[Closed] The free movement of people in Europe

I suppose I have a slightly different view on this matter.

I am Dutch and have lived in the uk since 1997. I initially moved here to be with a now ex-boyfriend I met whilst on holiday in the uk (music festival, and he had lost his tent). To cut a long story short, ended up marrying my English driving instructor in 2000 and now have 2 sons age 13 and 11.

When I initially came here, there were 2 choices, for me to move to England or my ex to move to the Netherlands. Most important reason for us going for option 1?

...... The obvious one: I could speak English and he could not speak Dutch! Simple.....

I think that may be what makes the uk appealing, and it is something that is somehow never mentioned. A lot of people in Europe (and the rest of the world) speak English, now I am not an expert in history, but I'd say that has something to do with England's past actions......

We all would prefer to live somewhere where we can at least speak the language.

Simone

I'd say that has something to do with England's past actions......

I'd say it has something to do with the United States present actions.

I'd say it has something to do with the United States present actions.

LOL when in doubt blame the yanks.

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I think it had everything to do with us, considering the Americans are practically British.

Ernie, what language do they speak in the US?

...how did an English speaking US come to be?

etc etc....lots of people like to play down our funny little island but the spread of the English language has been remarkable.

*edit, that map is magnificent, gives me wood just looking at it!*

LOL when in doubt blame the yanks.

I didn't realise it was a blame game.

English became widely spoken in Europe as the United States's global influence increased and Britain's global influence diminished.

etc etc....lots of people like to play down our funny little island but the spread of the English language has been remarkable.

Remarkable in that it spread via copious amounts of gunpowder, violence and tea.

Don't worry I've solved it we all move to France it's larger than the UK. The French can have the south of England to live in.

Simone

The wily Dutch playing the long game,learning English ,moving to the UK years later,changing partners ,getting married, having children,all so you could claim our child benefit 😉

Tom_W1987 - Member

Still, if they are a net benefit it doesn't matter if a few of them are bringing their extended family along.

It does a bit- national benefit doesn't preclude local problems. Now a cynic might say we should be taking some of that national benefit and applying it to the local problems, but that it's easier and cheaper to just keep it all and let people blame immigrants locally.

"Fault" ? English became widely spoken in Europe as the United States global influence and Britain's global influence diminished.

I think you fail to recognise the influence of the rest of the British empires influence on Europe's collective decision to speak English, with our without American influence the go to language to trade with Asia would have been English. Thus this would have propelled the spread of the English language within Europe.

nick1962 - Member
A couple of Russian billionaires settling in luxury residences in Mayfair and paying some tax in the UK may offset the potential financial negative impact of the unplanned arrival of several hundred poorly educated,unskilled and in many cases benefit claiming Roma moving into an already deprived area of Glasgow.The effect on local services for Mayfair will probably be zero but for Glasgow the schools,social services and health services are put under intolerable strain.Throw in language and cultural differences, the rapid change in the demographic of the streets and the schools and and you can begin to understand why the resident local population in areas of high migration have concerns.It seems to them that they are the ones paying the highest cost of the EU open borders policy when it appears the London middle class get cheaper more reliable builders and degree level educated multilingual nannies.

Europe's collective decision to speak English

What collective decision ?

I think you fail to recognise that at the height of the British Empire very few people in Europe spoke English as their second language.

United States global influence is more likely to influence the popularity of English as a second language in Europe than "England's past actions".

Still, if you prefer to think it's all due to England's past actions, I can't see the harm in that.

Remarkable in that it spread via copious amounts of gunpowder, violence and tea.

Stop it you'll send me over the edge, those were the days eh?!...can we go back to that?, didnt the world just run in a better manner when we were in charge?...rule Britannia and all, being British is like winning life's lottery etc etc....the days of Empire, mmmm.

Tom_W1987 - Member
I edited that a bit, as what I really meant was "UKIP seems to represent to them, based on their own values".... before anyone thinks I'm confused about what UKIP actually stands for....because in reality UKIP is run by an ex-banker.

They don't know it, but they are almost on the same side as the anti-globalisation hippies.

When people of the wealth and importance of Warren Buffet (by no means the only example) say these things, they are not throwaway comments based on greed or envy - these people already has the wealth, so their main motivation (aside from political mischief, which we can't necessarily discount) must be to try to reduce the gaps in society.

In just about every mainstream policy and event you see - zero interest rate policy, globalisation, IPOs, wars - it is the elite that are best (if not exclusively) placed to benefit first and most.

The problem with it digga is that it's leading to a brand of right wing thought that we haven't seen since the early 20th century. 😆 😐 Globalization didn't really just benefit the elite though, it just didn't benefit the lower and middle classes of the west as much as they'd like (wanted to have their cake when it came to cheap goods etc but aren't happy with the side effects) - however it's benefited everyone else enormously.

When people of the wealth and importance of Warren Buffet

I think you missed the point a little, don't for a second think that Nigel Farrage really actually gives a shit about you. He's a populist playing a very clever game.

United States global influence is more likely to influence the popularity of English as a second language in Europe than "England's past actions".

Most of Asia spoke a good deal of English even in the early 20th century, most trade between Europe and Asia would have been conducted in English. Even without American involvement, the fact that India and China were big English speakers would have led to the development of English being the language of trade, certainly no one in Europe would have been trying to learn Hindi or Mandarin as they are fairly hard - Spanish could have been a contender perhaps. American tv shows probably propelled it along a bit.

Tom_W1987 - Member
The problem with it digga is that it's leading to a brand of right wing thought that we haven't seen since the early 20th century.

The general public are, as is so often the case (just look at PPI for example) their own worst enemy and tragically myopic where economics and finances are concerned, but there is more and when people like Buffet, Jim Rodgers and Ron Paul are saying all the dice are loaded in favour of the top fraction of a percentile, I have no reason to doubt this.

Freedom of employment within the EU made sense when the EU was small, it makes very little sense now.

Looking at historic statistics re immigration benefits makes little sense IMO as it fails to take into account the changing nature of the immigration and also these stats include many workers from outside the EU who have to apply for work visas and who generally are highly skilled (and thus paid) making a big contribution. What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner's post early in the thread).

but I'd say that has something to do with England's past actions......

It's unlikely the British Empire would have happened without the Dutch leading the way first.

Freedom of employment within the EU made sense when the EU was small, it makes very little sense now.

Looking at historic statistics re immigration benefits makes little sense IMO as it fails to take into account the changing nature of the immigration and also these stats include many workers from outside the EU who have to apply for work visas and who generally are highly skilled (and thus paid) making a big contribution. What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner's post early in the thread).

Ummm, thats exactly what the stats over the previous page took into account. At the end of the day we need lots more young people to stay afloat.

Not entirely a bad thing, insomuch as it might put a stop to some of the more ill-advised leftist experiments-at-the-public-expense, such as 'multiculturalism'

LOL. Yeah resorting to an ideology that left Europe in tatters will cure things! Vast swathes of UKIPers might not be outright KKK style racists but subconsciously they are fully blown fascists, who feel aggrieved by their own failings and circumstance and feel the need to find a scapegoat. Do you feel that multiculturalism has ruined your life personally?

Ron Paul

Ron Paul only dislikes illegal immigrants, however he'd like to see massive amounts of unskilled and skilled labour entering the US on temporary work permits. Personally, I think this is a bit rich.

jambalaya
What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner's post early in the thread).

Although outside UKIP propaganda and anecdote this does not stand up to scrutiny. Most studies show that the impact of migration on the UK labour market is insignificant on most measures. The impact in wages is mixed and in balance positive for overall wages not negative but with some pressure in low skilled wages. But this pales into insignificance when compared with other factors driving down low-skilled wages.

UKIP lives and breathes on mis information like this.

UKIP lives and breathes on mis information like this.

Or like [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/14/men-exploited-intimidated-migrant-workers-court ]this[/url] and [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/08/wisbech-migrant-workers-exploited-gangmasters-eastern-europe ]this ?[/url]

Freedom of employment within the EU made sense when the EU was small, it makes very little sense now.

Looking at historic statistics re immigration benefits makes little sense IMO as it fails to take into account the changing nature of the immigration and also these stats include many workers from outside the EU who have to apply for work visas and who generally are highly skilled (and thus paid) making a big contribution. What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner's post early in the thread).

What needs to be remembered is that immigrants from outside EU countries coming into the UK outstrip those from within the EU.

Lets see it for what it is. A right wing government driven by fear of UKIP splitting their vote, blaming those damn socialists in the EU and their "ideals", while perpetuating the myth that they are "un-elected".

What makes it even funnier, is we need copious amounts of immigration for economic growth, [u][b]IF[/b][/u] we continue down the economic path we have chosen. Being ultra capitalists, insisting on the free movement of virtually everything, yet trying to stem one of the items required for it to work=does not compute.

This will damage our economic prospects, just as leaving the EU will.

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What needs to be remembered is that immigrants from outside EU countries coming into the UK outstrip those from within the EU.

BTW is that actually true, do you have a link ? I know over 10 years since the Polish where admitted to the EU they have gone from no-where to the UK's number 2 nationality.

[url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/immigration-patterns-and-characteristics-of-non-uk-born-population-groups-in-england-and-wales/non-uk-born-census-populations-1951---2011---full-infographic.html ]Census InfoGraphic[/url]

Or like this and this ?

Journalism is a good substitute for an evidence based microeconomics paper that THM is hopefully basing his assertions on?

More non-EU citizens come to the UK than EU citizens. On average, since 2004 170,000 EU citizens have migrated to the UK each year, compared to an average of 295,000 from outside the EU.

[url= https://fullfact.org/immigration/net_migration_eu_nationals_uk-30857 ]Can be read here.[/url]

 

Thank's El bent. As the article says EU migration is rising as the EU expands. As the table I linked to from the census shows we still have large migration from Commonwealth countries like India, ****stan and Bangladesh but it's the incremental effect of uncontrolled immigration from the expanding EU which worries me

Tom, the vast majority of people don;t read economics papers, they make their mind up from their personal experiences. I think it's a mistake to think the changes in voting behaviour are to do with what people have read in the paper, most people don't read a paper or even listen to the news.

Tom_W1987 - Member
Do you feel that multiculturalism has ruined your life personally?

We're all the poorer for it. In the relentless pursuit of economic growth, quality of life has been sacrificed. We all, apart from the very, very rich, suffer the effects of an infrastructure that wasn't fit to cope with demand 20 years ago, let alone today.

The funny thing about this whole issue is how it confuses party politics and "normal" economic persuasions (to the extent that they exist beyond the rhetoric).

The only two academic studies that I have seen of CMDs net immigration stats point to the fact that, if successful, this would add to the tax burden. The NIESR version suggested that the impact would be "significantly" higher taxes. So we have slightly panicked Tories responding with policies that would increase the tax burden. Most bizarre....!

Ditto on public services - funded by taxation (the give away on this issue! ) - and immigration increases tax revenues (not the opposite) and on average (ignoring the BS headlines) immigrants are no heavier on demand but actually increase supply (NHS labour). Net, net immigration a positive not negative for public services.

Of course, averages ignore the impact at the individual level but we don't set policy to suit individuals. It's the net effect that matters more.

Another good FT article on all is today from Rachman which follows the Ganesh one yesterday/today. The French and the Brits arguing against two fundamental issues or required reduction in national sovereignty for Europe to work ie, the French and the budget and the Brits and our borders. Both represent major threats and challenges to Europe.

As the table I linked to from the census shows we still have large migration from Commonwealth countries like India, ****stan and Bangladesh but it's the incremental effect of uncontrolled immigration from the expanding EU which worries me

Eh? Migrants from India, ****stan etc, usually bring their families with them, how can this not be a concern for you?

And +1 on what THM said. There has been some very good articles on this in the less "drama Queen" type rags in the last few days.

@El Bent - at least there is some form of control, there are rules and criteria. Also on balance I would rather see people from Commonwealth countries

We're all the poorer for it. In the relentless pursuit of economic growth, quality of life has been sacrificed. We all, apart from the very, very rich, suffer the effects of an infrastructure that wasn't fit to cope with demand 20 years ago, let alone today.

They turn run down working class areas into looking like third world scenes simply because they are brown and that's what white people are used to seeing in slums on tv.

As we've seen, we've explained, we would all be a lot worse off if we had less immigrants.

It baffles me that in the face of figures that've been scientifically and independently collected, peer reviewed and generally proven to be right jambalaya can still be ignorant of the fact that immigration is, as a general rule, a good thing. Bigotry abounds!

I didn't quote that from Jamby, I reckon he opposes European immigration for slightly different reasons to Digga. Maybe.

Tom and munro, I'm against uncontrolled immigration from anywhere. Not biggotted at all, people are welcome to apply from anywhere and our laws on discrimination will ensure all applications are reviewed equally. I've lived and worked in other countries and would happily do so again but I'd expect to apply for a work visa. People should do the same here.

Tom_W1987 - Member
We're all the poorer for it. In the relentless pursuit of economic growth, quality of life has been sacrificed. We all, apart from the very, very rich, suffer the effects of an infrastructure that wasn't fit to cope with demand 20 years ago, let alone today.
They turn run down working class areas into looking like third world scenes simply because they are brown and that's what white people are used to seeing in slums on tv.

As we've seen, we've explained, we would all be a lot worse off if we had less immigrants

Furthermore, in many places, locals whose families have lived in communities for generations have sided with more recent immigrants in their criticism of immigration policy and the downward spiral of filth and backwardness experienced.

Furthermore, in [s]many[/s] a couple of places places, locals whose families have lived in communities for generations have sided with more recent immigrants in their criticism of immigration policy and the downward spiral of [s]filth and backwardness experienced.[/s] ethnic minorities that they historically dislike

It baffles me that in the face of figures that've been scientifically and independently collected, peer reviewed and generally proven to be right jambalaya can still be ignorant of the fact that immigration is, as a general rule, a good thing.

It might be good for GDP but not necessarily good for every person esp those with no / low skills who will see downward pay trends....

It might be good for GDP but not necessarily good for every person esp those with no / low skills who will see downward pay trends....

Oh well.

Social darwinism and all that, that tenant of right wing ideology. 😆

Well, maybe they should move to Poland. Sounds like there'll be some gaps in the low-end labour market there. They are free to do so, thanks to the excellent free-movement policy the EU has so if you can't find a job where you are then you can move elsewhere.

[/facetious]

Also,

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So Tom_W1987 this is not a problem in your high-handed opinion? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24949347

Should all these locals put up and shut up? Are both Labour and the Lib Dems wrong to be addressing this?

In my opinion, if you let enough desperately poor, badly educated people - from whatever background - into any area, within a welfare-sate type economy, you will see a negative effect on that area and the lives of those in and around the place. It is very very difficult to extrapolate any economic cost or benefit to the exercise, but the downside in terms of quality of life is pretty straightforward, as is the potential for civil unrest.

Problem is these "you're shit" people live here and we have to consider them part of society (as they are), so just saying 'lump it scum bags' isn't going to work long term (unless you plan to round them all up and dump them on the Isle of White and then nuke the place).

I lived in Sheffield when that happened and as far as I could tell there wasn't any issue, it was media hysteria.

...You're shit

What rubbish! No idea on the impact but agents sort out the contacts, English isn't a rare skill - I had some Poles (a cleaner and a builder) living with me around 10 years ago who could speak fine. Money? They had some.

Unfortunately those Poles were kicked out of the country for stealing stuff but I'm sure most are fine!