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It’s a bit like owning a van for the one 300 mile trip a year you go to Newquay with your surfboard,when you only normally do 10 miles a day in a town with small streets and limited parking.
Not really. It’s a car, they can now so far more miles then they use to, batteries are becoming more efficient and can charge faster. Towing a trailer is just daft when you can stop well after 140 miles for a 10 minute top up.
Like the way they stop motorway services all setting their prices to [average fuel price] + 20%?
I don't think so actually. Most cars that get scrapped could have been fixed. They get crappy because people buy them cheap an then don't want to or can't spend money on fixing them. So the list of things wrong just piles up. Then they get scrappes because they are 'beyond economical repair' meaning the cost of repairs is a large portion of or more than the market value of the car.
But the market value is defined by who wants to buy it. And the more new cars that come in at the top of the market the lower the market value of the old ones becomes which results in more cars being scrapped. So yes, ordering your new EV (or other car) probably does result in a car being scrapped at the other end of the market.
So yes, ordering your new EV (or other car) probably does result in a car being scrapped at the other end of the market.
...but more so that if we'd ordered a new ICE rather than EV, which we would have done anyway.
Edit Just seen you said or other car - but I guess ultimately there is a finite life for cars that which is affected by whether people are prepared to look after them - but it's not relevant to the EV v ICE point really
I guess the pinch will come if Govt starts upping petrol/diesel tax to accelerate move to EVs making ICEs, especially old ICEs, less attractive
... and the older vehicles we sell on do have life after we sell them - I check on DVLA site for MOTs out of curiosity. Even the absolute shed of a Renault Trafic I traded against a new van had a at least another 3 years MOTs after I sold it on.
@dudeofdoom yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
I should also point out that 100-140 miles is the cold-mild ranges of the Zoe 40 previously mentioned as the "solution" to range extenders.
@flaperon so we're just going to ignore all the environmental benefits of dragging less unnecessary weight about and using less resources?
so we’re just going to ignore all the environmental benefits of dragging less unnecessary weight about and using less resources?
No, because I pointed out that the energy from a heavy vehicle is recovered through regenerative braking, and air resistance is the overwhelming factor.
I'm not just talking about power here. I'm talking about the resources used in the batteries, the component parts of the car itself (suspension has to be heavier to compensate), the extra wear on tyres and wear on road surfaces.
I keep getting told we have some sort of climate crisis on our hands, did I miss the bit where it was over?
Well, I’ve had the e-Tron a week. Done a 200 mile round trip in it and a couple of 100 mile days. It’s a lovely thing and living up to expectations. I’m currently sat at the Stirling low carbon hub on a free 50 kWh charger grabbing a few miles before heading back up the road. The trip is reporting 2.6 miles per kw vs 3.4 in the Zoe. Not too bad for such a heavy car.
Lovely aren’t they?
Just give mine a top up on a supercharger as the Mrs forgot to plug it in last night, over 60 miles added in just 10 minutes. As 350Kw become standard that would be 180 miles added, about the time it takes to hook up a trailer.
What we're the conditions for 2.6mi/kw? Motorway? Single carriage? Town?
Just seen you said or other car – but I guess ultimately there is a finite life for cars that which is affected by whether people are prepared to look after them – but it’s not relevant to the EV v ICE point really
Well I think it might be relevant. I suspect that the cars will be super reliable and all the maintenance cost will be rolled into a battery refresh after 15 years or so. So people might be prepare to bite the bullet, refurbish the battery and end up with as-new performance for less. And even without that the battery could have a high re-use value so the most battered old EV will be driving around with maybe £2k of value in it.
I think that in a decade or two the old car market will start to function quite differently, however we won't know exactly how until we get there!
@larry_lamb a mix of mainly fast a roads, dual carriageway and motorway. The Zoe gets used mainly for around town.
Mines got a towbar, so about these trailers 🤣
I should also point out that 100-140 miles is the cold-mild ranges of the Zoe 40 previously mentioned as the “solution” to range extenders.
Having owned a Zoé 40 for 2.5 years I can report that the only way to get under 140 miles was to drive unnecessarily fast. It would go up to the ski resort twice in Winter 2 x 110km = 220km = 140 miles and 2400m of climbing. A more realistic range for the Zoé 40 would be 140-180 miles. The car did the 281km (176miles) between the charge points in Marsas and Saumur via the N10 at truck speed in Summer and Winter.
"Emissions Elsewhere"
“Emissions Elsewhere”
Which for public heath is excellent. And lower total emissions is a bonus. You own a car, Redthunder, that much we know, if you must own a car then own one that produces much lower emissions both locally and in total.
“Emissions Elsewhere”
Better then “emissions everywhere”.
“Emissions Elsewhere”
😂😂😂😂😂
Got to love petrol head responses like this, suck it up EVs are coming whether you like it or not.
Had a look at the I pace at the jag dealer today. Absolutely lovely. Not as big as I feared, but big enough for a family of 4, dog and luggage. Anyone know how they compare size wise with an e tron ?
Guessing it was obvious the SUV lovers weren't gonna go for a smaller sensible sized option. If your needs dictate you need the range then batter in, if you generally don't then why wouldn't a smaller, lighter and cheaper option with an option to extend range on the rare occasions you need it not be a good thing?
Ed, those were figures taken from a review site, can't find the exact one but others give similar figures. I'd imagine any city car is going to perform poorly if you rag it, that's not news but people do like to maintain a sensible speed.
https://ev-database.uk/car/1131/Renault-Zoe-Q90-ZE40
“Emissions Elsewhere”
Every time a coal or gas fired power station is retired and replaced by renewables every single EV on the road gets cleaner whilst every single ICE car continues to pump out the same amount of CO2. Just accept it you are on the wrong side of the argument or don't accept it and keep trolling.
I keep getting told we have some sort of climate crisis on our hands, did I miss the bit where it was over?
It's not over and it is not going to be fixed, it is only going to get worse. Pissing about with policies for EV cars in 10 years time, lorries in 20 years time is going to make little difference.
If you really wanted to do anything about it you would stop production of new cars, limit car use and keep existing cars on the road (we have enough of them already). In 20 years time it would look like Cuba but so be it.
Now go and sell that to the car loving world...
Guessing it was obvious the SUV lovers weren’t gonna go for a smaller sensible sized option.
You guessed wrong. I went for the E Tron as it was the best deal on offer at the time. iD 3 or 4 weren’t available at the time which is what I wanted. I’ll look next time see what deal there are, if it’s a family hatch then I’ll go for one of those. The range will have increased by then, battery weight seems to be getting lighter as they become more efficient and charging speed much faster.
You stick with your trailer idea though.
If you really wanted to do anything about it you would stop production of new cars, limit car use and keep existing cars on the road (we have enough of them already). In 20 years time it would look like Cuba but so be it.
The way to do it - which is wider than cars - is to set everyone a CO2 allowance. Everything you buy has a CO2 charge food, goods, domestic heating, public transport, flights etc and when you've used it all up you can't buy anything more (maybe only basic food and domestic heating).
Products with a longer life eg cars you would have a monthly CO2 charge for the life of the vehicle (like a depreciating asset in accountancy). When the CO2 cost of building the car is used up, say after 12 years then the monthly CO2 charge reduces to zero. But obviously you continue use your CO2 allowance up on fossil fuels if you are keeping an old ICE running
Obviously none of this seems likely although it's technically possible (big central database plus phone app/CO2 ration chip and pin card required for every purchase). The political will and public support to do it are extremely unlikely to materialise.
Now go and sell that to the car loving world…
It's not just love of cars, I don't even think that's the biggest factor. It's that our entire economy is based on people being mobile. To get rid of cars you'd have to completely rethink how humans live on a huge scale. Now consider that we've spent 5 years almost entirely on Brexit and it was the key issue in the last election and you can see how impossible any kind of large scale rapid change is.
It’s not over and it is not going to be fixed, it is only going to get worse. Pissing about with policies for EV cars in 10 years time, lorries in 20 years time is going to make little difference.
It’s not just about the climate, it’s also about local air pollution which can be reduced by cutting emissions from the vehicle to zero.
To get rid of cars you’d have to completely rethink how humans live on a huge scale. Now consider that we’ve spent 5 years almost entirely on Brexit
Changing our dependence on travel could (not saying will) be approached gradually, with opportunities to adjust the approach. Brexit is an in or out step change, once done it's irreversible in the short term, which is one reason it was a big thing. I'm reminded of the Alec Issigonis quote.
Obviously none of this seems likely although it’s technically possible (big central database plus phone app/CO2 ration chip and pin card required for every purchase). The political will and public support to do it are extremely unlikely to materialise.
Yep. Not forgetting that they’ll allow you to offset with other people (for a cost)so all that will happen is the rich will still drive,fly,buy new cars and carry on business as usual ,well for the 6 months it takes for the other people to realise what they’ve signed up for a la poll tax and then it’ll be consigned to the bin due to it being political suicide.
Why is it so hard to imagine having a decent public transport system? I mean, I know why, its the UK but its not like we're stepping into the realms of sci-fi here.
@kerley I agree completely. Changing the drive train is just tinkering round the edges. We need proper solutions. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be the will to even consider them on a societal scale.
Why is it so hard to imagine having a decent public transport system? I mean, I know why, its the UK but its not like we’re stepping into the realms of sci-fi here.
I’d love to see a reliable, convenient and affordable public transport system.
I know, I'm not suggesting anyone isn't doing the best with the shitty hands being dealt but there is so much more that could be done if we (as a nation if not a species) were actually serious. But that doesn't suit the status quo.
Definitely, some seem to struggle at how good it could be. I use now to travel to Newcastle for days out, even though it’s now cheaper for me to drive. It’s a lot easier and quicker than driving, plus I can have a tipple.
Most of us know what actually needs to be done to stop the situation getting worse. We also know that nobody is ever going to support any of it so gradual changes here and there for the next 30 years having an even bigger issue to address in 30 years time.
That is mostly down to the inability for human beings to see themselves in 30 years time. They can see themselves now, the direct impacts today and so on but thinking about 30 years time has no basis in reality and they don't even see that person in 30 years time as them.
I’m currently sat at the Stirling low carbon hub on a free 50 kWh charger grabbing a few miles before heading back up the road
Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?
I’m currently sat at the Stirling low carbon hub on a free 50 kWh charger grabbing a few miles before heading back up the road
Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?
All ChargePlace Scotland chargers are all currently set to free vend because the new administrator SWARCO made a complete clusterf.. of taking over from BP Chargemaster. Currently you can't add or change payment details on your Chargeplace Scotland account, SWARCO have lost comms with a large % or the chargers and they are sending out new RFID cards at a snails pace.
More and more local authorities in Scotland are charging for their Chargeplace Scotland chargers but AFIK Stirling distruct still don't charge however when I was up in Scotland a couple of weeks ago I got 5 rapid charges for free in Falkirk District who normally charge 25p per kWh.
One bad side effect of having free charging in Scotland is that you get free loaders with fast chargers at home sitting on the nearest public chargers to their homes getting free juice and preventing drivers who really need them getting access so I think sooner or later all Scottish local authorities will start charging
Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?
That's basically train travel anywhere in the UK out of the question for you, then.
That’s basically train travel anywhere in the UK out of the question for you, then.
And buses, and to a degree flying, driving and childcare. Where do you stand on state pensions? The NHS and it’s use by drunks, the morbidly obese and people who chose to throw themselves down a mountain on a bicycle during their leisure time?
Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?
Since when do you need to be well off to own an EV? They're not all 150k Tesla Model S/X's
Since when do you need to be well off to own an EV? They’re not all 150k Tesla Model S/X’s
Seriously?
And buses, and to a degree flying, driving and childcare. Where do you stand on state pensions? The NHS and it’s use by drunks, the morbidly obese and people who chose to throw themselves down a mountain on a bicycle during their leisure time?
Most of those are used by everyone regardless of wealth or social standing. Electric cars are not common on council schemes, probably due to the cost. Once theyre at the price of a 20 year old Focus then we'll talk.
Seriously?
Er yes.
You can get a Zoe for 5.5k for example, you don't need to be 'well off' for that.
Worth quoting you link for the Zoé 40, Squirrelking, note the cold performance is -10°C:
Real Range between 110 - 235 mi
City - Cold Weather 155 mi
Highway - Cold Weather 110 mi
Combined - Cold Weather 130 mi
City - Mild Weather 235 mi
Highway - Mild Weather 140 mi
Combined - Mild Weather 180 mi
Indication of real-world range in several situations. Cold weather: 'worst-case' based on -10°C and use of heating. Mild weather: 'best-case' based on 23°C and no use of A/C. The actual range will depend on speed, style of driving, weather and route conditions.
Be nice if they specified the speed on the "highway". My trip out to the mountains today in the Zoé 52 driving up to the 80kmh speed limit wherever safe gave a consumption of 10.9kWh/100km so a range of 477km or 298 miles. 20 something °C on the way out, 35°C and A/C on full (eco mode off) for the return.
Just watched PS Automagazin on NTV with the Ioniq 5 featured. The petrolhead journo is no fan of electrics but suitably impressed, especially with the fast charge which was still showing 124 KW at 80% battery.
note the cold performance is -10°C:
Ah, that makes a difference for UK considerations at least.
I'm not knocking them, they are great for what they are and honestly enough for most folks needs. I'm just saying that buying a car based on edge case needs isn't necessarily the best way to go and manufacturers should recognise that. Just because they can doesn't mean they should etc.
Seriously?
My E-Tron costs less per month overall than my last 2 Golfs. The ID3 would even less again if it had been available.
And buses, and to a degree flying, driving and childcare. Where do you stand on state pensions? The NHS and it’s use by drunks, the morbidly obese and people who chose to throw themselves down a mountain on a bicycle during their leisure time?
They all have either a low or no barrier to use. Being able to spend £5k on a second car, or more likely £5k a year leasing one that'd actually be used for long trips isn't open to an awful lot of people.
My E-Tron costs less per month overall than my last 2 Golfs. The ID3 would even less again if it had been available.
If you think being able to lease a £60k car doesn't make you well off I'm not sure what to say.
My E-Tron costs less per month overall than my last 2 Golfs
How about a 20 year old hatchback?
How about a 20 year old hatchback?
Of course they’d be cheaper. 🤷🏻♂️
If you think being able to lease a £60k car doesn’t make you well off I’m not sure what to say.
It’s costs less than a new ICE normal family hatch, I could go cheaper again with other EVs available.