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No. I’m fitting home a solar/battery system, which along with an EV/off peak electricity deal makes it much cheaper.
What are you going for? I’ve vaguely half thought about this. Really though I don’t think an East / West facing roof in Scotland is going to do particularly well without doubling up on panels and putting them on both sides. Which sounds very expensive.
Nah it’s not expensive for most people who have a driveway. Costs me under £2 to drive the 80 miles to my parents and back, versus about £20 on diesel.
Similar cost saving for us, my commute costs at least £12 (probably nearer £15) in diesel and now usually costs under £1.50, unless I’m nightshift when it costs up to £4.50
I’m not quite sure what that’s going to go up to when my fixed energy deal expires in a few months. It’s also much more convenient than having to put diesel in every few days.
And prices will come right down as more chargers go in.
The price is dictated by wholesale electricity costs. Volume will reduce it a bit but fundamentally it's a traded commodity.
The price is dictated by wholesale electricity costs. Volume will reduce it a bit but fundamentally it’s a traded commodity.
The wholesale price is yes but public chargers are putting a huge markup on that. The markup will come down.
The wholesale price is yes but public chargers are putting a huge markup on that. The markup will come down.
I buy electricity and supply it to public chargepoints. Would you care to guess what the current markup is?
Dunno. I was talking about the markup between the charge point suppliers and the end consumer. I'd assumed that was high be ause Gridserve and co are expanding and EVs are currently being bought by richer people so they are milking it whilst they can before widespread adoption and competition forces prices down.
Do tell.
And the lease we are paying is no more than a similar diesel car.
What car is this? I can't find any electric car leases for the same cost as their diesel counterpart. I have been looking recently.
I'm not going to disclose which chargepoints, but once you account for borrowing and maintenance costs, we're currently making a loss. You need to remember that the domestic electricity market is capped at a lower unit price than you can buy electricity wholesale.
I assume everyone is leasing ? Be it company or private schemes ? The 'all in' schemes look interesting (maintenance and insurance).
With covid, things have changed a bit for us. We're both WFH at least part of the time, and I've switched back to cycle commuting when in the office, so buying any new car is a waste at present.
Had I been in the office 5 days a week, then I'd probably have got a city electric car as we get free recharging at work, but still kept the ICE cars for longer journies. As it's happened we've picked up a cheap Aygo for daughter to learn in and to bail petrol head son out whilst he replaces a blown engine. Plan is MrsF or me uses that for the commute/shopping as MPG in town is in the high 50's.
What car is this? I can’t find any electric car leases for the same cost as their diesel counterpart. I have been looking recently.
my experiance also .
for those that look at not only the point of use cost but the total life time cost of owning a vehicle
MY spreadsheet for costs said at my milage it would take 12 years to get to break even.
The more you drive the less time that takes but the car is the main issue - not the propulsion method.
"picked up a cheap Aygo"
Hard to argue with that for low cost low impact motoring for those that do low milage. Ended up doing the same my self.
Thanks for the insight @ransos
I can’t find any electric car leases for the same cost as their diesel counterpart.
Mine is an Ioniq and is costing £206/mo for 10k miles over 2 years. It's not that cheap now though, so my experience might be out of date! It was significantly cheaper than any of the other cars I'd actually want at the time.
Cheapest EV on Autotrader now is a VW up at £227, with a similarly specced petrol at £199.
£287 for a Golf base spec, £329 for an ID.3 which I suppose you could consider higher spec if you wanted to, since it's equivalent to an auto.
Can anyone recommend a resource that'll show expected charging times e.g.
If I got car X at 77kw battery its full charging times from below are...?
a) 3 pin plug
b) 7kw charger...
...etc
Thanks
the other thing i found when shopping over the last 3 months is .....
can get a heavy discount on brand new diesel/petrol models.
no ones budging on electric models from RRP (widening the payback time)
Also being quoted anywhere from 6 months to "unknown" on electric models. - and being fair - also on some diesel models - but for the most part diesel and petrol much more availible.
hence buying of an aygo style car till things calm down.
MAny of these issues go away if leasing and the payback gap does come down if your going from a leased diesel car to a leased electric car by the mechanics of leasing... but if your used to buying/owning for a long time then its fair jump in monetary terms to go to a lease.
I did a 600 mile round trip in the e-Tron on Friday down to Cheshire and back.
Proper 4 seasons in 1 day stuff, with heavy snow on the A702 south of Edinburgh.
On the way south, I turned up at the Ionity charger at Gretna services to find it fully occupied (4 chargers) with 2 others waiting. Only had to wait 15 mins before plugging in though.
It was interesting that there were 4 Porsche Tacyans, a Mercedes EQC and another e-Tron charging or in the queue; all at the premium end of the scale. I guess hardly surprising when it costs 69p per kwh.
The next stop was at Charnock Richard on a, Ecotricity charger. It's interesting that the on screen display shows a 120 kW charge speed, but it only charged at 50 kW, which is what is also reported on Zapmap. At 30p it was pretty cheap.
I suspect that charging added 2 hours to the total journey time - not bad, but not great either. We definitely need more faster chargers.
It was interesting that there were 4 Porsche Tacyans, a Mercedes EQC and another e-Tron charging or in the queue; all at the premium end of the scale. I guess hardly surprising when it costs 69p per kwh.
The other possibility is that they are heavy users for work e.g. reps etc, because they will be paying a lot less than 69p.
Can anyone recommend a resource that’ll show expected charging times e.g.
If I got car X at 77kw battery its full charging times from below are…?
a) 3 pin plug
b) 7kw charger…
…etc
Thanks
A 3 pin plug granny cable, typically delivers about 3kW per hour, so the charge will take 77/3 = 25 and a bit hours from dead to brimmed.
7 kW - 11 hours
etc. etc.
Except charging isn't completely linear, it slows down as the battery reaches capacity, but for route planning etc., simple division works. Just remember that you're very rarely charging from empty.
https://www.electrical-installation.org/enwiki/Electric_Vehicle_and_EV_charging_fundamentals
The other possibility is that they are heavy users for work e.g. reps etc, because they will be paying a lot less than 69p.
Quite possibly, or on subscriptions free with the car etc. Either way, there were no Zoes or Leafs waiting.
richardkennerley
Full MemberTook delivery of ours a couple of weeks ago, Octavia iV. First impressions are it’s great!
The claimed electric range is a bit dubious, a full charge puts 31 miles on the battery, in full electric mode I reckon it’s much less than that. Not got an accurate measurement though.
I have had one of these for a couple of months now. I have a 15 mile each way commute and I very nearly do it on one charge there and back. I have a hilly Cumbrian run but back roads so 60 mph max. I am more careful accelerating in this to keep the battery energy usage at around the halfway point on the energy/rev counter dial. I have only had two days above 8 degrees and that seems to step the range up.
I think the car is great and the switch between battery and engine is seemless and sometimes I would not realise it had happened but I can see the revs on the dial. I have done about 2,500 miles in it with three 200 mile trips and one 100 mile trip pulling a caravan over the A66 from Cumbria over the pennines to Scotch Corner route and the petrol usage is about 7.5p per mile. I have electric on top of that of course although it is free at my place of work. I am paying 16.7p for my electricity as we more than likely charge during the day and my wife often does the school run in this car, electric use works out less than half the cost of petrol.
On the long runs I think it works out similar in total cost to my old diesel Qashqai
It was interesting that there were 4 Porsche Tacyans, a Mercedes EQC and another e-Tron charging or in the queue; all at the premium end of the scale. I guess hardly surprising when it costs 69p per kwh.
I get 12 months subscription to ionity when I bought my BMW. Instead of 69 per Kwh , its a mere 26p. Im glad they chose them as they have the 350kw fast chargers ( though im limited to a mere 150 charging speed)
In a few months Ionity will be full of Hyundais & Kia’s as they can take advantage of the super fast charging speeds.
Late-2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance here. First EV.
Range – anywhere between 50 and 75% of claimed, it’s dire TBH, with upcoming energy price increases it’ll (almost) cost as much to run as a diesel 3-Series BMW.
Performance – Having come from an BMW M2 and then an X3MC, I can confirm it’s astonishingly quick, but pointlessly quick, it’s a sterile experience.
Function – The iPad fixes a problem that didn’t exist, the lack of buttons, speed in front of you, is tedious and distracting. The auto lights and wipers are rubbish, as is the inconsistent regen braking. The wheels/rim design makes curbing inevitable. You can’t see the door handles at night. Don’t buy the key, it has no buttons, but does at the same time, they rarely do what you expect.
Other - Other divers seem to get Tesla rage, it's odd.
There doesn't seem to be many fully well sorted cars out there currently. My Hyundai is great as a car, mostly, but it has shit infotainment and the onslaught of bongs and bings is beginning to grate. In the pics the Ioniq 5 seems to have a similar system. The ID4 has its issues too apparently.
Can anyone recommend a resource that’ll show expected charging times e.g.
If I got car X at 77kw battery its full charging times from below are…?
a) 3 pin plug
b) 7kw charger……etc
Podpoint have some pretty good car-by-car guides - click through on the model you're interested in and it gives charging time or miles of range per hour. https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles
Fastned have a good collection of rapid charging curves for the different models - ie when charging speed drops off as they fill up https://support.fastned.nl/hc/en-gb/sections/4409800889105-Fast-charging
It was interesting that there were 4 Porsche Tacyans, a Mercedes EQC and another e-Tron charging or in the queue; all at the premium end of the scale. I guess hardly surprising when it costs 69p per kwh.
Neither the Porsche nor the Mercedes have great range, but they do have very rapid charging (225kw for the Porsche, 112kw for the Mercedes) The Ionity Chargers are the only ones which can reliably deliver this. On a 50Kw charger, neither the Porsche nor the Merc will get to even 50% inside the 1hr charging window, so it makes sense that they'd aim for the proper rapid chargers even if more expensive.
Can anyone recommend a resource that’ll show expected charging times e.g.
If I got car X at 77kw battery its full charging times from below are…?
a) 3 pin plug
b) 7kw charger……etc
It's fairly simple math. 25-30hours on a 3pin plug as you probably won't get 3kw, it'll be between 2.5 and 2.9kw. And around 11-13hours on a 7kw as again it'll vary on a number of things including what's happening in your house at the time. Ours usually charges at 6.9kw for the first 85-90% (depends on external temperature) and then drops down, but it's not unusual at work for it to be anywhere between 5.5 and 6.7kw/h. I've never got any higher at work (Pod Point).
Range – anywhere between 50 and 75% of claimed, it’s dire TBH, with upcoming energy price increases it’ll (almost) cost as much to run as a diesel 3-Series BMW.
Out of curiosity, what sort of speeds are you doing in it? Be honest, we’re all adults here.
My Model 3 LR has averaged 239Wh/mile over 5000 mostly motorway miles, and that’s setting the cruise control to 72. If you’re doing 85, your required power will be almost 75% more.
Efficiency of an EV drops off a LOT above 60mph as it’s a linear power drive and drag proportional to v squared is the biggest factor.
Even paying 30p/KW on the SVR from April it is half the cost of petrol.
I can’t believe anyone looking to own an EV long term isn’t looking into options to pay less for electricity.
My smart meter goes in next week. Once I’ve analysed the timings of my leccy usage I will see if my proposed solar/battery solution will work.
Power required goes up with the cube of the speed, which is why EVs can struggle on motorways, particularly into headwinds,
@dantsw13 - re the paying less for electricity. Spot on. I have a Tesla Powerwall at home, it charges my Model S and takes care of about 50% electricity on a daily basis, more in the summer. A bit of an outlay, but you can power cut-proof yourself and save yourself some money over time.
This certainly helps with charging costs and general consumption anyway.
https://electrek.co/ have some great information on home charging technologies
Thanks for the above. Work are refocusing company car policy to favor full elwctric and installing 11kw chargers in the car park, so its useful to know how much i can top up during a day at the office.
Regarding one of the previous comments I can't imagine why someone spending 60 grand on an Audi e Tron is particularly bothered about the cost of the rapid charger per kWh, surely it's a drop in the ocean regards the total cost of ownership/use by that point?
It's like when people buy an 80 grand range rover then whinge that the road tax is 500 quid a year
@dantsw13 be really interested to learn more about your plans and analysis!!
@lamp that’s really interesting. I’ve been looking at solar and battery, and have come to conclusion you need battery to really make solar work, but hadn’t thought about just battery!!! We are octopus Go, so could charge powerwall off peak, and discharge throughout the day at significantly lower cost.
so its useful to know how much i can top up during a day at the office.
How far is it to work?
@lamp that’s really interesting. I’ve been looking at solar and battery, and have come to conclusion you need battery to really make solar work, but hadn’t thought about just battery!!! We are octopus Go, so could charge powerwall off peak, and discharge throughout the day at significantly lower cost.
The main caveat with battery-only is that it is currently dependent on single tariff from a single provider. If the discrepancy between peak and off-peak rates reduces which could happen if more people have BEVs then the equation may not stack up.
If you have solar you can export using Octopus Agile which tracks market rates. Over the last 3 months, during solar hours, this has averaged around 20p per kWh and over the last year at least 10p per kw/hr. So the difference between import and export narrower (lessening the case for a battery).
My gut feeling is that solar generates during daylight hours when people are up and about and therefore energy should be generally useful. Therefore it does not make much sense to me to store it.
P.S. You can't have Octopus Go and Octopus agile outgoing.
Re: charge points. My podpoint just works, install was great. It doesn’t have any smart features, all the timing etc is managed by the car, if that’s what you want I can recommend one.
Podpoint have added scheduled charging to their app now, so not a problem if you have a car like mine, which has no charging scheduling.
Been using my Podpoint for almost a year, with no problems.
How far is it to work?
Well, it could be al out anywhere in the UK but here I was referring London to Gloucester in a - predicted - Kia EV6, so 220 miles with 2-3hrs top up will release any anxiety, but if I can I'll be leaving it on all day.
I say predicted because the policy at work is being revised to reward EV drivers and I don't know what I can get yet, but a little bird told me an EV6 was in the ball park.
They current 320d will remain as the other car so very long range trips in the depths of winter could be done in that leaving the EV6 for school runs on those days, depending on who Work views that.
so very long range trips in the depths of winter could be done in that leaving the EV6 for school runs on those days,
That's my plan - if a journey looks like it'll cause major stress swap with the Mrs for that day.
@nothernremedy - i think V2H is coming along soon with the next generation of home EV chargers and so the battery storage can be your car. Spend the money on solar? You'd just have to be on top of when to set the app to no discharge when the cars needed for a longer journey. Quite how the lease companies/car manufacturers (warranty!) see this charge/discharge with no miles scenario I'm not sure.
EV6 is very nice. 220 mile round trip with an 8 hr top up on a free work charger sounds perfect, even in the coldest weather.
Any longer trip you should be stoping anyway, and 15 minutes on a Gridserve/Ionity will give at least 50% top up on an EV6.
Any longer trip you should be stoping anyway, and 15 minutes on a Gridserve/Ionity will give at least 50% top up on an EV6.
I agree, but also if a trips that long I mostly prefer to work on a Train.
I don’t blame you, especially if work fund rather train/taxi.
I was very interested in the EV6, and ended up going for the Ioniq5, as it was much cheaper on my work scheme.
Regarding one of the previous comments I can’t imagine why someone spending 60 grand on an Audi e Tron is particularly bothered about the cost of the rapid charger per kWh, surely it’s a drop in the ocean regards the total cost of ownership/use by that point?
It’s like when people buy an 80 grand range rover then whinge that the road tax is 500 quid a year
Very true, but I didn't see or hear anyone complaining.
I was very interested in the EV6, and ended up going for the Ioniq5, as it was much cheaper on my work scheme.
I'm likely to be juggling similar decisions when the Policy is concluded and shared, of course I quite like the i4 ****ers sales managers car but suspect my employer won't see the same way I do 😀
Yours sounds like a company car scheme rather than Sal Sac.
Some rough numbers/mo:
I5 top spec £503
EV6 Top spec £620
I4/Etron/EQC were all £650+ for base models
These are all inclusive packages 15,000/yr