I’m sure the way the tale has been spun (corrupt Greece) doesn’t help with that.

Not only that, the way the Greek government has behaved over the last 6 months is bizarre, they’ve gone out of their way to insult all their lenders. If Germany held a referendum on whether to just let Greece sink, I’d bet it would be 60% Yes, let Greece go **** itself.

The European project is still evolving.

Evolving?

😆

Nice choice of word. I’d say ‘imploding’ is presently more applicable.

Very interesting articla about how the single currency is destroying the entire ideal of Europe

Originally. Originally it was just a trading zone without any economic integration. Whilst the original threat has gone (though the current situation isn’t exactly providing the best platform for sustained peace – is anybody involved paying any attention to history here regarding the required conditions for war?) other political aims have taken over – to a large extent the EU is now an organisation which is mainly about sustaining and growing itself rather than anything which benefits individual people.

Though I’m sure it helped that the strongest and largest countries involved benefited from the economic side effects.

Not only that, the way the Greek government has behaved over the last 6 months is bizarre

Not really bizarre – Tsipras had to keep the Left Platform element in Syriza on board. Plus they have been treated appallingly by the troika and its various hangers on, and vilified in the press in every country of the EU, with little nobodies coming out of the woodwork to give their 2 cents.

to a large extent the EU is now an organisation which is mainly about sustaining and growing itself Germany

FTFY

Nice choice of word. I’d say ‘imploding’ is presently more applicable.

No journey is ever straight forward though, you always have setbacks. I’m not defending the Euro by any means, but I really don’t see this as a nail in the coffin, more like a puncture. They’ll patch it up and carry on and in 5 years everyone will be glad they can holiday in Greece for £7.50 as it will return to being a 2nd world country with a 3rd world country government and some nice sunny islands in the Med.

Not really bizarre – Tsipras had to keep the Left Platform element in Syriza on board.

Unless of course you need the very people you’re insulting to give you money to stop you staving or diabetics dropping dead in their thousands as you’ve run out of insulin.

Unless of course you need the very people you’re insulting to give you money to stop you staving or diabetics dropping dead in their thousands as you’ve run out of insulin.

I guess it never occurred to the Greeks that their lenders would literally sacrifice lives just because they didn’t like being called names. Is that really the calibre of people we’re dealing with?

binners – Member
Irrisponsible lending.

Aye, well, that depends on how you look at it. Are you the one that’s chasing for the loans? Or are you the one that’s benefited from the loans to Greece, and have now transferred your money out of the country? Or are you the masses left in Greece to looking at a massive bill.

Guess it depends on where you are on that (very simplistic)chain how irresponsible the lending looks.

That 39% voted to go with what the banks wanted tells a story, imo.

Greece is just an extreme version of what’s happening all over Europe i reckon, debt transfer. It’s just a battle now for who foots the bill, and I guess we all know ultimately who that will be.

Is that really the calibre of people we’re dealing with?

Did you mean the Greek government who is happy to sacrifice lives to prove a point / save their reputation?

Most of the large payouts were from the US Treasury, so nothing to do with Europe.

eer –selective memory footflapper- uk taxpayers, ie us had no choice did we-banks carry on as if nowt has happened –but of course its in all Their intersts for people to swallow that line –there is no alternative to the market, hogwash–its a con trick -banks breed off debt !

class

eer –selective memory footflapper-

No, we bailed out the UK banks, but the US Treasury spent far far more bailing out US banks with absolutely no strings attached.

footflaps – Member
Most of the large payouts were from the US Treasury, so nothing to do with Europe.

They set up ‘extraordinary accounting controls’ and then printed stacks of cash, IIRC. Money from thin air.

And it was nothing to do with Europe, this Global crash?

banks breed off debt !

True, that is one of their main functions.

The Euro elite need to wake up fast to the simple fact that fiscal stabilisation is a critical part of a currency union especially in combatting the loss of FX flexibility. Fiscal risks HAVE to be shared across the union otherwise it is doomed to failure.

Did you mean the Greek government who is happy to sacrifice lives to prove a point / save their reputation?

You’ve got that a bit mixed up. It’s not the Greeks who turned off the money taps and prevent the purchase of insulin, it’s the EU intent on showing who’s the boss.

footflaps – Member
Most of the large payouts were from the US Treasury, so nothing to do with Europe.

They set up ‘extraordinary accounting controls’ and then printed stacks of cash, IIRC. Money from thin air.

And it was nothing to do with Europe, this Global crash?

The OP on the bailouts was inferring that given the banks were given loads of cash why moan about giving loads of cash to Greece. My point was that most of the cash given to banks came from the US Treasury who doesn’t consider paying for Greek’s early retirement a primary objective.

My point was that most of the cash given to banks came from the US Treasury who doesn’t consider paying for Greek’s early retirement a primary objective.

Only the American banks, ff.

All I’m trying to say, ff, is: lets apply the same rules here as we did for the banks when they came to us, cap in hand.

To do anything else is hypocritical at best, callous at worst.

You’ve got that a bit mixed up. It’s not the Greeks who turned off the money taps and prevent the purchase of insulin, it’s the EU intent on showing who’s the boss.

The Greek government chose to play brinkmanship with the Troika. They didn’t have to, it was their choice. They put their egos before the peoples well being. Holding a gun to their own head and saying ‘give me more money or I’ll shoot’ is a very unusual negotiating tactic. All the EU have said is ‘have a few days to think about it’.

But the EZ have been pouring money into the Greek banks to keep them afloat. Problem as we all know is the Greeks can’t print their own money, so are reliant on the EZ.

…..with little to no requirement for them to change business practices so far:

That isn’t true, see the new FCA rules coming in 2019 requiring ring fencing of high street from investment arms of the banks.

We live in a world of multinationals. I doubt trying to pin this down to a country is worth the effort.

dragon – Member

That isn’t true, see the new FCA rules coming in 2019

My point exactly 🙂

Crisis was, what, 2008, ’09? 10 years without reform? You couldn’t make this up!

All I’m trying to say, ff, is: lets apply the same rules here as we did for the banks when they came to us, cap in hand.

To do anything else is hypocritical at best, callous at worst.

Except they are totally different scenarios. The 2008 crash came out of nowhere and in a panic the banks were recapitalised at the tax payers expense in a matter of days fearing a global banking meltdown (a bit like Greece now, but in every western economy at the same time).

The Greek problem has been a long time coming and they’ve had plenty of opportunity to try and do something about it. Every reforming commitment they have made they failed to implement. Thus the ECB started QE which effectively isolates the Greek tragedy from the rest of Europe. If Greece implodes Portugal, Ireland and Spain will be fine, the ECB will just buy their bonds. This is just one country, who expects every else to take the blame for their profligate spending and then carry on giving them free money.

The Greek government chose to play brinkmanship with the Troika

In fact they didn’t – they simply stated what is in fact clear – that the situation is untenable. The rest is the thrashing of the tail of the wounded lion.

Had to post this:

“He came from Greece, he had a thirst for knowledge…”

“…I said pretend you’ve got no money, he just laughed and said oh you’re so funny.”

😆

(from The Poke)

The 2008 crash came out of nowhere

😉

codybrennan – Member

The 2008 crash came out of nowhere

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don’t recall you shorting all those stocks and making a killing from it?

Crisis was, what, 2008, ’09? 10 years without reform? You couldn’t make this up!

Again not true for instance Basel III rules on capital, but don’t let that get in the way of believing what’s written on Facebook.

This thread is rather similar the the scenario as it’s bening played out in the news: determined side-taking, over-simplification and blaming everyone else.

Let’s face it, the component parts of this issue are all out there for everyone to see. And, if we really want a condensed version: politics, money, power, hands in the till.

Crisis was, what, 2008, ’09? 10 years without reform? You couldn’t make this up!

Indeed, so as Dragon pointed out, good job that this is not the case.

rudebwoy – Member

Most of the large payouts were from the US Treasury, so nothing to do with Europe.

eer –selective memory footflapper- uk taxpayers, ie us had no choice did we-banks carry on as if nowt has happened –but of course its in all Their intersts for people to swallow that line –there is no alternative to the market, hogwash–its a con trick -banks breed off debt !

All I’m trying to say, ff, is: lets apply the same rules here as we did for the banks when they came to us, cap in hand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehman_Brothers

We’ve (well the EU/Germany) done exactly the same this time. The debt was held by banks, the banks have the publics assets so weren’t allowed to fail, thus they were bailed out to protect the publics savings. Where the banks had no “high street” operations they weren’t bailed out. Greece hasn’t been able to afford it’s repayments for years hence all these bailouts which have effectively transferred the loans form banks to the ECB.

There is no easy way out for them, money can’t continue to be thrown into Greece, that’ll lead to inflation/devaluation of the Euro, if Greece collapses that’ll lead to inflation/devaluation of the Euro.
Presumably some clever fininacial wizard at the ECB has now worked out that even if Greece defaults it won’t completely ruin everything around it any more than continuing to print money to give them will do and the bailouts can stop.

You’ve got that a bit mixed up. It’s not the Greeks who turned off the money taps and prevent the purchase of insulin, it’s the EU intent on showing who’s the boss.

So the Greek government has nothing to do with the problems in their country? At what point do they have to start taking some responsibility for their actions?

So the Greek government has nothing to do with the problems in their country? At what point do they have to start taking some responsibility for their actions?

Is that the new finance minister? Might make more sense than the last one.

debts have and can be written off when it suits–err germany was forgiven all its debts so that it didn’t go ‘communist’—-the present greek govt were elected as a result of incompetence/corruption of the previous regimes–shold they be held responsible for all their actions ?

the wealthy oligarchs of greece -the shipping dynasties are unaffected by any of this, just like camerons friends here when the wind blows cold for ordinary people ,so until Syriza find a way of making them types pay , they will always have this problem of wealth distribution -but at least they are showing that it is possible to do things other than by bankers blackmail..

So the Greek government has nothing to do with the problems in their country? At what point do they have to start taking some responsibility for their actions?

I think the answer is never, they just plan on blaming Germany for the rest of eternity.

Presumably none of this is at all the fault of Germany then?

If you were running a bank and somebody came in to ask for a personal loan, you asked them what for and they replied ‘to pay my bills for the next year’ would you lend it them?

Oh… hang on a minute…. thats not just Greece. I’ve inadvertently just summarised the problem with every single western, neo-liberal, capitalist economy, haven’t I?

Sorry 😳

Is that the new finance minister? Might make more sense than the last one.

Well, since he said at the first meeting what it took the IMF 5 months to catch up with, your comment seems a little misguided.

Schauble’s nicer twin ?