what is the link to...
That is not democracy. Oh but wait, you get to tick a box every 5 years, must be democratic.
we have just had an un-Tory budget
You mean the one which made the poor poorer ?
You can be disingenuous as hell at times thm. Or don't you know the difference between debt and deficit? 😆
Osborne has ramped up the debt much quicker than the previous labour gov.
Un tory budget. Haha haha haha haha! 😆
Thanks for your concern Joe, but I am aware of the difference between debt and deficit.
More confused by your attempt to suggest that the same thing is happening in Greece and the UK when it could hardly be further from the case.
Greece: anti-austerity party running and proposing a budget surplus (deflationary) at the height of a recession. Detb declining but debt to GFP rising due to collapse in deniminator.
UK: (misnamed) austerity party running a budget deficit (inflationary and more so than most of our peers). Debt rising but GDP also doing the same thing.
So other than we have parties doing the opposite of what most people think, where are the similarities? Chalk and feta to me.
You are correct on the UK debt trajectory - and how does this fit with the usual Tory narrative? Please enlighten the thickies like me....