Get a grip, people manage to get by in population dense places like Hong Kong. Centralised population centres with strong economies and good public transport infrastructure are the future. As to some of the other posts from users on here abhorring big cities, just because some of you don't like the idea or are privileged enough to be able to afford to live outside large cities doesn't mean to say that these changes shouldn't take place.
Were you ever employed as a Stalinist speechwriter in the 1930s? You'd have been able to dream up an endless number of New Economic Plans.
Basically, you are saying - this is how I think it should be. And sod you if you disagree.
It seems a growing majority of the population standing up against mass immigration, both in traditional Labour heartlands as well as conservative ones.
Not everyone who disagrees with you has been brainwashed by the Daily Mail.
Were you ever employed as a Stalinist speechwriter in the 1930s? You'd have been able to dream up an endless number of New Economic Plans.Basically, you are saying - this is how I think it should be. And sod you if you disagree.
Nope, industry will see to it that this is what happens. Industry and business needs large centralised cities and will need it even more when personal cars and long commutes become less viable.
Real right wing pro industry policies would make your brain implode.
The people who seem to support anti-immigration policies ......
Except that being opposed to an open door policy does not automatically dictate that you "support anti-immigration policies". Despite the claims of waffling guardian readers.
The open door policy only applies to EU countries and nowhere else. The UK has plenty of immigrants entering from countries outside the EU. There is nothing wrong with that.
So why aren't waffling guardian readers up in arms about no open door policy with regards to immigrants from the rest of the world, why only Europeans ? Sounds racist to me, to make a much banded about allegation.
So why aren't waffling guardian readers up in arms about no open door policy with regards to immigrants from the rest of the world, why only Europeans ? Sounds racist to me, to make a much banded about allegation.
I would love to see a borderless market driven new world order, a lot of Guardian readers wouldn't though for reasons that are not to dissimilar to UKIPers. Balls to all of them.
Lot of young struggling to buy a home might not be too excited by that idea.
Build more houses then. Lots of big futuristic towers Hong Kong style.
Tom_W1987 - MemberI would love to see a borderless market driven new world order
I'm fairly sure you've argued quite passionately on here against the free movement of Palestinians into Palestine, have you had a change of heart ?
I'm fairly sure you've argued quite passionately on here against the free movement of Palestinians into Palestine, have you had a change of heart ?
I just like arguing sometimes for the sake of trying to defend whatever is the total opposite to what everyone else is saying.
Build more houses then
Not happening enough now so already struggling, no-one seems to know where to put them; maybe UK needs to become a big NYC with a green bit in the middle around the Peak District?
So why aren't waffling guardian readers up in arms about no open door policy with regards to immigrants from the rest of the world, why only Europeans ?
Because we do over half of our trade with the EU in a free trade market which depends on multinational Eu companies moving staff around.
Even as someone with a possible vested interest in global immigration I do not support an international open door policy. There just needs to be a reasonable middle ground and even that'll never happen because the majority of the voting public are misinformed bigots.
Who is it claiming that we live in a global economy?
.....our trade with the EU in a free trade market which depends on multinational Eu companies moving staff around.
😆 I had low expectations for this thread but suggesting that "multinational EU companies moving staff around" is what is behind the large number of EU migrants in the UK really is astonishing !
Fairly well off people in secure, professional jobs benefit as they don't face any new competition for work
Not in my line of work. Loads of foreigners applying for the same jobs as me. Not all of them European either for that matter.
Most people I meet in Oracle EBS world seem to be from India.
So why aren't waffling guardian readers up in arms about no open door policy with regards to immigrants from the rest of the world, why only Europeans ? Sounds racist to me, to make a much banded about allegation.
Well the economic arguments don't stack up quite so well. Immigrants from non EEA countries tend to be a significant net 'drain on resources'.
Immigrants from non EEA countries tend to be a significant net 'drain on resources'.
Is that a wind up or are you serious ? Can't tell.
I had low expectations for this thread but suggesting that "multinational EU companies moving staff around" is what is behind the large number of EU migrants in the UK really is astonishing
That isn't actually what I said. I explained why we have the policy, not why there is so much migration.
Is that a wind up or are you serious ? Can't tell.
Ernie, he is correct. EEA immigrants had a net contribution of £8.8bn. Non EEA immigrants a net contribution of -£6bn.
Yeah alright, I'm not going down that road.
The road of facts?
Where are the facts? Is nothing without a source.
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By 2011, non eea immigrants contributed more.
Recent immigrants certainly do...
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The lesson here is that the British are the biggest drain on Britain, probably because lots of them are old and unable to work.
Not happening enough now so already struggling, no-one seems to know where to put them; maybe UK needs to become a big NYC with a green bit in the middle around the Peak District?
Because no one has the guts to open up planning laws or encourage companies to turn London, Birmingham or Manchester into towering metropolises. We have pretty poor city planning in the UK and we could do a lot better before we had to start expanding cities outwards.
Mudshark, the facts I stated on this page are sourced in my link to the migration observatory (Oxford University) on Page 3.
Revenue/expenditure doesn't really do the job there because it only covers taxes paid, not total economic value added.
What's with this shite that if you want to be in EU you have to abide by the EU rules? As every bureaucrats know rules are there to be bent so what's this shite about non-negotiation eh?
FFS! Can't they (EU) remember that once there was a time in their previous generation or two that the entire EU nearly become a province of Germany/CCCP and to have German/Russian language as their national language?
🙄
Where are the facts? Is nothing without a source.
The link I already posted has the source:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25880373
I think I've got it.
If we turn this country into an isolated hateful bigotted intolerant backward fear driven loathsome shithole then none of the buggers will want to come in the first place!
It's actually about 13.1 million Brits living abroad, not the 5.5 million quoted in that video. So the immigration number is dwarfed even more.
Anyway
Free movement? You get nowt for free...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9756882/NHS-spends-11-million-on-interpreters.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16905491
Dunno which one to believe if either. Do we have more immigrants now than in 2012 & are immigrants in general 'paying their keep'?
It's actually about 13.1 million Brits living abroad, not the 5.5 million quoted in that video.
Why's that then? Does the weather have anything to do with it or are they spread more through eastern Europe/ middle east rather than Spain & France?
The Spanish government spend about 250m a year on British pensioners, despite insurance. At least most of our immigrants are of working age as opposed to being senile leeches.
I suspect not. As pointed out already, it isn't the fault of the EU, its all about Neo-liberal global capitalism. There is a certain irony to its evangelical free-market champions in the Tory Party, and UKIP, the right wing press etc, now rounding on this one particular element of the system they so love, as the cause of all our present woes
They don't really believe in anti-immigration policies, they are just pandering to their electorate who don't think about of have coherent political ideologies. The conservative electorate simply blame immigrants for their own shortcomings, an alibi is an easy and enticing psychological defence for failure. Left wing types tend to blame social problems for their own failings, basically they are two sides of the same coin.
Why's that then? Does the weather have anything to do with it or are they spread more through eastern Europe/ middle east rather than Spain & France?
Eh? They are spread all over the planet. We are a net contributor to the worlds immigration problems 😆
are immigrants in general 'paying their keep'?
Have you read the thread?
Yes, they ar .
Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a few of the UKIPing types on here are bordering on being right wing socialists. They tend to support a kind of patriarchal capitalism that is anti-neoliberal, anti-banker and anti-immigration, giving them a sense of security whilst still allowing them to hold affluent aspirations of wealth and success without feeling like they will be "persecuted" by government for doing well. It's a strange dichotomy but basically anything that is seen as supranational is bad, including business.
I think some of you will see where I am going with this.... 😆
UKIP represents a kind of patriarchal capitalism that is anti-neoliberal, anti-banker
😕
I edited that a bit, as what I really meant was "UKIP seems to represent to them, based on their own values".... before anyone thinks I'm confused about what UKIP actually stands for....because in reality UKIP is run by an ex-banker.
They don't know it, but they are almost on the same side as the anti-globalisation hippies.
A couple of Russian billionaires settling in luxury residences in Mayfair and paying some tax in the UK may offset the potential financial negative impact of the unplanned arrival of several hundred poorly educated,unskilled and in many cases benefit claiming Roma moving into an already deprived area of Glasgow.The effect on local services for Mayfair will probably be zero but for Glasgow the schools,social services and health services are put under intolerable strain.Throw in language and cultural differences, the rapid change in the demographic of the streets and the schools and and you can begin to understand why the resident local population in areas of high migration have concerns.It seems to them that they are the ones paying the highest cost of the EU open borders policy when it appears the London middle class get cheaper more reliable builders and degree level educated multilingual nannies.
I don't think we should be legitimising your average oiks frustrations, the biggest burden on the social and health services is all the old people....blaming your failings on old people isn't in vogue yet though. Maybe we'll get round to that once we've kicked out all the people we don't like and realise that made the situation worse.
30 percent of NHS spending is spent on people of 85+ years of age, 48 percent is spent on people of 75+ years of age.
I think the biggest burden on the NHS is all the old people...
And that's why,understandably, older people from some of the poorer parts of Eastern Europe have migrated to the UK ,usually following their families because they know they can get the health care they need and deserve,especially those from minorities persecuted and discriminated against in their own countries but nevertheless adding to the strain on the NHS.
And no I don't have a graph to show the numbers.
And no I don't have a graph to show the numbers.
LOL what a surprise. Do you understand that your assertion doesn't really hold with the fact that EEA immigrants are massive net contributors.
The lesson here is that the British are the biggest drain on Britain, probably because lots of them are old and unable to work.
...it's the elephant in the room nobody in power wants to talk about.
We have some mealy mouthed policies about working longer but really the whole system is borked.
If you're in full time education until your early 20s, then work from 21 to 60-ish the government will have 40-odd years of tax from you but what happened for the first 20-odd years?....who footed the bill?...parents pay for some of it but the government pays for a whole lot more....then after retiring people are living into their 80s and being supported by the government for 20-odd more years again, that's 40 years of work but also 40 years of not working....and it's the 20 years post retirement at the end that costs so much with medication, care costs, pensions etc etc.
We are living too long....and in our latter years our quality of life is poor, very very poor, there's nothing we can do about that....its just called ageing, an 80 year old frail body and confused mind is good for nothing....but we still pump meds, send carers round 4 times a day and push food into these people to keep them 'living'....most of the elderly i see havent left the house in years, the upstairs f their homes are redundant, they've been living downstairs in their front room with a triangle of existence between the bed, the armchair and the commode....nice.
Kill me before it gets to that stage.
That is the reality of the UK's demographic at the moment, for the first time in recorded history the over 60s now outnumber those under 16...that is frankly terrifying, there is no younger generation coming through to pay taxes and support it's elders....this is something else that needs clarifying as most people havent got a clue, your pension contributions arent for you, you are paying for the generation currently drawing a pension....when it's your turn the costs will be met by the generation behind you and so on and so forth....yes thats right, it is remarkably like a pyramid scheme isnt it?!....totally dependent on a larger generation coming through each time.
Here's another one, the over 85s are the fastest growing group in society...again, the reality of this is horrendous....of course it doesnt stop the government, the pharmaceutical companies and everybody else telling you that your retirement will be wonderful and you'll be riding your bike and walking the dogs, playing with the grandkids in your 80s etc etc.
You wont, you'll be a crippled, confused, malnourished, incontinent burden.
....now i've written that i can see why none of the major political players want to tackle the issue.
Yup, I'll blow my brains up a wall at a certain age unless transhumanism kicks off in a big way.
I like to think that we can solve our problems with diligence in the areas of science and technology, always keep moving forward, never back. Otherwise it's all more pointless than it already was and a little less fun.
Do you understand that your assertion doesn't really hold with the fact that EEA immigrants are massive net contributors.
Err... please read my earlier post.My point,which I thought was clear was not about the overall net contribution but the effect locally on the ground where it really matters for most people.I am all for the free movement of labour but unexpected, unplanned rapid influxes of migrants into some communties means there can be a shortfall of resources in that community.
What I think you meant is that they can't look after all these young hard working tax paying immigrants because the beds are all full of old people.... 😆
You did say this though
And that's why,understandably, older people from some of the poorer parts of Eastern Europe have migrated to the UK
The graphs I posted, in the absence of data on the age of EEA immigrants and their use of the NHS, likely don't support the notion that this is happening on any significant level.
The graphs I posted in the absence of data on the age of EEA immigrants and their use of the NHS, likely don't support the notion that this is happening on any significant level.
I don't doubt you or the overall figures.I do know that the extended families that moved into certain parts of the UK brought with them economically inactive older family members who have made no contribution to the treasury and are unlikely to ever do so.If you think we can't afford to support UK pensioners who paid into our welfare system throughout their working lives when they were working can we afford to import impoverished pensioners who have paid nothing here? Most UK pensioners who live abroad are putting UK pension money into local economies.No doubt there are pensioners from the more affluent parts of Europe who are residing in the UK and spending their money here.Any chance of a graph? 🙂
Still, if they are a net benefit it doesn't matter if a few of them are bringing their extended family along.
