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At the moment each charging provider seems to be trying to get people into their own network. But I see the future being much more open and you just use whichever one works for you at the time, like petrol stations now.
Re the integrating all of the available chargers availability with car route planning (copying a message I wrote in a different ev ralated thread) My theory…. Google are really good at doing things like this and I suspect that they will eventually to do (either developing their own solution or buying out a smaller company who’s developed a solution) and from then on all the charging providers will desperately want to be part of this system to drive traffic to their chargers (a bit like how Google focussed SEO is a big deal for websites now). That will then drive prices down as it will be a hyper competitive market.
Agree re google. Just slightly amazed it hasn’t happened already!
Where they are from, everyone drives Tesla's and they already do it...
But yes it will be coming. It's already pretty frustrating it isn't tied into android auto already, and I still haven't even got the fuel saver update they have been rolling out.
They have a bit of work to do - we asked it 'directions to Glenrothes Instavolt' and it mapped to somewhere down south, 6hrs away. We were about 20 mins away and just wanted to check traffic on the route.
Any other suggestions c. £50k, 2 adult, 2 child family?
Ioniq 5, iD4/5
I wonder if some cars handle heat better than others? I've read that they have battery cooling and heating, perhaps some.dont have enough.
I have a Kia eNiro. Cracking car. Currently returning a genuine range of approx. 340 miles to a full charge, reduced to about 280 in the depths of winter.
On the Octopus GoFurther tariff, so charging is done in a 5 hour window at 8.5p kw/h.
Just browsing possible affordable EVs, in the £10-12k ish sort of range. It's pretty much all old model Leafs and Zoes, some with lease some without. I definitely don't want a Leaf because of the battery cooling thing, but what would I need to know about older Zoes? I think this is what @Edukator has?
It'd be for a local car only so a 26kWh battery would be alright.
For a bit more there are some Mercedes B-Class EVs. I didn't even know they made one of those, no idea what it's like. Also maybe an older but high mileage i3.
Anyone know the details of these older cars?
I have a leased Tesla, if you're near Worthing on the South Coast I'll even let you take it for a drive and see if it works for you. I don't own the car or have any particular tesla loyalty so happy for others to make their mind up.
I won't comment on build quality or charging networks in here because the usual suspect(s) will just rip my post apart with their extensive experience of living with a Tesla and how awful it is.
I had a 41kWh Zoé and now have a 52kWh. I borrowed a 23kWh when they came out but didn't buy one because it wouldn't do the journeys I do a lot on a charge and there were insufficient chargers at the time - it was impossible to get to Toulouse, Bordeaux or the mountains. With current infrastructure a 23kWh would cover most of my driving but with more time on chargers -18kW is realistically the fastest charging you'll see with the 23kWh battery unless you get one of the rare fast charge Continental motor versions.
My 41kWh Zoé (same as the 23kWh but with a bigger battery) was great. It had nice things like a mechanical handbrake and a gear lever that you could stick in reverse while still going forward rather than having to stop with your foot on the brake. Madame liked the light airy cabin too, the latest one is pretty much all gloomy black. It was reliable, absolutely nothing went wrong, and cost buttons to run.
The latest 52kWh Zoé obviously goes much futher, has Android Auto and a generally better spec but is more staid, I'm hoping a change to Michelin Cross Climates will give it the agility the original Zoé had. It had a processor replaced under waranty when it put up some alarming messages so hasn't been 100% reliable even if hasn't broken down.
We've had a 15 plate Zoé for a couple of years. It gets used for short trips in and around town where a bike wont work. We got it just before the prices for sh vehicles took off (£4k I think we paid) and its on the £40 per month battery lease. Last year it did 2k miles according to the MOT. I like how small it is compared the eTron and choose it everytime for short journeys.
Bad things - the 12v battery needed replacing long before it would don an ICE car apparently with a service interval for replacement of 3 years.
It occasionally throws some truly terrifying error messages and lights on the dash, which have generally disappeared next time I come to it - it's quite picky about charging stations and the earthing of them apprently.
It's a great wee car that gets us about 50 miles range, which is more than enough really.
Tesla (especially M3 owners) – what’s the build quality actually like?
Mine was a 2019 California build and the only issue I had with the build was one of the rear brake light clusters was always steamed up and had water in it (because led lights don't generate the heat of trad bulbs the water never dries off). I possibly could have got it replaced under warranty but didn't bother. The only other criticism I'd have of the model 3 is the auto full beam and auto wipers didn't work that well to the point where I chose to do it all manually (now got an ID.3 and the auto full beam/auto wipers work perfectly). Apparently the new China built M3s are better build quality, but on speaking to a few customers who have the newer build, the auto full beam and auto wipers don't appear to have improved, as they seemed to generaly agree with my criticism. Having said that the advantages far out weight any minor niggles, it's a great car IMO
I think this is where Tesla have it nailed tbh, bit like Apple with the UI for iPhone, Tesla and the way their cars integrate charging to the route just looks fantastic.
It’ll get there, but it’s not there now. I don’t really understand why there’s no competing integrated solution to mimic teslas.
ages ago I read somewhere that Tesla were aiming to be a power company - their main aim was to run and profit from a global charging network open to all, as they are currently trialling in some countries. Producing their own cars and helping to shape and drive EV development was merely a stepping stone/side business to acheiving this. May have just stemmed from a random Elon Tweet though...
0-90% in ten minutes for a standard battery.
Twitter keeps trying to sell me a Wuling Hongguang Mini EV. I actually quite like it & for 90% of our yearly trips it'd be fine. Just hire a van for the other 10%
This is interesting:
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/california-ban-gas-petrol-cars-b2151933.html
I'm surprised California have only just matched the UK in terms of non EV new sales ban, they're typically very tough on car emissions.
New Model 3 Long range, 293 miles at mostly 70mph with 10% battery still left.
Puts into perspective just how rubbish some EV's ranges are 🙁
What's the consensus on granny charger (3 pin) chargers ?
I've got a mid term rental EV coming next week whilst waiting for my actual company car to be supplied (circa a year away) and would like to make an occasional home charge - most likely on a Saturday night where I don't have access to my usual workplaces very cheap 7kW charger but will need to add some charge every other weekend (I have a total 250 miles work of driving to do every other weekend to pick kids up and drop them off etc and also likely to want to go somewhere in the middle too - likely outside of the cars range). I guess such a cable come in useful for overnight stays elsewhere too maybe.
I don't plan on having a home charger installed for at least 9-12 months (long story).
The e-tron that's coming apparently doesn't come with a 3 pin cable, so I would have to buy one - looks like about £200 (I will work out whether that pays for itself in saved public charging / convenience over the year or so I'll have this car), but are the safety concerns I've heard about real, or is this just something touted by the charge point companies ?
You'll have to elaborate on the safety concerns you're worried about for detailed answers.
If you have a suitably rated breaker in your electric box, a suitably rated cable to the socket and a suitably rated 3-pin socket, there's not a lot to worry about. If you're really worried about home electrical safety get rid of the clothes drier, oven, hob, toaster and even the fridge... before the electric car. The charger blocks check the earth and won't work if your house electrics are poorly earthed.
If you're worried about spontanous combustion fire risk then don't worry as much as an ICE car as fires are less common. However, they are apparently harder to put out.
I do most of my charging using the 3.2kW power block that came with a 52kWh Zoé. I rarely get home under 20% and stop charging at 90% so 12h is enough. The e-tron has a bigger battery so would take a bit longer.
What safety concerns?
I've used my granny charger a few times. Just like plugging anything else in to charge. The only issue is that I'm not sure mine is waterproof, and the cable on the car side isn't very long. This means leaving the charger itself on the ground where you are charging it which means a bucket over the top or something if it's going to be wet. Others might have longer cables.
You reduce the current on mine, if you are for example charging from a more limited supply e.g. a camp site.
Puts into perspective just how rubbish some EV’s ranges are
I make that 4.1 miles/kWh. Worse than my car.
I make that 4.1 miles/kWh. Worse than my car.
Is that while doing normal motorway speeds?
Also I get 4.46 miles/kWh.
Well since the Tesla was tested at 70mph I also am citing 70mph driving yes. I get between 4.5 and 4.7 miles/kWh at 70mph on the motorway, the trips I've done have been mid to high teens celcius.
Point I am making is that whilst Tesla seem to be great at whipping up Apple style adulation they are efficient cars, but not incredibly so and not the most efficient thing on the road either.
The model 3 about the same as the Zoé on that sort of journey, Molgrips, and probably yours, but now compare with a jaguar. For the accomodation provided and performance potential the Model 3 long range is very impressive IMO. The economy of a small hatch with the performance of a super car. Give credit where credit is due.
Edit: I see you've edited with three times the text of the original post, Molgrips. Even with the edit I think you are being overly critical of the Model 3, the efficiecy in that vid test is excellent by any standards..
The best thing they've done IMO is fit 76kWh of battery into a saloon car (charger network aside).
A Hyundai Ioniq is a much more usable and long-range comfortable family car than a Zoe, incidentally, which is why we went for one. Not as plush as an M3 of course but then it's about 2/3 the price.
Also when I'm looking at EVs with potentially 2.6 m/kWh efficiency at 70mph, 4.5 is incredible... 🤣😭
Yeah, some are pretty poor, hard to figure out why. The Bjorn Nyland only gets 180 miles from an Ioniq 5 at 75mph, which is not great. Obvs that car is not aero. There just aren't many aero cars with big batteries. I think the Hyundai Kona and the Kia one are not much less efficient than mine and have a longer range battery option.
Aero is the main thing affecting efficiency I think, after temperature and the need to heat the batteries and use energy for that.
Unfortunately if you want something with masses of interior space it ain't going to be aerodynamic.
The Tesla isn't particularly remarkable but it's still good to see decent efficiency and long ranges at 'normal' motorway speeds.
A Hyundai Ioniq is a much more usable and long-range comfortable family car than a Zoe
Zoé 395km range, Ioniq 311km. If you charge when there are 50km left the usable range is 345km versus 261km. That's being objective. As for the Model 3 it's in another league, at least another 200km.
Comfort is subjective, we both find the Zoé seats great on long trips including Pau to Poland in three days.
Accomodation, there's surprisingly little differenc between the three in parctical terms for us. Two people, two 27.5 enduro Mtbs and camping kit go in any of the three. Five people go in any of the three but they'll be more restricted on lugage in the Zoé.
If you can afford the Model 3 it's a no brainer. It's just as efficient, goes much further on a charge, has a specific charging network and is subjectively nicer inside - though I perfer the Zoé seats as I'm not big or fat and don't like sticky, sweaty seat coverings.
The Zoe was a great car, no question, but it felt more like a city car with a more upright driving position. Much preferred the Ioniq EV on the test drive. But nothing against Zoes and of course there is a long range option which I didn't have; however I knew I didn't need it.
Aero is the main thing affecting efficiency I think, after temperature and the need to heat the batteries and use energy for that.
Yes - I also think a heat pump is important. I think that Hyundai/Kia are good because they can scavenge heat from the motor and inverter and divert it to the cabin or battery, or even from the battery to the cabin if you are driving fast enough to generate it.
5th Gear I think got 4 miles/kWh from their Ioniq 5, but I don't think they were going 70mph. Or at least, the guy did; the woman couldn't get close.
The Ioniq 6 is going to be a great alternative to the M3 I reckon. The BMW i4 too but that's expensive.
This carwow vid says 3.7 from the Kia EV6 at 70mph, at least I'm assuming that's what they are doing on the motorway (I fast forwarded a lot) and it's winter when they do it.
In France at least it's only the Teslas that are worth driving at 70mph (or the local 130km limit) on a long journey, for two reasons: 1/ they're more efficient at that speed than anything else unless you know different. 2/ you can be sure to fast charge them as and when necessary - with just about any other vehicle you're better off driving slower to go further between charges and spend less time on the 50kW max chargers if you can find one that works and don't end up on 22kW.
There are ads for the fast charging potential of the Ioniq 5 on TV here, thing is that there isn't a charger that will deliver more than about 40kW within the Ioniq 5's range of where I live. Like many people I still live in a world where it's the charging speed of chargers that dictates the optimum speed to do a long journey in anything other than a Tesla. An Audi e-tron would be slower than a Zoé/Leaf/Ioniq to Paris from here because it would spend more time charging. A Tesla would do the trip at the autoroute speed limit on two supercharges and be there hours before.
What safety concerns?
Heating / overheating of the plug, socket and 13A wiring. Unlike dishwashers, heaters etc it's likely to be "at load" for longer periods of time and more often.
There's quite a bit of noise about it if you google it, but it mostly seems to come from suppliers of home chargers who clearly have a vested interest in people buying a charger.
7k miles into an ioniq 5 awd. 3.5 kw per mile average. I like to enjoy driving it on country roads and haven’t changed into an economy seeking miser in changing to this car. that mileage involves quite a decent amount of 170 mile motorway journeys. V happy with car and charging (ultra fast dc) when needed but as already stated 95% is done slowly at home. Wouldn’t go back to diesel.
The socket I use is a "Greenup" which is EV specific. It has a greenup tag in it which communicates with the charger block to tell the block to charge at 3.2kW, if the block doesn't detect a green up tag it will only charge at 2kW.
The greenup socket is wired with thick cable from a 20A 30mA differential breaker. No risk of overlading at 3.2kW.
All the normal sockets in my house are 16A rated with normal 2.5 cable and a 16A breaker fed from a 30mA differential breaker. No risk of overloading at 2kW (9A)
On campsites I've charged on a camping socket with only a 10A breaker. Works just fine at 2KW.
Heating / overheating of the plug, socket and 13A wiring. Unlike dishwashers, heaters etc it’s likely to be “at load” for longer periods of time and more often.
True, but like I say you can throttle them down.
it’s only the Teslas that are worth driving at 70mph (or the local 130km limit)
Yeah the 70mph UK limit helps us a fair bit. 130km/h would make a serious dent in range.
@edukator the Tesla may be more efficient at 70mph but that doesn't mean it's not using more power overall. It's just using the minimum watts per unit of speed, the laws of physics still apply otherwise.
That doesn't contradict anything I've said.
On the subject of efficiency, I really hope Mercedes make the EQXX - and that I can afford one one day. 7.2 miles/kWh and just look at it.
https://media.mercedes-benz.com/vision_eqxx
😂😂
Do yourselves a favour and do not engage with molgrips when it comes to Tesla. I'm bot sure why but he has a vendetta against them, it's like arguing with mince, you won't win.
Why is it “worth driving” at that speed if it’s using more power than a slower speed?
I think you've missed the point of Ed's post. I think he meant that the Tesla is the only car worth driving at that speed because the charging network is far superior.
Why is it “worth driving” at that speed if it’s using more power than a slower speed? It may be using that power more efficiently but its still using more power.
You missed this vital part:
with just about any other vehicle you’re better off driving slower to go further between charges and spend less time on the 50kW max chargers if you can find one that works and don’t end up on 22kW.
Because it's not just about power use, it's about charging. If you drive the Tesla at 70mph, you use more energy, but it can also charge at a fast speed (and you have to charge more due to driving faster). But drive a car with slower charging at the same speeds you'll use the same power but spend more time charging, so you're better of driving slower, spending more time driving but less time wasted charging at slower speeds. Tortoise and hare...
Squirrelking has deliberately missed the point of my posts and is hoping for a rise from his provocation. But thanks for the support guys. He's doing the same on the energy thread and did the same on the swimmingpool water thread last week.
Do yourselves a favour and do not engage with molgrips when it comes to Tesla. I’m bot sure why but he has a vendetta against them
No I have a vendetta against fanbois. The cars are alright, efficient but badly made, the charging network is great, buy one if you want.
Well, the new electric price cap (for those not on cheaper overnight rates) basically means charging from home on the car I'm looking at is no cheaper than diesel.
52p per kWh at 3.0 miles per kWh works out around 16p a mile.
If your car does 4.5m/kWh it's around 11p a mile.
By comparison, diesel at 50mpg and 1.80 a litre is 16p a mile.
God knows what'll happen the to public charging prices...
I agree that there's no financial incentive to buy electric at present ta11pau1. It needs some political will to properly favour electic cars to change that as in Norway or Denmark. The war has had far more impact on gas and thus electricity prices than petrol prices. The cheap French nuclear energy is no longer available for export because their are so many reactors off line. Hopefully some of that is temporary. In the long term the world needs to increase generating capcity not only to cope with current demand but allow a transition to an economy that runs on electricity.
That requires post-WWII style planning, foresight and investment. Having a populist government in the hands of the speculators isn't going to yield the vchanges needed. The west used to mock the soviet five-year plans, we need 5, 10, 15, 20... year plans and have a leadership that doesn't plan beyond yesterday.