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Is the e Berlingo the same drivetrain as the Corsa e? The Corsa e has grabby brakes compared to the Ioniq that I drive. It takes me a few miles to adjust to the Corsa e after driving my Ioniq.
I really wanted the eBerlingo to replace the diesel version we have...but almost 700 mile range to almost 180 miles wasn't acceptable. If the next version has a much improved range (would need to be close to 300 miles) then I'd be keen on it.
It would be ok if the range was really 180, but in mixed driving / autumn conditions it appears to be half that. Admittedly this was a 73 plate so older slightly smaller battery and I believe the new one is much more realistic about usable capacity. And unfortunately a heavier battery would mean very little payload on current weight limits.
Payload isn't an issue...2 or 3 bodies and 2 or 3 bikes plus kit inside...would be the longer wheelbase version I'd be looking at...but not for another 2 years as current ev goes back then.
Any of the resident Hyundai / Kia fans tried an EV3 yet?
Demo cars not due until early December according to my local dealer
Drove past what looked like an EV3 at the dealer yesterday - just checked their Facebook and it arrived on 11th Nov so looks like they are just starting to appear.
The eBerlingo payload thing was what I'd looked at for the short Multispace - kerb to gvw is 626kg. If they were to fit the 75kWh battery it would add 225kg so the remaining 401kg looks tight once you factor driver, passengers, bikes and luggage etc. Guess the XL is already rated to a higher gvw so they can probably change springs etc and re-homologate.
Thanks to those who listed their top five requirements for an EV. Very interesting. There were a few in there I hadn't considered and some things I've been obsessing over didn't figure at all.
It is interesting (to me at least) how hard I'm finding it to commit to purchasing an EV. I worked out the other day that over the last 30 years I have bought 9 cars (4 second hand and 5 new). We are a two-car household and (barring those that were written off in crashes) tend to keep a car for around 7 years and 150,000 miles or so, which might be part of the issue with an EV. It needs to be a car that I'd still be happy with in six years time and the technology is evolving quickly. But there is probably more to it than that.
Those 9 cars were all very simple purchases. It never took more than a week or two (and sometimes only a couple of days) to go from "think it's time to replace the car" to making the purchase. Draw up a shortlist of cars that suit our needs, see which ones can be had for the best price, job done. I don't really care about cars so I'm happy going for an unfashionable one that does the job if it can be had cheap. I've been seriously looking at EVs for a couple of months now though, but am no closer to pulling the trigger.
Cars are obviously not cheap but in the past there was always something on the car that made the driving experience significantly better than it had been in the old car. That may have been something as simple as the first car with a reversing camera, the first one with adaptive cruise control, the first that allowed for CarPlay etc but it was always clear that the new car would be better than the old one. But this time I can't help thinking that I'd be spending a lot of money for a worse experience.
I don't mean the obvious things about EV vs ICE. I understand the trade-offs and think I can make them work, but there are lots of other things putting me off:
Price of EV vs the ICE equivalent is hard to justify and wipes out most of the savings if you buy new with cash. The idea is obviously for the government to stimulate the shift through tax breaks that make EVs attractive to company car buyers and allow the car makers to charge a premium to pay for their investment. Far enough but that means a new car is not a sensible purchase for me and that already feels like a worse deal i.e. for the same money I can buy a shiny new ICE car or a second hand EV.
Range wouldn't be an issue most of the time but buying a car that would make certain journeys harder (even if they are rare) seems like a backwards step. For me the edge case is the Christmas trip from north-east Scotland to east anglia. So that's around 500 miles that we do in the winter (lower range) mostly on motorways (lower range) at the same time as the rest of the country (very busy stops). It's about 9 hours of driving and we usually do it in 11 hours total (has been as short as 10 on a few occasions). It might be a rare case, but if the car pushed that journey beyond 12 hours I'd be regretting my purchase. More importantly, if in three to four years time, cars with 350-400 mile ranges were common I'd be wanting to change cars again (and my 250 mile range car would probably not be worth much). So maybe I should wait for those cars to sink into my price bracket.
Reliability and basic functionality seems to be pretty awful with a lot of EVs. I thought it was just because there is more information these days, but then I realised that I was checking driver's forums to get information on cars at least 15 years ago. They used to be mainly full of enthusiasts who loved their cars but now they are just a litany of faults that make me think "no way": cars that lock you out, fail to charge, fail to start (because the 12V battery is dead), set off the alarm in the middle of the night for no reason, brake for no reason, try to steer you into a cyclist, beep at you relentlessly because it thinks you are going 1mph over a speed limit it has got wrong, thinks you might cross a white line that doesn't exist, can't see your eyes for a few seconds etc.
Basic design issues: does FWD really make any sense in an EV or is it just a hang over from ICE cars (and a compromise for companies that still want to produce both)? Can we not all agree on something as basic as where to put the charge port?
At the end of the day, my 7 year old ICE car still does everything I want. I hasn't missed a beat in over 140,000 miles of driving and it is only really the fear of the bills that must be just around the corner (and a bit of guilt about those tailpipe emissions) that make me want to change. Looking at newer cars there are only really two things that look like an upgrade to me. I quite like the idea of a 360 degree camera, although my current reversing camera gets covered in crap half the year so maybe that wouldn't actually be that useful. I quite like the idea of lane centring on a motorway as it should make those longer journeys a bit more relaxing. But I can't seem to have either of those without a lot of tech that I don't want and a car that is much less reliable and much more frustrating to drive than my current one.
TLDR: EVs are modern cars and modern cars are over priced and overly complicated for my needs.
Any opinions on the Ioniq 5 with the 84kHw battery? I know they're pretty new. Its 354 miles WTLP, could I expect that to be around 250 of 50-70mph motorway driving?
According to ev-database it will do 190 miles on the motorway in cold weather and 240 in warm weather
https://ev-database.org/imp/car/2236/Hyundai-IONIQ-5-84-kWh-RWD
The cold weather is colder than we usually get in the UK but it still sounds as though 250 would be a stretch. Of course you only charge to 80% on longer journeys and wont want to risk dropping below 10% so the distance between charging stops is only 70% of those ranges on a long trip.
It can, in theory, charge 10-80% in as little as 17 minutes if you can find a fast enough charger though.
for some, even slightly long ones
What percentage of people (not cars) never go on a long trip? I'm sure lots of cars don't, because they are the 'second car' in a family, but they might all be driving to the Alps three times a year in their main car. Sure, this means there's a market for small short range cars, but there will still be a significant market for longer range ones. All this complexity behind the data just underlines the point that the mean journey length is a meaningless statistic particularly in this context.
Price of EV vs the ICE equivalent is hard to justify and wipes out most of the savings if you buy new with cash
What's your worked example for that? I think it depends on what you consider 'equivalent'.
we usually do it in 11 hours total (has been as short as 10 on a few occasions). It might be a rare case, but if the car pushed that journey beyond 12 hours I’d be regretting my purchase
Would you though? Really? You're still doing the same amount of actual driving, and 11 hours is still all day just the same as 12 hours. What you have to remember is that when you buy a new car, we all need it to be an EV. It's going to significantly reduce your carbon footprint and that is really quite important. Are you really saying that saving one hour a year is worth thousands of extra kgs of CO2 being emitted?
Reliability and basic functionality seems to be pretty awful with a lot of EVs
I honestly don't think this is true. There is a lot of misinformation about this, and a few key cock-ups like VW's rubbish infotainment. But you can avoid those. 12V batteries - I suspect a few cars have under-specified batteries, but you must remember that there are probably thousands of people every cold morning who can't start their ICEs because the battery has failed, and they don't make FB posts about it and FB doesn't put them on your feed. When a battery fails in an ICE it's just a normal part of car ownership, but when an EV 12V battery fails it's somehow a big deal.
According to ev-database
Take that with a pinch of salt. It says the 'mild weather' range of my car is 140 miles on the 'highway' but that would mean an average of 3.7 miles/kWh and I can get 5 doing nothing other than leaving the cruise control on 70mph. My long term average in combined driving is 5.1
I think these databases include US cars, where cold weather is clearly much colder, most people are driving at a true 80mph on their highways (which would be an indicted 85mph or more here) and in some markets heat pumps were optional extras.
I watched a video review of the Ioniq 5 when it came out with two people on a road trip, and one was able to achieve 4 miles per kWh and the other much less. I think that most UK drivers are getting 3.7 or so from their 5s, which would give you a 300 mile ish real range. Of course you are not going to be recharging to 100% on road trips as we know.
Pop onto one of the FB owners groups and ask about range.
I have diesel Vauxhall Combo - essentially a re-badged Berlingo. I would love an electric one, but we drive out to the Alps twice per year, and one of those trips is towing a trailer. It would be extremely tedious with a 180 mile range. In Winter we'd be recharging probably every 1.5 hours, and I have no idea how towing would effect the range. Some say it would halve, but my diesel mpg barely notices towing an "in-slipstream" trailer.
If it had a 300 mile range, I'd buy one tomorrow.
Range when towing is mostly about air resistance. Towing a caravan on a normal car is probably nearly double the frontal area, so you get half the fuel economy. But if you tow a low trailer that sits below the roof line, it's not going to make a lot of difference. Similarly, if you tow a caravan with a big van, they are nearly the same frontal area so not that much difference.
That was my thought. I would still need the longer range though. Maybe in a few years...
Yeah I drive a short range car but it's made possible by the fact it's consistent year round and it's range is genuine. I don't fancy those vans.
The new XL eBerlingo car can't tow anything. The normal length tows 750kg max. Presume the Combo is the same. Looks like all panel van versions including XL and crew van can tow 750kg.
Yeah, my trailer is sub 750kg, unbraked. My wife has a Peugeot E-2008 which is fantastic for the daily commute, but she has range anxiety with longer trips. From home to work to her Mum's house is about 125 miles, and the range (summer) should be about 200, but most of the 125 miles is at motorway speeds so gobbles the power. I keep trying to get her to slow down...
Yes when we go electric it will also be one car to do everything so needs a more realistic range.
We've just been on a regular trip to SW Scotland and cool weather, mway, fast A road and hills feels like a Berlingo might have needed two charging stops. Or one stop and a very nervous finish which is a bit silly for a 2.5 hour journey. Then 7kW charging in the village overnight and pedalling 1.5 miles back up the hill to where we stay.
But if you tow a low trailer that sits below the roof line, it’s not going to make a lot of difference.
Really?
I'm sure air resistance is a definite factor but if you take the equivalent weight of the trailer/contents and put it inside the car you're still going to use a chunk more power to move that weight from A to B. Physics.
Reliability and basic functionality seems to be pretty awful with a lot of EVs
That I do not believe. On my street there are very few ICE cars left. Most people I work with drive electric cars, and I hear of very few problems. They don't catch fire all the time.
I've got 190,000 kms on an old Leaf. I've just bought and EV6 and expect to put 200,000 on that as well, and don't expect much bother. And judging from last weekend I'd expect 400kms between charges, no problem in a winter that's colder than yours
if you take the equivalent weight of the trailer/contents and put it inside the car you’re still going to use a chunk more power to move that weight from A to B. Physics.
Well, that only apples when you're accelerating or going up a hill. On the flat at constant speed, the only effect weight has is increasing the rolling resistance. Of course the extra weight has an effect, but it's nowhere near as much as the air resistance.
People who tow caravans with normal cars report that their fuel economy towing is about half what it is solo. People who tow with big Range Rovers or vans report that it doesn't go down that much, because it's already low, because of air resistance. People who tow super light caravans like the Swift Basecamp or the other small (but full height) ones from Bailey or Elddis etc also report that their fuel economy is not that different to those towing big vans weighing twice as much. I just went from a 1200kg van to a 1500kg van of the same size, and my fuel economy is about 5-10% better.
What’s your worked example for that? I think it depends on what you consider ‘equivalent’.
Just had a look on the Hyundai site as the Kona was the first example that came to mind of a car that could be had with the same trim levels in either petrol or EV. Price for a petrol Ultimate (top level) trim is currently listed as £30k. The same trim level in the EV is £43k
Similar story at the bottom of the range: Advance trim is £26k in petrol or £35k for the EV.
Depreciation is pretty steep on EVs of course, so you can pick up a one year old Ultimate trim with less than 10k on the clock for around £30k, but it's still basically second hand EV or new petrol for the same money.
Would you though? Really? You’re still doing the same amount of actual driving, and 11 hours is still all day just the same as 12 hours. What you have to remember is that when you buy a new car, we all need it to be an EV. It’s going to significantly reduce your carbon footprint and that is really quite important. Are you really saying that saving one hour a year is worth thousands of extra kgs of CO2 being emitted?
To be honest, if it was just me then I probably could just take a few more breaks and wouldn't really mind. But after 11 hours in the car the rest of the family (and dogs) are getting a bit antsy 🙂 You are right though, it's not a deal breaker, just a small example of where you could spend a lot of money and end up with a worse experience. I agree with your main point though and it's very unlikely that I will buy another ICE car. If/when I buy another car it should be an EV, but the more I look into them the more tempted I am to just keep my ICE car for a bit longer and the environmental impact of that seems a bit more complicated.
Re: reliability and basic functionality being awful.
I honestly don’t think this is true
You could be right and I see @wbo makes a similar point. Maybe I'm just reading too much into complaints on driver forums.
I do remember, many years ago, I bought a Smart ForFour and before doing so I registered for the Smart forum to see what drivers thought. It was basically full of people showing pictures of their cars, arranging meets and discussing options for remapping them for more fun. Recently I checked out the Smart # 1 forum and while a few people do like them it's mainly a long list of faults and complaints about poor service and flaky software. I had a look on the Volvo Ex30 forum too and that was even worse! Maybe I just picked two bad examples, but the only EVs I can think of that owners seem to rave about are Teslas and my family are firmly in the "can't buy one of them, people might think we support Musk" camp 🙂
Any of the resident Hyundai / Kia fans tried an EV3 yet? Demo cars not due until early December according to my local dealer
Not driven one, but my beef with the EV3 is that you can only get the heat pump as an optional extra on the top trim level. It's being marketed as a low cost, long range small EV but if you want a heat pump (to stop range dropping significantly in winter) then it's just another £44k EV.
It's not even that small, which is another thing I find annoying with the current crop pf EVs. I don't need or want a large car, they are a pain to park and generally less fun to drive than smaller cars. Something the size of a Suzuki Swift with a 300 mile range would be perfect. But if I want any sort of decent range I have to buy something much larger than I need or want.
the only EVs I can think of that owners seem to rave about are Teslas
I think most people here are pretty pleased with their EVs, most of which are not Teslas.
Re the long trip - you say it's 9hrs of driving and 500 miles. In most cars that's going to comfortably be three stops. If each stop is half an hour, that's still less time than you spend stopped even in your ICE. Head onto ABRP and you can plan out some scenarios. Also bear in mind they are very conservative with their range estimates.
Something the size of a Suzuki Swift with a 300 mile range would be perfect
That much battery takes up a certain amount of space, that's hard to get around. A Kona is as small as you're going to get with a decent range but that's not even 300 miles IIRC.
but the only EVs I can think of that owners seem to rave about are Teslas and my family are firmly in the “can’t buy one of them, people might think we support Musk” camp
I think his only crime is being an arsehole.
If any of your family have a petrol car then they have spent their lives financially supporting arseholes. In just very recent times have they forgotten they are throwing there petrol money into a murdering Saudi family regime that treat women like third class citizens and would happily throw "other" people off a bridge.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45812399.amp
There's no illusion that the Saudi sovereign wealth fund is everywhere, but man child musk is the least of their problems, they're already in the matrix..
It is true, Tesla's are no good for virtue signalling..
Thanks. ABRP is good fun and I have planned that journey out in various EVs now. Interesting to hear that they tend to be conservative. Even so it does look as though it shouldn't be too bad. Of course, ABRP can't tell me how busy those chargers are going to be on the Sunday before Christmas, but I can check that out myself (in my ICE car) in a few weeks.
Yes, we've had all those discussions about Tesla. I'm very much of the view that all cars are just boxes on wheels. I don't much care what they look like and the only thing that matters about the badge to me is what sort of support I might get when it goes wrong. But I can't deny that many people think they are making some kind of statement by driving a certain car and I'm not going to buy a car that makes the rest of the family uncomfortable, no matter how irrational I might think they are being on this one.
I honestly don’t think this is true.
TBH, if you compare the number of people complaining about something on the internet, and then go and interrogate the car systems to find out how many times something has actually failed/happened, or even just look at *actual* warranty, rather than twitter/forums. The mismatch is gargantuan. The size of the issue is amplified at least 10 fold, more likely 100 or more.
I worked on one three/four years ago and found about 70-80 posts from different users across twitter and three or four of the bigger user communities. We had *three* actual times that it'd happened, in two years, over well over quarter of a million cars with the feature installed. It's not the only time i've found this sort of mismatch, and now we have more connected cars, it's easier to get an actual set of statistics/data, once you have an idea of whats wrong.
What percentage of people (not cars) never go on a long trip? I’m sure lots of cars don’t, because they are the ‘second car’ in a family, but they might all be driving to the Alps three times a year in their main car
Not sure about people, but something like 15% of cars won't, obviously varies by market and car size/class. (NB, i haven't looked at this since last i changed jobs, when it was actually relevant!)
the only thing that matters about the badge to me is what sort of support I might get when it goes wrong
Tesla have a poor reputation for after sales service, perhaps because of their service model; but whilst Hyundai/Kia dealers do make an effort it's apparently really difficult to get parts - a 6 week wait seems to be a good result. Fortunately the warranty is long so they hire you a care whilst yours is off the road.
Tesla have a poor reputation for after sales service, perhaps because of their service model; but whilst Hyundai/Kia dealers do make an effort it’s apparently really difficult to get parts – a 6 week wait seems to be a good result. Fortunately the warranty is long so they hire you a care whilst yours is off the road.
I've heard conflicting stories about Tesla service. Some people seem to like the fact that you do everything through the app and they come to you for servicing and some warranty stuff. Others not so keen.
The longer warranties on Hyundai/Kia are good but as someone who tends to keep cars for around 7 years (and would probably be buying something a year or two old already) I'm also interested in parts availability, which does seem to be an issue. It's about the only thing I don't like about my current Suzuki to be honest. I've currently got a very slow coolant leak (as in chuck a bit more coolant in every six months sort of slow) which my local independent garage says is coming from the radiator. Unfortunately it looks as though you can only buy a radiator directly from Suzuki and they want £700 (ouch). It's basically things like that and the knowledge that after 140,000 (trouble free) miles I can probably expect things like clutch, exhaust, timing chain and turbo to go at any moment. All of which could be expensive, on top of the usual suspension and brake stuff.
Parts availability seems to be an issue on most EVs, regardless of brand. I am on a few BMW i4 FB groups and it seems pretty standard that when just about anything goes wrong its 2 weeks minimum and often more than a month.
I can probably expect things like clutch, exhaust, timing chain and turbo to go at any moment
Happily EVs have none of those things 🙂
Long journeys have never been more pleasant for us, we are enjoying the stops, for us, driving an EV has been refreshingly pleasant. Our five year old Tesla has also been faultless this year, we’ve journeyed across Europe, all over England and Wales with never a stressful moment. Not a thing has needed to be done to the car either, very cheap motoring.
I also dislike Musk but am at peace with Tesla as a company. 🙂
It has broken us as car buyers though, I can’t seeing us wanting to replace it for a very very long time.
Sounds great. Which model Tesla and what kind of range / distance or time between stops on longer trips?
Happily EVs have none of those things ?
And to be honest, that's the main motivation for me to buy an EV. It's not so much about the tailpipe emissions. I do agree that they are probably beneficial in that regard too, but it's a complex argument once you factor in the extra carbon produced in production and try to decide whether the energy the EV uses can be considered to come from the general mix of electricity produced for the grid or has to be counted as an extra demand that is mostly met from gas powered power stations. But if they can last significantly longer than ICE cars then that is a clear environmental (and cost) benefit.
Unfortunately, while I don't doubt that a modern EV could last over 20 years and over 400,000 miles (i.e. twice the current average for a petrol car in the UK) I'm also sure that manufacturers will do everything in their power to stop that happening.
Thanks @steamtb I'll keep working on the rest of the family 🙂
I did find an interesting article from Treehugger about whether it is OK to buy a Tesla if you don't like Musk
https://www.treehugger.com/is-it-ethical-to-buy-tesla-despite-elon-musk-5213960
Unfortunately it concludes that it is OK to buy a Tesla but also OK not to buy a Tesla so may not help my argument 🙂
It’s not even that small, which is another thing I find annoying with the current crop pf EVs.
This gets my goat too, the "small" EV3 is 30mm wider than the current Niro (which itself was 15mm wider than the old), or as wide as a Model 3 or Ariya. The carparks we often use try to squeeze three spaces between pillars and I don't fancy going any wider than the Leaf.
Megane E-Tech is looking good for something roomy enough for 4, 400+ litre boot and 10mm narrower than a Leaf.
(yes, I spend too long looking at car dimensions)
I've had 4 experiences of tesla service and it's all been positive and surprisingly not expensive when I've had to pay. Must admit initially I wasn't keen on the faceless "do it all thru the app" idea, but after a few uses I was fine with it, probably my age. .
1. Accident repair, someone reversed into passenger door. parts took about 6 weeks, but it was Oct 2020 right in the middle of lock downs. insurance Bill was £1700 (new front door and wing mirror) which I assumed would be similar for Audi, BMW etc
2. DC charging fault came up on the screen, was told I needed a part replacing but it couldn't be done outside my house, booked it in service centre at my convenience, it took a couple of hours whilst I went to the local climbing wall. warranty job.
3. Needed 2 new key cards (long story and nothing to do with Tesla). mobile service came out within 2 days, programmed them whilst sat outside my house. £39.99 for 2 new key cards and a home visit. Mobile service guy tried to get it done under warranty for me which didn't happen, but I didn't appear to get charged for his time/callout/labour. I'd given him a sob story
4. Needed new front passenger door glass (related to above). Tesla mobile service came to my work and fitted new door glass for £271. I had to wait 2 weeks from ordering to fitting. National windscreens quoted £900 online, Autoglass quoted £600 over the phone.
And to be honest, that’s the main motivation for me to buy an EV.
Me too .... well the performance but low 'fuel' cost helps too!
We keep cars for a long time - this morning I've said bye to our diesel golf that we've had for about 10 years and 90k miles. It' been good but we don't need it now since MrsSB bought something else.
Over that time it's had a clutch, timing belt and water pump (it's had tyres, brakes and 2 x new shocks as well but they don't count as EVs have them also) which is probably not too bad. But ICE have so many parts that can go wrong it quite frightening and frankly a marvel that modern cars do actually work so reliably - and that's what worries me.
I have a Cayenne that I've had for 10 years also and it's great.... but I'm waiting for something big to go wrong which I guess it inevitably will. EV's have far fewer parts to go wrong and the biggest issue going forwards is probably software related - but I'm still worried about their longevity. If I bought one it would be [to me] very expensive and I'm still trying to convince myself that in 10 years time I'd still be getting the same use from it as I probably would with a ICE car.
This gets my goat too, the “small” EV3 is 30mm wider than the current Niro (which itself was 15mm wider than the old), or as wide as a Model 3 or Ariya. The carparks we often use try to squeeze three spaces between pillars and I don’t fancy going any wider than the Leaf.
Megane E-Tech is looking good for something roomy enough for 4, 400+ litre boot and 10mm narrower than a Leaf.
Yes, why did they have to make the new Kona bigger than the old one? It's not like the world is short of mid-sized SUVs. The old Kona had a nice niche as a smaller SUV, but not any more.
The Megane has also been on my shortlist. It's USP seems to be that it can display google maps in the main driver display (leaving the other one free for music etc) which is a neat trick. Unfortunately a fair few owners seem to have experienced the alarm going off in the middle of the night for no reason, which would drive me nuts. Also seem to be quite a few complaints about poor range although I'm not sure if that's just people who thought the WLTP range actually meant something 🙂 Putting it up against the Ex30 (as another small hatchback option) on ev-database the Megane seems to have higher range in all conditions despite a slightly smaller battery.
I’m still worried about their longevity. If I bought one it would be [to me] very expensive and I’m still trying to convince myself that in 10 years time I’d still be getting the same use from it as I probably would with a ICE car.
That pretty much sums up the issue for me. I know where I stand with a petrol car. There is lots of data on which makes/engines are reliable, what issues to expect etc. But an EV is still a bit of an unknown quantity. Maybe Tesla get another tick there as there are a fair few high mileage examples on the road now.
I'm fairly confident that an EV purchased today would still be running in 6 years time, but would you actually still want to drive it given what else would be available? You could buy a 6 year old Leaf now, but would you want to?
I’m fairly confident that an EV purchased today would still be running in 6 years time, but would you actually still want to drive it given what else would be available?
I'd rather be driving a good EV bought now for 6 years than any ICE car available now and it'll still be a good EV six years from now despite any advances in EV tech and it'll still be better than any ICE cars that may still be being made. You could make the same argument for any piece of consumer tech like cameras, phones, TVs etc. Just buy one and enjoy it ...or don't.
A six year old Tesla Model 3, is, a few tweaks away from the current Model 3 that still wins best in class tests. My 2020 Model 3 went back to the lease company yesterday and you absolutely wouldn't say anything about it was old tech.
In a few weeks six years ago is 2019!
It’s USP seems to be that it can display google maps in the main driver display (leaving the other one free for music etc) which is a neat trick.
The Polestar does this too… Really useful feature when my daughter wants to choose her teeny bopper songs!
I think it’s an android automotive feature..
DrP
I will miss the Google-maps-behind-the-steering-wheel from Polestar ownership. It was a really neat feature.
Picked up #1 Brabus yesterday. I did not take kiddo and his mate out to the nearest bit of quiet dual carriageway, switch driving mode to Brabus and floor it for a few seconds. That would just be juvenile.
The heads up display is quite groovy too.
It’s not so much about the tailpipe emissions. I do agree that they are probably beneficial in that regard too, but it’s a complex argument
I don't think it is. Every study says that the overall carbon footprint of an EV is lower, they simply vary on the mileage the car has to do before the crossover point. Some say it's 30k miles, some say it's 80k miles. But you must remember that the energy mix is getting cleaner all the time. The CO2 per kWh of the UK grid today is a fifth of what it was as recently as 2012. You could have bought a Leaf in 2012, and it would be emitting a fifth of the CO2 per mile than when you bought it, and you would not have had to do anything. The UK electricity grid is decarbonising rapidly, there are storage projects and generation capacity going up all the time. The car that is made now is going to be cleaner again in ten years' time. Another remarkable statistic I read recently said that 40% of global shipping itself responsible for simply moving fossil fuels around to be burned in other places.
Then you can also factor in local air quality. That 60l of toxic hydrocarbons you put in your ICE does not disappear - it gets converted into less toxic fumes and sprayed around wherever you go. And there are millions of vehicles doing this all the time. It's quite horrible when you think about it.
Unfortunately, while I don’t doubt that a modern EV could last over 20 years and over 400,000 miles (i.e. twice the current average for a petrol car in the UK) I’m also sure that manufacturers will do everything in their power to stop that happening.
This is a myth. Manufacturers don't design obsolescence in. Think about what you mean by how long a car 'lasts'. People get rid of cars because the cost of repair is more than the market value of the car, but what dictates the market value? Simply the desirability and availability of new better cars. Cars would last far longer than they do now if used car prices were higher, because more people would repair them. Manufacturers can make their cars reliable so they look good to consumers whilst ensuring people will continue to buy new models by innovating and making new cars better still.
I’m fairly confident that an EV purchased today would still be running in 6 years time, but would you actually still want to drive it given what else would be available?
If you decide not to worry about it then yes, of course. Mine's 4.5 years old, and whilst I would love a fancy new one, that's always the case and I have made a decision to keep this one until either a) it dies b) we no longer need it or c) we become really rich.
@mick_r it’s a 2019 model 3 Performance. Late drive last week at night, quite chilly, three passengers and loads of stuff in the car, 240 miles at a smidge above 70 for a full charge. I assume we have about 10% battery degradation given the age but I’ve never measured it. We obviously have the old, much less efficient heater too. Our biggest challenge when we charge is getting back to the car before we get charged idling fees, although we are quite chilled and don’t rush! Dropping 10mph off that leads to a notable range increase.
Sudden thought on longetivity reading on the toilet... I am now the owner of an EV6 - I got a 2nd hand one with 11,000 kms on the clock so I've got nearly 140,000 kms or 5 years + of warranty to go. Warranties can break car companies (ask JLR re. the ipace) so Kia must be pretty darn confident.
FWIW it's really nice, easy to drive, and judging by the one longish drive so far will easy do 450kms on twisty mountainous A roads though the speed limit is never above 90kms. Charging is quick, and nice controls with stalks and buttons
(Megane)
Also seem to be quite a few complaints about poor range although I’m not sure if that’s just people who thought the WLTP range actually meant something
I don't think the earlier UK ones had a heat pump, it came a bit later on but only with the top spec.
It's recently been revised and they all get it as standard now, as well as the nice 12" screen on all but the base model. List price is cheaper too, although Renault seem keen to do deals anyway.
Loose wires in the boot, new EV to me, any ideas ?
Thanks @molgrips I don’t disagree with you on the environmental argument but I know that there is a counter argument along the lines that we currently use all of the “green” energy that we produce. So, if I add extra demand to the grid by buying an EV that extra demand is met entirely through gas as we can’t increase the amount of power produced from renewables. I suspect that argument is crap (turbines may well be switched off some nights due to lack of demand, for example) but I know it is out there.
Not sure about the manufacturers. Maybe obsolescence isn’t explicitly designed in but but they don’t seem to make any attempt to design them so that they are easy to repair, may not provide parts after what they consider to be the life of the car and with extra complexity they can also stop providing software support. I agree that the main driver for replacing a car is probably just going to be that something better is available rather than it actually not meeting my needs anymore though.
Thanks @simon_g I’ve had an alert set up on autotrader for a 24 Megane for a while now. Almost pulled the trigger on one a few weeks back but there are still a few things that make me think it might not be right for me. They are all just personal preferences though.
I realised something fairly obvious yesterday. If I don’t like the fact that new cars are getting bigger, I don’t like all the intrusive “aids” and I’m not sure if I’d want to keep any current EV for 6-7 years then rather than looking at a one year old car in the £25-£30k range maybe I should be looking at a three year old one in the £15-£20k range instead. Something from Hyundai/Kia would presumably still have a fair bit of warranty left anyway. Yes I’d probably want to change in earlier but I’d have an extra £10k (plus interest) in the bank when the time came.
I would have to give up some of the nice features on newer models but maybe that would be offset by less annoying features too. How far back do you have to go before you don’t have to switch off speed, driver attention and lane departure warnings every time you get into the car? I know my 2017 car doesn’t have these. My wife’s 2018 does have lane departure warning, but we switched it off after about a day and it’s stayed off for the past six years.
I know that there is a counter argument along the lines that we currently use all of the “green” energy that we produce. So, if I add extra demand to the grid by buying an EV that extra demand is met entirely through gas as we can’t increase the amount of power produced from renewables.
If we did use it all we wouldn't have to pay wind farms to curtail their output. Maximisation of the use of renewables and low carbon electricity can be achieved by incentivising people to time shift their EV charging (and other use) to times of low demand or when there is an excess of renewables by use of time based tariffs like Octopus Go or Agile. Recently Octopus have been giving customers free electricity for 1 hour periods during the afternoon on sunny and windy days. Sadly that's probbaly not going to happen again until the spring.
I know that there is a counter argument along the lines that we currently use all of the “green” energy that we produce.
No we don't - which is why octopus pay me to use electricity overnight when it's windy!
[Agile]
And there's more to come.
may not provide parts after what they consider to be the life of the car
Did you know that there are [AFAIA] rules that state that manufacturers have to supply parts for 10 years after a model has stopped production?
But not on what they can charge for them as far as I know. I mentioned above that Suzuki want £700 for a radiator for my 7 year old car (and nobody else supplies them apparently). So maybe parts are technically available but there isn’t any incentive for a manufacturer to make it economically viable for you to repair their old car. I mean they are businesses after all.
That radiator price is more an issue of Suzuki being a very low volume vehicle in the UK and maybe Europe. If it were higher volume there would be OEM parts at reasonable prices and a choice of cheaper aftermarket suppliers. e.g. a very quick search on my wife's 14 year old C3 Picasso is £224 for an OEM Valeo radiator and pattern parts down to £90 - an advantage of the 1.6 HDI being used in absolutely loads of vehicles (Ford and BMW as well as many Stellantis products).
Thanks for the range information @steamtb - I'd agree that we could happily live with an EV on those figures.
Had a very quick look at the Kia EV3 yesterday. Nice but not tall enough in the rear for droppered bikes upright without a front wheel. Also a shame about the limited heat pump options as the base "Air" model is otherwise very well equipped. Totally ignored in the showroom despite making a beeline for one specific vehicle and having a detailed look / measure up....
Another thought is at what point do insurance companies start penalising people who crash vehicles with driver assistance turned off?
if I add extra demand to the grid by buying an EV that extra demand is met entirely through gas
Even if that wasn't in dispute, remember that the direct alternative (i.e. using an ICE car) is meeting that demand through petrol or diesel...
I realised something fairly obvious yesterday. If I don’t like the fact that new cars are getting bigger, I don’t like all the intrusive “aids” and I’m not sure if I’d want to keep any current EV for 6-7 years then rather than looking at a one year old car in the £25-£30k range maybe I should be looking at a three year old one in the £15-£20k range instead. Something from Hyundai/Kia would presumably still have a fair bit of warranty left anyway. Yes I’d probably want to change in earlier but I’d have an extra £10k (plus interest) in the bank when the time came.
I'm in a similar sort of boat, but looking a tier down in terms of price. I think we need a smaller EV as a second car within the next couple of years, missus only has an auto license, eldest will be approaching learning to drive age, we make plenty of short local journeys, have a drive way where we could charge and a small, a used EV with minimal range just makes sense.
With that in mind I'm looking at the general availability of used EVs and noticing the pattern where lots of Leafs and Zoës are going pretty cheap now, but we're talking about those earlier 22-30kwh cars, lots of the Zoës are battery lease too (meaning an extra ongoing cost or another buy-out option to consider). And it's a gamble, the picture on battery life for all of these seems fuzzy still and we're talking about 16/17/18 plate cars, they'll be pushing a decade before you know it. So if I blow £5k on a "runabout" with say battery health that gives 60-80 miles on a full charge today, what will that be in 2 years? If I take on someone else's battery lease and Renault stop supporting it, making an otherwise mechanically fine car difficult to support where will that leave me, we're facing the risk of buying into the first round of obsolescence in EVs something that really runs the risk of undermining a major selling point of them.
I would have to give up some of the nice features on newer models but maybe that would be offset by less annoying features too. How far back do you have to go before you don’t have to switch off speed, driver attention and lane departure warnings every time you get into the car? I know my 2017 car doesn’t have these. My wife’s 2018 does have lane departure warning, but we switched it off after about a day and it’s stayed off for the past six years.
I've Just got a 74 Skoda, AIUI legally the car now has to be configured so that speed warnings are enabled as a minimum, every time the car starts the driver can then disable them, but that's an active choice (I wonder how insurance companies will view this?). Personally I like having the warnings and the dash showing the prevailing limit as well as using the speed limiter in 20-40 limit areas, lane assist is two (steering wheel) button presses to disable and while mostly fine does seems intent on killing me on B-Roads where makings and crap make it's life harder.
Other than that it's all passive stuff and has been on cars for a while now. Active cruise control I can take or leave TBH, I have found setting the limiter to 70 interesting for short DC/motorway hops. Collision detection (it's just the forward facing sensors for parking and ACC looking out for other cars in your path below about 30) hasn't been too bad but seems to shit itself if a bit of condensation gets on the bumpers of a morning, seems to take about a mile to clear again, it has kicked in once for a Beemer who spotted his turn a bit late and I can't honestly say if it was me or the car that braked first. I've not had a 'driver awareness warning yet, but apparently it's monitoring me in case I snooze off, which is nice to know
Overall I think these are mostly positive additions to driving, things for the driver to work with, not against, prompting some better behaviours maybe(?) at the same time I'm more suspicious of FSD, which feels like the logical extension, but that's got it's own separate thread.
I don't think you'll be able to opt out of the driver aids going forward TBH, not without buying significantly older cars (like 6+ years at this point?) and running them for longer, both for ICE or leccy, so it becomes a tipping point, just how opposed to driver aids are you?
I think having an EV as a second car or runaround makes perfect sense, especially if you can charge at home. Personally I don’t think I’d buy anything with a battery lease these days, but I’d have no concerns about an older Zoe. Our neighbours (retired) have an older and a newer Zoe. The newer one has longer range and CCS charging, but the older one works just as well for local trips.
I think it is when you are looking at an EV as the main (or only) car that has to handle everything from commuting to family holidays that things get a bit more tricky. I still think it should work though.
I’m not actually opposed to driver aids. In principle they are great. It’s just annoying when they don’t work. I like the fact that Google maps now tells me what it thinks is the speed limit when I’m navigating, but am surprised at how often it is wrong. No problem when it is just showing the limit on the screen but would be very annoying if it was beeping at you all the time.
I can't imagine any of the driver aids you don't want can't be switched off with a bit of work on the the OBD port
I read somewhere that cars with modern driver aids are 40% less likely to be involved in an accident. For that benefit I'll happily put up with a bit of beeping now and then. Fortunately, our car has a button to disable lane keep assist which is important on narrow windy roads like a typical B road, because it's just not able to deal with it. I re-enable it when I get back to normal roads though.
Re the energy usage - there are battery storage facilities going up all over the place and loads of new windfarms. Given the wind still blows at night I expect that due to the huge drop in demand could easily be met by wind power much of the time. Octopus intelligent charging already schedules charging when there is more wind power available - when you plug in, it gives you a schedule based on the weather forecast so it'll say charging from 0030 to 0130 then 0330-0400 etc.
Re old runabouts - I had a look at these a while ago and they were still expensive enough not to be worth it. I'm a big EV advocate but I am still nervous about these old cars. That said there are piles of Leaf batteries on eBay.
I don’t like all the intrusive “aids”
Yeah, I am struggling a bit with this - we got a Lexus RZ in September and it beeps at you when you exceed whatever speed limit it thinks it is (it isn't always correct) and I have yet to find out how to stop the beeping (even temporarily). It has lane assist that gets flustered when I am on narrow roads with cars approaching, it beeps if it thinks I am not paying attention (if I am looking left and right at a junction, it thinks I am not looking ahead and paying attention) and a couple of times it has emergency-braked when it thought I was going to crash – at the weekend I pulled out onto a road with queuing traffic at some lights, it slammed on, dropped power and left me stuck in the middle of the road with cars heading toward me. And when I reverse it's all Bing! Bang! Bong! Beep!
all that aside, was able to put smug face on this morning at 730 am, when with outside temperature at minus 5 and the neighbours out scraping away at their car windscreens, mine was sitting quietly with the ice melting away, 5 mins or so after pressing the climatisation button on the phone app.. 🙂
all that aside, was able to put smug face on this morning at 730 am, when with outside temperature at minus 5 and the neighbours out scraping away at their car windscreens, mine was sitting quietly with the ice melting away, 5 mins or so after pressing the climatisation button on the phone app
Agreed – I have just set a schedule to pre-heat the car every weekday morning so my wife gets a nice warm car and clear glass when she sets off for work.
If you aren't needing to charge every day, is it possible to plug in and preheat without actually adding charge? Don't know if that is a thing and how small top-ups relate to overall battery life in terms of charge / discharge cycles. I'll ask my battery lab colleague when he is next on our site but Mert might be along to advise in the meantime.
Early starter so would probably be still in the cheap rate when I'd be preheating, and with that Berlingo I tried last week there would be some days I'd want to save the range for driving.
and I have yet to find out how to stop the beeping (even temporarily)
Every I4 owner knows the joy of a long press of the 'set' button on the steering wheel when you set off...
It will come back on when you restart - it's the law.
Is it only the law on cars sold after a certain date though? I'm still wondering whether this might actually be an advantage to buying a slightly older car.
The inch of snow in the village (and resulting chaos on the roads) this morning has sharpened my focus on winter performance of EVs. I can't claim that it is a major problem having to pop out to the car and start the engine 5 minutes before I leave so everything can defrost, but it would be nice to do it from the warmth of my kitchen 🙂
I still can't get my head around the whole FWD vs RWD (vs AWD) issue in an EV though. OK AWD is best (and brings extra giggles) but at the cost of range. I also understand that RWD gives a more engaging drive, better steering feel and should give better traction, especially going up hill as the weight is over the driven wheels. FWD does give slightly better efficiency (slightly more efficient regen) but I can't help thinking that it is just a hangover from ICE cars though.
I did read something about FWD still being better in the snow on an EV because a) you can move the driven wheels about a bit to find some grip and b) the driven wheels aren't always having to find traction in the snow that was compacted by the front tyres. Not sure if that is really true though.
Obviously tyres are most important and modern traction control systems are pretty good, but since I can choose a FWD or a RWD EV I'd like to know what would theoretically be better in snow even if it doesn't actually matter in practice.
If I’m preheating I want it using the battery that was charged at the cheap rate.
One of the annoyances on my car (or the app) is that it won't allow cabin preconditioning if it has less than 50% charge. I'm a cheapskate so if I'm driving to work I like to set off with minimal charge so that I can maximize the benefit of free charging at work, but that usually means I can't pre-warm the car.
If you aren’t needing to charge every day, is it possible to plug in and preheat without actually adding charge? Don’t know if that is a thing and how small top-ups relate to overall battery life in terms of charge / discharge cycles
There's no need to avoid adding charge. If you want maximum battery lifespan then you limit the charge to 80% until you need it to be 100% on those odd occasions you have a trip planned, and that's all you need to do. Adding a small amount of charge doesn't really constitute a 'cycle' otherwise you'd be using up a cycle every time you press the brake pedal.
since I can choose a FWD or a RWD EV I’d like to know what would theoretically be better in snow even if it doesn’t actually matter in practice.
It's really a non-issue. The weight of the car is going to be right in the middle for an EV, and the risk of oversteer or the back overtaking the front is not ever going to be an issue with super-responsive traction control. I think the reason most EVs are RWD is simply that they can be, there's no real reason not to, and it eliminates torque steer.
Adding a small amount of charge doesn’t really constitute a ‘cycle’ otherwise you’d be using up a cycle every time you press the brake pedal.
I'm not sure that's true. Its not a cycle for the entire battery, but it is a cycle for the bit of the battery you added charge to.
That said, it doesn't matter whether you charge 75% - 80% or later charge 50%-80% - the 5% of the battery still gets cycled as you still need to replace the charge.
For hybrid batteries, the far higher cycle count compared to an EV (caused by you pressing the brake pedal and having a far smaller battery) does put significantly different workloads on the battery, so hybrid batteries are higher spec and more expensive (per cell) than an EV battery
5 to 10 mins of preheating in my i4, even on a well subzero day like today, has no noticeable effect on the displayed amount of charge % or range in miles.
Re batteries, there are different guidelines for LFP batteries which are meant to be charged to 100% at least once a week.
There are numerous profoundly dull YouTube videos on the subject.
As the owner of a couple of relevant cars, I can comment..... So if I blow £5k on a “runabout” with say battery health that gives 60-80 miles on a full charge today, what will that be in 2 years?
In my experience as a long term owner, if you use it as a runabout with 'gentle ' home charging, much the same. The LEaf has a battery health indicator telling you what you're buying.
Re. driver aids, if you don't like them, in an EV6 you hold down the button for 3 seconds , they're gone, till the next time it's turned on and off. Not sure if it's as easy in most other cars, be they EV or ICE post 2022 or so.
I'll be able to tell you about snow driving in an RWD car by tomorrow I suspect looking out the window.... But I have winters on, and that's more important
In my experience as a long term owner, if you use it as a runabout with ‘gentle ‘ home charging, much the same. The LEaf has a battery health indicator telling you what you’re buying.
like I said it's not what I'm buying, it's what I'm going to be stuck with in a few years time, an unsaleable car with 20 miles of range doesn't appeal. So if the rate of battery degradation isn't as bad as people seem to flap about (he says doing exactly that) then great, that's kind of what I want to believe.
By 'Gentle' Home Charging do you mean keeping it in about the 20-80% range either with a cheapo 7kW wall unit or even just a 13A plug overnight? As that's the sort of thing I had envisaged TBH. No big wattage fast charging (not that these 'older' EVs take that), running the battery right down to ~5% or charging it to 100% unnecessarily...
I'd want to be able to get a few useful years use out of it still (say four as a minimum?), without too much maintenance stress. So buying a 16 plate Leaf or Zoe in 2025 (already a 9 year old car at that point) and running it until say 2029ish (by which time it'll be 13 years old) to then either flog off or scrap depending on it's value to someone else doesn't seem insane.
On that basis are you saying you'd personally consider a ~16 plate Leaf or Zoe (non-battery lease) as a local runabout (doing 10-30ish miles a day)?*
*Note the intent is for this to be driven by a technophobic Woman who tends not to pay attention to things like gauges, and regularly forgets to charge her mobile...
Preheating on octopus intelligent go is at the cheap rate.
This is a very handy way to game Octopus for a cheap croissant cookery window.
If you aren’t needing to charge every day, is it possible to plug in and preheat without actually adding charge?
Not on anything i've played with. There are several devices that need to be on to start the climate system and connect to ground power. And AFAIK this will start the charging (unless you're already at a SoC limit). The power will essentially go Wall box > Onboard Charger > Battery > Climate system.
how small top-ups relate to overall battery life in terms of charge / discharge cycles.
Bugger all. Charging damage is pretty much proportional to how fast and how full you charge. Charging slow and/or low, the damage is a fraction of a percent of that which you do supercharging from 0-100%.
since I can choose a FWD or a RWD EV I’d like to know what would theoretically be better in snow even if it doesn’t actually matter in practice.
Unless you're buying something so old that it doesn't have traction contols, ABS and all those other systems that have been around a couple of decades neither is better until you get to the track. I can get out of my place in FWD/RWD/AWD/4WD (and once in 6WD) with no issues, and that's a steep dirt track in Scandinavia. It (as always) is people who aren't prepared who cause the issues.
The BEVs i've had down there, the only one that struggled was the RWD prototype with completely uncalibrated traction control and ABS...
TBH, you're overthinking it.