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A lot of car companies have played it safe with EVs derived from fossil fuelled cars in their existing range. Packaging issues can only be overcome with a ground-up approach.
I think I’m about to order an Ioniq5 through my work scheme! Top spec car is cheaper than an Enyaq once you add all the packs i want.
A lot of car companies have played it safe with EVs derived from fossil fuelled cars in their existing range. Packaging issues can only be overcome with a ground-up approach.
Which is what Kia have done with the Niro and what people are starting to do with the other cars. Tesla had no history when they started, they had a market to take, not one to keep, so they could afford to take risks with the design.
Also, their QC is poor. Panel gaps are really bad on all the cars I have seen.
My local Kia dealer(Villach, AT) now has the EV6 available to test. I didn't get to drive it yet but I did get to have a good nose around on Monday.
For me it looks a lot better in the flesh. From the picture I always preferred the Ioniq 5 but now I have seen them both my opinion has changed. The cockpit feels premium and is very nice. The back seats were less comfortable than I expected, mainly due to height between floor and seats. There was plenty of leg space. My major disappointment is with the boot space. I have an E Niro which I have to give back in August and the boot space seemed less usable in the EV6. It is certainly deeper but the sloping roof cuts down on usable space. This was the 2WD version and the front space was just enough for some charging cables, which is fine, but I guess the AWD version is almost pointless.
Considering the E-Niro has been a little too small for our family uses I think we won't now consider the EV6. We don't need the performance and premium feel. The new EU MG5 comes out here in Q1 so I hope that suits our needs and can be delivered on time. Only thing it misses is AWD will would be preferred considering out local roads in winter.
Also, their QC is poor. Panel gaps are really bad on all the cars I have seen
Apparently the Chinese built ones (now shipping to Europe due to the delays with the Berlin plant) are better build quality. No clue if they come with Communist Party embedded malware though...
I think Tesla will still be riding high for 3-4 years but then it's customer service/after care issues will start to bite once other manufacturers offer a decent range of alternatives. They're currently 99.999% about shifting cars, which is great until something does go wrong with your car and you need them to care about sorting it out
but the old car manufacturers will (have to) catch up I presume.
I don’t think they can get their heads around the software tbh..
I got an immersive sound feature added a few weeks ago, just appeared overnight.
How many times is everything an option that can’t be retrofitted when you buy a car.
When Im more flush I’ll probably spend a few quid on upgrading the software for the enhanced autopilot or wait for the sub service for the month I actually drive long distance.
The Tesla software is also very good, can’t see the others keeping up with releases when they will be wanting to shift you into another car if you wanted that new software feature released in the newest car.
The other brands are happy to rinse you with every option ticked.
I've just emailed MG asking for my order to be rolled over onto the new version.
Realistically it probably won't make that much difference but given my ordered car is due late December and the new versions are Q1 2022 then I might as well.
I don’t think they can get their heads around the software tbh..
I got an immersive sound feature added a few weeks ago, just appeared overnight.
How many times is everything an option that can’t be retrofitted when you buy a car.
That'll come, because Tesla have started doing it. They aren't stupid, but they kept their existing business model because it suited them. Why give customers new stuff on their existing cars, when you can persuade them to upgrade their car to get the new stuff?
Wait, Teslas let you watch Netflix whilst driving? You know, I'm pretty sure that this tech has been around for a while but fairly sure it's a bad idea for a few reasons...
A lot of car companies have played it safe with EVs derived from fossil fuelled cars in their existing range. Packaging issues can only be overcome with a ground-up approach.
That's happening now - Hyundai/Kia, VW etc. Remember that the traditional manufacturers still have to fund their move to EV by continuing to make the ICE cars that they invested millions in, so they still needed to use their existing plant. Tesla got their money from investors (I assume) so were able to start fresh with new factories and new platforms from the beginning.
Excellent efficiency
Really though? They claim 310 miles from the Model 3 Performance, What Car got 239 miles, and they got 2.8 miles per kWh. That's not really very efficient at all. I get 4.5-4.8 from my car, on open roads and motorways. And given we usually do town driving we actually get more than the quoted WTLP range.
Another listicle puts the Model 3 about the same as my car tested at 4.5m/kWh.
Allowing users to charge to 100% so that you can claim it’s got more range, but then telling them not to do it to prolong the life.
I mean, you could do this every day but you'd need to have a really specific set of circumstances for it to work (ie, a trip that's exactly at the limit of the car's range most of the time). Tesla would still warranty the battery if you did.
In reality if you think you're going to need to fast charge en-route it's quicker to surf in the lower percentages of the battery because that's when it charges fastest - it's something like 250kW from 0-25%, then it tapers off.
With their LFP batteries Tesla say that you can and should charge them to 100% when at home.
At 74 mph my Model 3 LR averages 232 Wh/mile. So charging to 90% and not letting it fall below 10% still gives a usable range of nearly 300 miles, and a supercharger will add electricity at ~900 miles/hour. My made-in-China Model 3 has no panel gap or paint issues.
At 74 mph my Model 3 LR averages 232 Wh/mile
That's 4.3 miles/kWh. That's decent, probably largely due to it being an aerodynamic car shaped vechicle rather than an SUV I would guess.
Over the air updates
I read that as 'built-in hacking opportunity' - not something I would want on a very desirable theft target or something with life-threatening failure consequences.
I made a useful bingo card for contributors to this thread.
Nice one Flaperon. You could also add "I don't like Elon Musk"
That's just a reason not to buy a Tesla, not EVs more generally.
I read that as ‘built-in hacking opportunity’ – not something I would want on a very desirable theft target or something with life-threatening failure consequences.
To my knowledge nobody has pinched a model 3 in the Uk to date. It's one of the bestselling cars out there.
I don't think anyone has hacked one either.
Why do people keep making up reasons for Tesla's being shit? 🤷♂️
You missed 'I haven't got a drive'.
Or
"I frequently need to jump in my car and drive 500 miles without a toilet break/peeing in a boittle, stop for 5 minutes to refuel and drive another 500 miles."
something with life-threatening failure consequences.
Cars fail catastrophically without the need for over the air updates anyway 🙂
Why do people keep making up reasons for Tesla’s being shit?
Fanboi-ism
Musk is a ****
Their approach comes from the software/tech industry, and as that's an industry I work in I think I'd rather not have that applied to cars.
Anyway I don't think they are shit, they are good EVs but not (any more) head and shoulders above the rest. I'm not looking at buying one though because I think they are horrendously ugly (this coming from someone who drove a Mk2 Prius for 15 years), I don't like the giant tablet design (personal preference), the ones you can tow a caravan with are way out of my price range, and the reports of quality issues put me off.
My actual reason is 'I don't do enough miles to make it worthwhile from an environmental or economic perspective'.
Another thing I noticed is insurance. A mk1 leaf is group 22 and that's pretty much the cheapest, slowest, least desirable ev.
But I look forward to trying one someday.
Another thing I noticed is insurance.
Our insurance is basically the same as it always has been. I didn't check the groups. But yes, don't rush out and buy one just because.
Not sure what I should really do if we go to one car after the Hyundai goes back. Is it really worth leasing say, an iD4, or should I just buy my own Passat GTE? Or, given the low miles we'd do in such a scenario, just get a diesel.
Another thing I noticed is insurance. A mk1 leaf is group 22 and that’s pretty much the cheapest, slowest, least desirable ev.
That's weird. I'm paying about £360 for fully comp on a new e-Niro
I find the Tesla bashing weird. I know a lot of people with Teslas, there's got to be 6 or 7 on my road (30 houses) alone. They seem happy, and don't seem to suffer the terrible quality problems people in the UK moan about.
Yes - lots of cars built ground up as EV's.... I started listing with Tesla, Kia, Hyundai, VW/Seat/Skoda, Audi, ...
I find the Tesla bashing weird.
I don't bash them, I point out where I think they are being a bit sneaky, and I point out that they aren't the most incredible cars out there any more.
I don’t bash them, I point out where I think they are being a bit sneaky,
But you are happy to consider a VW ID4 from a company that was fined billions for cheating emissions tests which affected the health of millions of people then fined another 100 million for forming a steel purchasing cartel then another £752 million for colluding with BMW and Daimler to restrict the deployment of improved emissions equipment.
But you are happy to consider a VW ID4 from a company that was fined billions for cheating emissions tests
Yes. I don't think VW are morally superior. I just think that Tesla are sneaky. That alone probably wouldn't stop me from buying one.
I think acting illegally and being proven guilty multiple times trumps "being a bit sneaky" on the morals scale. Anyway its enough for me to boycott VW Group products
I'd be interested to know what you think "being a bit sneaky" means.
Give up, uponthedowns internet 'facts' trump actual ownership experience on here.
Give up, uponthedowns internet ‘facts’ trump actual ownership experience on here.
😉😃
Electrical resistance won't slow the blades, that's mechanical/physical resistance, like leaning against a wall. It's possible to add a resistor or some kind of device that would absorb some of the energy from the motor before passing it into the grid, but why would you want to do that?
Electrical resistance won’t slow the blades, that’s mechanical/physical resistance, like leaning against a wall. It’s possible to add a resistor or some kind of device that would absorb some of the energy from the motor before passing it into the grid, but why would you want to do that?
Electrical resistance will of course slow the blades. That's why a dynamo hub powering a light will have more drag than a dynamo hub with the light switched off.
Probably just as well you edited out your original post to remove the part about it being basic GCSE physics.
The insurance is weird, both our Soul and Expert are much higher groups than anything previous, and a lot of the quotes were an extra £350+ each on the Panda/Vivaro they replaced, but then a couple were much much cheaper. The Soul ended up £100 more expensive than the (2011) Panda a year which is fair, and the van ended up £100 cheaper than the 11 Vivaro. I think while they are higher group, this is overruled by data showing EVs are involved in less accidents, I guess 🤷
Yeah, but parts might be/are more expensive and damage _might_ be harder/more expensive to repair, so putting the premiums up a bit.
I _think_ our Niro will be more expensive than the Passat, but the way we have the Passat insured is on a per km basis with an ODB2 dongle, whereas the Niro is a fully comp, all you can eat thing
That’s why a dynamo hub powering a light will have more drag than a dynamo hub with the light switched off.
Thank you, that's a much better example than my effort with a turbo trainer.
If electrical resistance doesn't slow the blades, then it would also mean you can apply a bigger and bigger electrical load and the turbine will keep spinning at the same rate, meaning unlimited energy output!
It’s possible to add a resistor or some kind of device that would absorb some of the energy from the motor before passing it into the grid
The scenario we're talking about is unconnected wind turbines spinning freely. You could add an electrical load, instead of applying the brakes, but a 2MW resistor would be quite a beast, and then there's the question of what to do with all that heat. It's about 2,000 domestic electric heaters. This does raise another interesting point - while that would be a of heat/energy in one place, the entire maximum output of a 2MW wind turbine is only enough to heat a few hundred homes (which would drop considerably when you take the turbine utilisation factor and transmission/distribution losses into account).
I was trying to say there is a difference between mechanical and electrical resistance. Ok, connecting it up will add electrical resistance, which could slow the blades, but bear in mind that you want it to generate as much as possible and therefore have the least resistance between generation and point of use.
I imagine there is an electrical brake and possibly a mechanical lock aswell.
Well after making the switch to an EV a few weeks ago am now getting used to it and have just done our first long trip away at half term.
The thing that really stands out is how patchy and poorly maintained some of the charging infrastructure is. Staying at a YHA, we were reliant on finding a decent fast charger to be able to get around / back home.
There were three nearby, however one completely out of order, another completely refusing my card details in its app and the final one being at Lidl, allowing only 1 car to charge at a time even with multiple plugs available on the only fast charger in town requiring a 'dawn raid' to get charged.
The majority of our use is from / to home, so this is an occasional issue, but I don't see how without a national roll out of decent charge points, away from motorway service locations, there is going to be a shift of the majority to EVs?
I've also learned that when planning a trip, I will NOT rely on chargers owned by 'charge your car'
In the run till flat comparatives on Youtube the Teslas do very well. I'd take what Whatcar write with a pinch of salt. I predict you'd get the claimed figures, Molgrips, if you drove it like you do your Ioniq.
If you want to do cross-continent trips the Tesla long range cars and charging network still put the opposition to shame. If you want to do better you have to pay Porsche money and even that fails one you leave the Berlin-Munich 'bahn with it's 300 + kW public chargers.
Asking drivers not to charge to 100% unless they need to is just common sense. ICEs have a red line at say 7000rpm but I think if you test drove one and reved it to 7000 in first gear from cold the sales person would suggest it wiser to avoid that in the interest of engine life.
The majority of our use is from / to home, so this is an occasional issue, but I don’t see how without a national roll out of decent charge points, away from motorway service locations, there is going to be a shift of the majority to EVs?
I’ve also learned that when planning a trip, I will NOT rely on chargers owned by ‘charge your car’
I agree. With only 1% of the car parc EVs the non-Tesla charging network is barely adequate. We're way behind the curve of charger rollout needed if even 25% of cars are to be EVs.
We need more rapid chargers both at MSAs and on the highways. I also think we need them in hubs of at least 8 like Tesla superchargers and not scattered about in one's and twos at the back of some retail park or hamburger joint carpark. Moto Rugby services charge hub is a good example of what we need more of.
For longer trips you'll learn always to have a plan A, B and C for charging and also which networks to depend on and which to avoid. My go tos are Instavolt followed by Osprey and if I'm on a motorway include Gridserve. All these three take contacless payment so no faffing with apps or unreliable mobile signal. Never tried them yet but MFG get good reports- also contactless payment.
Avoid anything owned by BP which includes BP Pulse and CYC. Also avoid Geniepoint.
I was pleasantly surprised by the Geniepoint at a Morrisons on our journey. This gave us a great fast charge while we ate in the shop cafe. Will keep an eye out for the others though - thanks for the suggestions. CYC though - terrible - there was a charger in the main town car park near our accommodation, but was completely offline 🙁
I personally can't see any benefit for me to get an electric car. I am not spending £40k on a tin box.
I'm hybrid working now, but i used to cycle every day until I got splattered. Shattered spine, but back on bike now.
We're now back in 2 days a week. I will take the 90's MTB down the long route to the office via the canal, rather than sit in traffic. No car will change that. My current bike lugger is a 20 year old Nissan. It works. So why would I get rid. The environmental cost of getting a new leccy run around is huge. Fark that..
was pleasantly surprised by the Geniepoint at a Morrisons on our journey. This gave us a great fast charge while we ate in the shop cafe.
I got chatting to a couple who seemed to be having trouble with the GeniePoint charger at Morrisons Penrith. They couldnt get the charger started and it wouldn't release their car for over an hour. Fortunately I was able to point them literally across the street to the Instavolt chargers I was using. My other experience of Geniepoints has been something like one trouble free charge out of 4 and I avoid them if at all possible.
Use Zap-map to filter charger networks and types when you plan your journey and read the recent user postings to make sure a charger has been operational in the days before you commit to it.
couldnt get the charger started and it wouldn’t release their car
we had this with a pod point too - seems to be where its all done through the app and the connection to the charge point doesn't work. will bear this in mind in future thanks. Zap-map has been a godsend already - hadn't seen that can filter on networks too though.