[Closed] The F1 Thread...

The races go on for a lot longer than one hour.

I think Red Bull believe that their fuel flow sensors are correct and refused to comply with the instructions to turn it down just to comply with a badly calibrated or unreliable sensor provided by the FIA.

But all the other teams had no difficulty complying and certainly would not take Redbulls hand on heart saying we never went above the flowrate honest .

The Red Bull appeal appears to be built around the "known" inconsistency of the the FIA flow meter.

is the known inconsistency evident when the driver floors it to overtake? To disregard warnings doesn't really make any sense unless you have provable readings to back yourself up with. Back to the speeding thing, if your spedo was dodgy but a copper suggested you were going to fast would you continue or back off.

It seems quite harsh on red Bull

think they tried to swap out the dodgy FIA sensor and were told to swap it back

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112967

I don't think redbull would try and seek advantage on this. They are based near here and i'm told they re very keen on compliance

of course that doesn't mean that i think the appeal has to suceed

Overtake? I didn't see Daniel get close to overtaking. Not bothered about Red Bull but it is a shame for him. Seems such a nice guy too, none of that tedious Seb style hollerin' over the radio at the end.

Very pleased for Nico and also looking forward to a strong season from Williams.

All the info about the sensor being faulty in that article comes from Christian Horner, so I'd take that with a pinch of salt. I agree with Ricciardo bring a nice bloke though, it did seem a shame when they bumped him off the podium

If the FIA sensors are inconsistent as per Horner's allegations then isn't it a bit odd that RB were the only team who were caught out.

What are the chances of their cars being the only ones who end up with dodgy sensors - his comments make out that the sensors are fundamentally flawed.

Be interesting to see the outcome of the appeal but I can see it being a case of RB being told to FO.

They are based near here and i'm told they re very keen on compliance

you taking the piss? red bull aren't keen on compliance, they're keen on what they can get away with.

From what Horner said to

They had a faulty FIA sensor (FIA issue them to all the teams)
It was dodgy so FIA supplied another which failed
Original sensor refitted and data was officially offset to correct the earlier error.
RB team are arguing that the data from the fuel injectors shows that the fuel rate was correct.
My feeling is that is the all the teams are using the same sensors why aren't they all having problems (especially the Renault engined ones)?

there is a quote somewhere about F1 being the sport where creative rule bending is the norm and that it's more about the art of rule interpretation than anything else.

Roll on race 2, hopefully if a few more cars stay in the race we should have some more racing in the second half of the race. I was impressed by Buttons unassuming climb up there. If he can put it on the front half of the grid he might do well this year - the car seems to have the pace for that end of things.

F1 has always been about being "creative" with the regulations. But I don't think that's really any different to most sports.

Williams livery best on the grid, I kept getting confused between Merc and McLaren - so similar.

McLaren should have their title sponsor in place by next race.

Their performance in this race will certainly push their prices up

Horner will definitely only say what he wants you to hear but having said that no tech is foolproof and I'm sure RB know to the ml how much fuel they're using at any given point in a race. It's not as if DR was having to race anyone significantly so they needed to "cheat" so why would they?

Williams livery best on the grid

It's not as if DR was having to race anyone significantly so they needed to "cheat" so why would they?

Because it's in their DNA to take maximum advantage out of any opportunity - failed/dodgy fuel sensor gave them just such an opportunitu. As for not needing to race, Ricciardo was pushed hard by Magnesson and maybe would have lost 2nd with a lower engine mode - who knows?

Williams livery needs another decent sponsor on the sidepods before its complete, otherwise why not have the Martini roundels on there?

Speeder - Magnussen & Button weren't that far behind, so perhaps increasing the fuel flow was the only thing that stopped them from getting past?

Ricciardo was pushed hard by Magnesson and maybe would have lost 2nd with a lower engine mode - who knows?

There was a point when Magnussen was gaining on Ricciardo by half a second a lap, before Ricciardo managed to start pulling away again. That might have been when RB decided that the fuel sensor was playing up...

Can't see how Red Bull will get the decision overturned, otherwise every meeting will have one team or another claiming the sensor was playing up...

So, the cars are obviously a lot quieter.

Initially it was a bit off putting but by the end of the race I had kind of got used to it. Its quite cool being able to hear tyres squealing and the fans cheering.

What I didn't like was the obvious fuel management dictating the racing.

Hopefully this will improve as the season progresses and the teams understand the engines and the fuel a bit better

If there was an issue with the sensor then the FIA will fail it and go to the secondary monitoring system (presumably the teams own data)
The issue here is that the FIA did not fail it and told RB they had to amend the fuel flow rate to fall within the rate they were set.
You can bet that during the race RB tried to get the FIA to fail the sensor (probably the first time the FIA came to them with the issue) but they didn't. To then crack on using your own data is a level of arrogance that was always going to be punished. If they hadn't the FIA might as well shut up shop and leave the teams to it.
I now presume this is what Di Montezemolo was talking about when he mentioned "trickery"

The local organisers are kicking off about the noise (lack of) but it seems to be mostly about doing the deal for post 2015.

I'm hoping with more cars finishing (or making half distance) the fuel management should make for more close racing as people are on different strategies with some being able to go for it while others are having to conserve after making a few hot laps to try and make a run for it. Check in a safety car and then it should all be up for grabs.

The sound thing is interesting - I'm sure FOM TV could do some tweaking to increase the apparent volume for the world wide audience, but Bernie isn't a fan of these engines and guess who pulls the strings at FOM TV... conspiracy theory? Nah! 😉

Fuel management? IIRC a lot of the drivers were told that after the safety car they could push as hard as they liked & there's already talk of running <100kg of fuel for some races. JB certainly said he had no fuel restrictions at the end so perhaps McL's decision to run a different mode for KM was down to other factors - maybe cooling, maybe playing the long game on the engine, or maybe to increase ERS harvesting to give him the full beans for those last few laps?

The KB thing is down to the way that energy harvesting is worked out - IIRC it's something along the lines of it being measured every two laps so by taking it a bit easy beforehand (eg not using all the K energy to speed the car up) you can then do a couple of laps with more K than normal - basically a good way to make an overtake if you're stuck behind a car that you can keep up with without full K but can't overtake under normal 'engine' map - you charge the battery up more for a couple of laps then use it all to overtake on the next one. Or if not that one, on the one after when the car you're trying to overtake has used up all his K trying to keep ahead of you.

Apparently Melbourne is one of the toughest track to harvest Kers energy as there isn't a lot of heavy braking.

At Sepang they won't have the same issues.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112973

Red Bull was not the only team doubting the Formula 1 fuel flow sensors during the Australian Grand Prix, but its rivals knew they had to follow the FIA equipment.

Surely if accurate, this means there's no way their appeal will be accepted - the other teams would then appeal the race for having been unfairly impeded by following the FIA's figure even if they thought they were wrong, particularly as the rules seem fairly clear that the teams don't get to choose the flow rate if the manual method is used.

This does smack of arrogance by RB which is a real shame.

[url= http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/26666624 ]Great article[/url] by Andrew Benson, nice to see him being getting free reign to express an opinion rather just reporting the facts. Maybe they are trying to fill the hole left by Gary Anderson's departure? Also great to see a counterpoint to Ecclestone's latest rant.

Agree, that puts Mr. E's argument in its place.

I have a couple of questions about current F1 rules and I thought I'd try here rather than start a new thread

So yesterday my brother in law and I wrecked another family lunch yesterday with a technical discussion. (It didn't help that we had just done inflation and gravity waves)

It doesn't help that he actually really knows about combustion in engines.

Anyway he reckoned that having spoken to some one a Ferrari that the 100kg per hour was fairly irrelevant as the engines would knock if you exceeded that value any way

This contradicted my understanding which was that with no regulation on turbo boost pressure huge power was potentially available.

So I did a bit of googling and found that in the last turbo era teams were getting upto 850 hp at 10,500 rpm from 1500cc

But it looks like that they had to use some very specific fuels to achieve this without the engine knocking

So in 2014 F1 regulations

Is the fuel specified?

Is the compression ratio specified?

Thanks

PS apparently the new engines use late direct injection to avoid knock. But there is a limit to how late you can go and still have time for the fuel and air to mix

Yes, fuel is specified and essentially has to be pretty similar to pump fuel - not exotic mixes

Can't recall for sure on compression ratio but I do seem to recall that it is specified.

I've got a choice to make, watch the F1 Sunday morning or do the 30mile Skyride in Macclesfield 🙁

that's easy - ride then f1 on iplayer.

hora - Member
I've got a choice to make, watch the F1 Sunday morning or do the 30mile Skyride in Macclesfield

Haha! That's got to be weather dependant hasn't it?? The F1 will be on iPlayer if it's sunny...

So I did a bit of googling and found that in the last turbo era teams were getting upto 850 hp at 10,500 rpm from 1500cc

Back in the 80's turbo engines were using very specific exotic blends of toluene and benzene, god know what the octane rating was but it would have been well above 100. It would have to have been given that the engines were running 5+ bar of boost.

F1 fuel today is pretty similar to super unleaded, that's why the new turbo engines will get detonation if they run too much boost, so boost isn't restricted

(homer gurgle)......... last turbo era ............

i wonder if it well get to point where they start to run diesel powerplants (or indeed the rules are freed to allow diesel or petrol) combined with the electric?

I do know that the old BMW era turbo engines in qualifying trim were off the scale as far as power went. They didn't have a dyno that went that high 😯 😆 estimated 1500hp they only had to last 3 laps. Bonkers

Sorry Pondo didn't see your answer at least my figures are correct

I thought the BMW were kicking out a total of 1,500bhp, not 1,500bhp per litre so it would have been closer to 1,000 per litre.

Still impressive when you consider my old Integra Type R only managed 100 per litre but then again, that was non-turbo and lasted more than 3 laps...

By all accounts the 1.5l BMW blocks were the oldest highest mileage road blocks they could find to ensure they were as de-stressed as possible, and they were urinated on as there was something in the pee that helped the de-stressing process.

Must have been awesome things to try and drive with qualifying tyres!

Thanks folks.

I have to say that a turbo boost pressure limit might be easier to work with than a flow meter

You say that... I'm sure I remember stories of teams designing intake manifolds to put the pop-off valve in as low a pressure place as possible. Give em a rule and they'll do what they can to get round it. 🙂

Pre-ignition/detonation is not an issue with direct injection engines. Detonation is an issue if you induct a fuel air mixture prior to compressing it. With direct injection the fuel is only injected it at the point you want it to combust, and can be sprayed in after initial ignition as the piston is descending. That was the biggest technological leap forward that took Diesel engines out of the smelly, noisy, dirty pinging lazy lumps they were to today's smooth running and quiet engines.

So it could be feasible for the engines to run high boost pressures on normal octane fuel. Not sure how high boost pressures they're actually running. Downside to running too much boost is increased combustion temperatures ( therefore reducing engine durability) and heavier engines due to the higher stresses.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/26721387 ]Red Bull tantrum?[/url]

Downside to running too much boost is increased combustion temperatures ( therefore reducing engine durability)

Red Bull tantrum?

[img] [/img]

Governing body, the FIA, warned Red Bull in Australia that all teams had been told they must stick to the readings given by the official sensor.
Red Bull ignored the readings and ran the car according to readings given by their own measurements.

Reads very much like his toys have left the pram.... what a [bunch of] nobs. Good ferkin riddance if that's the way they see it.

Gotta be said, to say that one race after four years of dominance does not paint him in a positive light.

Gotta be said, to say that one race after four years of dominance does not paint him in a positive light.

My thoughts exactly

I can hardly see the FIA getting to fussed if red bull did decide to leave (not that it's in anyway a genuine threat, IMO) , they're hardly part of the sports heritage like ferrari or mclaren. I for one wouldn't miss them.

Reads very much like his toys have left the pram.... what a [bunch of] nobs. Good ferkin riddance if that's the way they see it.

+1

They came into the sport offering a fun, cool and a new way of operating. All they've done is proven that the likes of Ferrari, McLaren and Williams are the real heart of F1.

Looks like he is flexing his muscles so he can join the top table with the old boys. F1 would feel it if he pulled both his teams but someone else would buy them and the show will go on.

Bigger impact if the little silver satan goes away for a while. Imagine the power struggle without Bernie keeping order...

Pre-ignition/detonation is not an issue with direct injection engines. Detonation is an issue if you induct a fuel air mixture prior to compressing it. With direct injection the fuel is only injected it at the point you want it to combust, and can be sprayed in after initial ignition as the piston is descending. That was the biggest technological leap forward that took Diesel engines out of the smelly, noisy, dirty pinging lazy lumps they were to today's smooth running and quiet engines.

Apparently that's not true for a thing like an F1 engine

According to brother in law (and i will check) the problem is you still need time for mixing. 15,000 rpm is i think quite differnt to say 6,500 in a diesel.

The numbers are 15,000 rpm is 125 hz or 4 milliseconds to go round once. Or 90 degrees of rotation every millisecond. The problem is that if you inject late enough to avoid knock then you don't have enough time for fuel air mixing. This is probably made worse by the fact that you are trying to make max power from a certain rate of fuel delivery. Incomplete mixing will reduce effeciency

I myself wouldn't believe tha knock was an issue it but his academic field is combustion physics. His research method is filming flame propagation in engines as the run. Shell have just checked his research kitty another 3 million to do work on their fuels. So convincing him he is wrong won't be easy andto be honest its unlikely that he is wrong. But if you can come up with a convincing argument I'll give it a go

knocking also gets a mention in this renault press release

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/22/renault-energy-f1-2014-power-unit-official/

Anyone read race engine technology? They did a good article on f1 v8s, at 20000rpm it was basicly desieling because there isnt enough time for anything else.
This is why they now have the massive fuel pressures so that they can use small pulse widths direct injecting.

Modern desiels multi inject now, once to initiate combustion then again further round the stroke. Can see this adopted (if its not already) in f1.

People forget modern cars are operationaly more tchnical than the old v8s with variable valve timing direct injection etc, though they used advanced materials, coatings and production methods for race apllication.

pondo - Member
Gotta be said, to say that one race after four years of dominance does not paint him in a positive light.

They wouldn't have dominated last year if hadn't thrown a wobbly and got the tyres changed...

Getting the tyres changed was another example of muscle flexing.

The strong teams get the rules changed to show they were innovative, the weak get proved to have cheated, it will be an interesting face off.

Remember the flames in the Bematon pit which was caused by them cheating by interfering with the filler?
They were a weak team because they got fined even when they showed the fault had nothing to do with ey tinkering and the FIA introduced fire proofs for all in the pits

So, wet qualifying... Any predictions ?

Button

Should the safety car be a Toyota Prius these days? & not sound soooo sexy...

No qualifying today (my prediction), they have about 3 hours of daylight left at the moment
Or they may end up running Q3 tomorrow?

How good is this year's William's livery, so good to see Martini's colours back sponsoring top level motorsport.

Cheeky Nico 🙂

Yep Williams looks awesome and it's going well. I hope they can get closer to the top this season .....

Missed what he said

Here we go....

Missed what he said

Commented on Suzi Perry wearing a white top in a monsoon.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/26756573?SThisEM

I have say Lee wearing her lab stuff is hot...

Looks like the Beeb have got their F1 viewing demographic sussed then. 😉

Moving onto the actual event, I missed qualifying, so have just checked the grid list. Are RB still using their own method of fuel flow? Vettel seems very close in time, although by the looks of it, it was heaving down with rain and full wets.

Surprised not to see Button higher up, although something about him choosing inter's rather than everyone else with full wets.

I'm yet to be convinced as to how different this year will pan out to the last few years, would love to see Williams in amongst the front and for Hulkenburg to show his skills with some strong finishes this year.

Loved the Lotus tweets during P3

Anyone up and watching back home?

Groesjon or whatever his name is wins the prize for nonchalent arm crossing. Masa fastest arm crosser.

Webber Mk II ahead of finger pointer 🙂

Bugger, that didn't last long...

Shame for ricciardo

This race needs rain now

"Valterri is faster than you".

Bit of a kick in the balls

Good lad 😀

Looks like RedBull have found the "Ozzy spec" parts cupboard again.

+1 on Webber spec parts...

http://sniffpetrol.com/2014/03/24/red-bull-apologises-for-mark-spec-part/

And now a 10 place grid penalty for Bahrain - I reckon his mechanics are running a book on when he stops smiling...