The Electric Car Thread

@zilog6128

it’s the whole point for me tbh. I wouldn’t get one until I can generate my own cheap, clean leccy for it (don’t have panels yet!) as otherwise, with the greater capital cost, it doesn’t work out financially, and it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

You' may struggle to charge a car on home solar charging alone. Remember, most of these new cars have a battery pack that's over 40kWh, even assuming peak generation from your legally limited 4kW solar array, you'd struggle to charge it in daylight hours for most of the year. Also, it's likely not to be at home when your power is being generated. Even a home battery such as a Tesla Power Wall won't help as it can only store about 6-12kWh and costs about €13k.

Thermal cycle in power stations is about 50% efficient, transmission loss is around 2%. Your FF car is about 30% efficient, so even an EV ran on fossil fuels can be more efficient. In reality UK electricity is already generated by around 40% renewables and you can pay a little more to make sure that's where most of your power comes from.

An EV can be surprisingly cost efficient even on smaller mileage and economical cars. We had a 2007 Fiat Panda 100hp that did about 45mpg costing about £90 in fuel a month to do around 9-10000 miles a year, coupled with road tax, the cost of it's servicing and maintenance was about £150/m.

We did PCH on an i3 for £247 and with free charging available at work, no road tax, no maintenance, it was only £90 a month more for a nearly new car. We've had it 4 years and it's cost me £290 in servicing, £40 in parts and less than £300 in power over 37000 miles. Sale of the Panda paid the deposit and left enough to get a home charger. I've also had to buy a single set of tyres at £400. The panda would have been £370 for tyres, but would've needed two sets by now.

We switched to a green tariff as soon as we bought it.

I mean that sounds great, but “decarbonised by two thirds” whilst obviously an improvement is meaningless without saying what it’s gone from and to

It's not entirely meaningless no. Clearly using only 33% of what you were using is a significant reduction in real terms as well as effort.

But quality of engine performance and noise is not an issue with EVs

Indeed - I think we focused a lot on managing weight distribution and on power delivery, and the engineers have spend however many millions of hours working on them, but they're suddenly not an issue with EVs. The only possible downer is for German petrol heads, since EV top end speeds aren't that high so it'd mean calming down a lot on the Autobahn. Which is no bad thing for everyone else.

it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

You aren't though, in the UK. And even if you were the way power is used is more efficient in an EV.

I find myself strangely attracted to this Ioniq.

The 5 or the upcoming 6?

VW-Audi group seemingly struggling

I dunno, the iD3/4 seem well received and the 3 looks like it's flying off the shelves going by what I see on the roads.

Remember, most of these new cars have a battery pack that’s over 40kWh, even assuming peak generation from your legally limited 4kW solar array, you’d struggle to charge it in daylight hours for most of the year. Also, it’s likely not to be at home when your power is being generated. Even a home battery such as a Tesla Power Wall won’t help as it can only store about 6-12kWh and costs about €13k.

It’s not entirely meaningless no. Clearly using only 33% of what you were using is a significant reduction in real terms as well as effort.

Yes, our car takes 7 hours to charge, but given we actually only drive about 10 miles a day that usage only takes an hour or so (managed by the smart app, it could be quicker if needed) and costs 10p.

There's probably enough wind power for that. Although it's a good reason to roll out charging points at people's workplaces.

I just googled and it looks like on average UK electricity is about max 40% renewable right now – which is brilliant actually, more than I’d have thought – but still means 60% of the time (more, overnight, when there’s no solar I guess) you’ll be charging from non-renewable.

Sure, but you need to think about the counter-factual, which in most cases would be driving an ICE car instead. So you're going from 100% fossil fuel (ok, I know there's a small biofuel element) to say 60% fossil fuel. That's quite a drop.

UK government GHG conversion factors are currently 0.04826 kg CO2e/ km for a medium electric car, and 0.18785 kg CO2/e/ km for a medium petrol car. So an electric car today, using UK national grid as its charging source, has CO2 emissions of around 25% of an equivalent ICE car.

Obviously this argument doesn't apply if you drive an EV instead of cycling 😉

Obviously this argument doesn’t apply if you drive an EV instead of cycling 😉

it’s still not none, so you’re a net carbon generator, so it’s a red-herring in terms of being planet-saving

Er no, it's not a red herring at all. It's not perfect, but it's not useless. We'll never get down to zero carbon, that's not possible - we could get down to a sustainable level though which means balancing production and absorbtion.

If you are demanding zero carbon now, then that's nice and all but it's simply not possible given the world we now live in, unless you take over the world and become a global dictator.

So you’re going from 100% fossil fuel (ok, I know there’s a small biofuel element) to say 60% fossil fuel.

And you're using less of it as well.

If I've got this right a 50mpg car is using about 3MJ/mile, whereas a 5 miles/kWh car is using only 720kJ/mile. Someone check my maths as that seems nuts.

EDIT actually yes it's not bad if you take the usual figure of 25% efficiency of a petrol ICE.

we could get down to a sustainable level though which means balancing production and absorbtion.

even assuming peak generation from your legally limited 4kW solar array,

Legally limited is misleading. You can have any array you want(assuming the space)you just have to apply to the relevent agency which is why I asked how big an array you were planning to heat your house in winter.

But it's all immaterial unless you only drive at night and can charge all day.

What it does do is offset your other use at least assuming your home during the day to use it.

there is no “sustainable level”, which is not zero (or less)

There is, because the environment absorbs CO2 all the time and it will absorb more CO2 the higher the concentration is. We just need to not exceed the absorbtion capacity of the planet. Most is absorbed by the oceans.

Most is absorbed by the oceans.

I really hate it when people start with, “remember” or “think”, like you’re **** stupid, and couldn’t possible figure it out for yourself. So condescending

Well, maybe if most of your first post wasn't complete rubbish, we might have guessed that you had a clue? All I had to go on was what YOU wrote!

I wouldn’t get one until I can generate my own cheap, clean leccy for it (don’t have panels yet!)

So long as its generated from renewables, what does it matter if you or someone else generates it? the cost difference is negligible, so why should it stop you getting an EV? Having to buy your own panels and house battery would just increase your costs.

as otherwise, with the greater capital cost, it doesn’t work out financially,

As described above and further above in my first post - it does work.

it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

Again, you assumed it was 20% renewables, when its actually 40+%, didn't know about thermal efficiency differences, etc.

I only replied based on what you wrote, so was I being condescending or replying based on the information provided? I certainly apologise, I didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities.

@trail_rat,

I thought 4kW was the limit for domestic, something to do with single phase power transmission? (I know you can actually go much higher on SP, but I thought this was a recommended limit.

@daffy

<4.14kw (3.6kw post inverter losses) you notify the dno

>4kw (3.6 post inverter losses) you ask their permission and it can be declined

Which is a pain if you've an East west split roof as your peak output is limited by your array split.

My folks run the ashp for the residents pool off a 4kw solar install in summer. So the heating thing can be done. How ever that summer in the middle of France. 25kwh/day generated not the UK winter

I'm in the process of buying a new-build house that comes with a 10kw (peak) array. It's not been finished yet so I can't tell you the real-world output but hoping it will be enough to run the house including air source heat pump and some underfloor heating plus enough to charge the house battery (10kwh). Haven't got an EV yet, but it will definitely be on the agenda once we get settled.

One issue with the bigger capacity seems to be that it's not straightforward to arrange supply to the grid for any excess we might have, hence the house battery.

if that’s what you’re banking on, I have some bad news I’m afraid

When I said 'the ocean absorbs CO2' you read 'everything will be fine because the ocean absorbs all the CO2'...

I was simply countering that anything over zero CO2 is a problem. It's anything over NET zero that is the problem. We're producing it faster than it can be sequestered. What we need to do is produce it slower than the rate at which it can be sequestered.

I get two or three environmental news stories in my feed every day at least, so yes I knew about the reduction in CO2 sink capabilities of warmer oceans.

Interesting thread.
I'be got an existing ICE car that does around 40-45mpg with 70k miles on the clock which I am thinking of trading in for something larger as kids are growing bigger. What would be the best action to take from an environmental POV -
1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

Second hand EV's tend to be a bit thin on the ground currently, especially in a bigger car format.

I’m in the process of buying a new-build house that comes with a 10kw (peak) array.

That's a hell of an array (30 panels). I'm currently looking into installing a 5 kW array. I think you need DNO permission to feed anything over 3.8kW back into the grid unless you have a three phase supply. In summer its only going to take an hour to fully charge you battery so what are you going to do with the rest?

Again, you assumed it was 20% renewables, when its actually 40+%, didn’t know about thermal efficiency differences, etc.

I was simply countering that anything over zero CO2 is a problem. It’s anything over NET zero that is the problem.

Hi everyone, please can you give me the benefit of STW’s advice on what EV to get to replace Mrs J-R’s Fiesta.

She is looking for something for local journeys only, so I guess a real world winter range of about 100 miles is fine. And we want to spend in the region of £7k-£10k.

I was thinking of something like a Zoe - I realise there is the issue of battery lease to consider.

Is that a good option and what are the similar alternatives?

1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

its a quandry I am pondering myself, only with slightly different reasons and figures.

and its not an easy descision, because you need to consider not only *your* impact, but everyones. If you chop in your car, presumably someone else will buy it and use it (at 70k, its not even half done yet).

Someone should be running current cars to their practical deaths, doesn't mean it has to be you. Likewise, affordable second hand EVs are only going to become a thing if someone buys (or leases) them new.

what are you going to do with the rest?

Well, the developer is in talks with the power company. I don't know how likely it is they'll get it sorted between them. They reckon there is no technical reason not to allow feed-in, it's just a question of approval but I don't know the details.

The Octopus tariffs allow you to feed back stored power from car batteries at peak times too if you've got spare. Good way to outsource power storage, although I guess you'd have to consider the effect on battery life over time.

We will need power for all heating, cooking and hot water plus two of us WFH, plus car eventually.

How many miles per year do you do?

1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

Sort of a similar quandary to us.

We have a late 2019 car which is worth more than the PCP due to stupid 2nd hand prices. Its a 2.0 TSI medium SUV and does between 35 to 40mpg.

I have no real reason to change other than I can move to Electric now rather than in a few years time, later on in its PCP cycle as its financially viable. I'd happily stick with the car we have and change in 2yrs time.

But is it better to move to leccy now 🤔

If you chop in your car, presumably someone else will buy it and use it

True but if you buy a used EV that means someone else who wants one will have to buy new which contribute to the development of the tech and the electrification of the fleet.

BUT if you sell your car it will mean that at the bottom of the chain someone's car is going to be scrapped when it could be repaired.

Just a question regarding the 40% renewables, are you factoring nuclear into the mix and the fact that from November we'll be losing ~2GW over roughly a year IIRC then another 2GW in 2 years and another 2.5GW probably 2 years after that?

43% renewables, 59% rewables + nuclear

Hinkly Point brings the nuclear proportion back up again in 2026, maybe.

In summer its only going to take an hour to fully charge you battery so what are you going to do with the rest?

At 10Kwh it’s going to take a lot longer than an hour.

Hi everyone, please can you give me the benefit of STW’s advice on what EV to get to replace Mrs J-R’s Fiesta.

She is looking for something for local journeys only, so I guess a real world winter range of about 100 miles is fine. And we want to spend in the region of £7k-£10k.

I was thinking of something like a Zoe – I realise there is the issue of battery lease to consider.

Is that a good option and what are the similar alternatives?

Morning bump

Hinkly Point brings the nuclear proportion back up again in 2026, maybe.

Not even close, Hinkley Point C is due to generate 3.2GW, by 2026 we'll have lost at least 4GW from planned closures at Hunterston B, Hinkley Point B, Hartlepool and Heysham 1 (I'm not even counting Dungeness B since it never generated since 2018 anyway but that's another lost GW). Another 2.4GW will be lost with the closure of Torness and Heysham 2 after that.

Sizewell C is still at Coming Soon [TM] status and nothing else has even gone through consultation never mind having anyone to build them.

At 10Kwh it’s going to take a lot longer than an hour.

@Drac I meant his house battery which is 10kWh not his car battery

1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

I recently listened to a podcast quoting a European report which concluded that even on the US grid an EV overcomes it's larger embodied footprint to net produce less CO2 than a conventional car very, very quickly. Something like 3 years IIRC. So answer is probably that if you can find an EV then that is the better choice. I'll try dig out the report later.

Does anyone think that the Government may announce something further on electric cars in the run up to COP 26 in terms of extended grants etc?

They are going to need some sort of policy announcements over the summer as COP26 will keep environment in the headlines. Encouraging electric car use with positive incentives is likely to be easier sell than eg re-introducing the fuel tax escalator

Double post

Does anyone think that the Government may announce something further on electric cars in the run up to COP 26 in terms of extended grants etc?

I'm generally against subsidies like this because it just encourages manufacturers to increase their prices by the amount of the subsidy and trouser the extra profit. It was amazing how some manufacturers could instantly decrease the price of their EVs when the government recently reduced the price cap on the EV allowance.

Dropping the VAT on public charging from 20% to the 5% charged on domestic electricity would be a better idea.

We'll see if those nuclear plant closures happen on time.

I meant his house battery which is 10kWh not his car battery

Ohhhh!

We’ll see if those nuclear plant closures happen on time.

They will, they're already ahead of schedule for political/technical reasons. Based on what I've heard about the second tranche AGRs I've no reason to doubt they'll be following the first lot.

I’m generally against subsidies like this because it just encourages manufacturers to increase their prices by the amount of the subsidy and trouser the extra profit.

In general yes but there might be a role for subsidy in cases like these. Of course there's Catch 22 situation here - economies of scale are required to make EVs cheaper, but that won't happen until lots of people buy them, and one of the biggest blockers is cost, so people are waiting for prices to come down which requires economies of scale...

Not many OEMs are making money on EVs yet. It's definitely not a case of just trousering more profit, unless you consider it that the grant is helping them to pull their fleet average down and therefore keep selling at the more polluting end of their range.

Anecdotally I've not heard anyone complain about the concept of EVs, only express concerns about charging infrastructure.

All my neighbours were very interested in the Ioniq when it turned up, but all were positive. Most people seem to accept that they "are the future" so I think the PR battle has mostly been won.

This means that the manufacturers will capitalise on this and the government action will be seen as positive. If you want to see EVs adopted then I think you have a lot to be pleased about.

@J-R

And we want to spend in the region of £7k-£10k.

I was thinking of something like a Zoe – I realise there is the issue of battery lease to consider.

Is that a good option and what are the similar alternatives?

There are three different ages of Zoe now; the oldest 22kwh ones with a range of about 80-100 miles, the slightly newer ZE40 40kwh ones with a range of 150-180 miles, and the newest ZE50 50something kwh with a range of 240 ish miles. Your budget would easily get you one of the old ones, should get you a ZE40 but the only used ZE50s will be too new for your budget.

We loved our ZE40; it was a nice little car. The boot is bigger than normal for the size of car. It was pretty basic for gadgets and whatnot but did us fine.

The main complication is that only the ZE50 can charge from DC chargers; the older ones are AC only. There are quite a few chargers being installed these days that only do DC, so doing longer journeys might be more faff than in a DC charging car like a Leaf or most other things.

You can buy out the battery lease these days; I get the impression that dealers sometimes do this as it makes it easier to sell on a used car without the complication of the lease.

There's a Type 2 socket on every Zoé made. It's by far the most common standard. The EU will only have two obligatory standards for charge points from 2024, Type 2 and Combo.

Could you point me at a recent charge point anywhere in any country that doesn't do Type 2 Phil. The Uk isn't in the EU anymore but not having Type 2 is turning away most of your potential business.

I've a Zoe with Type 2 and Combo and have never seen a recent charger without Type 2.

Type 2 doesn't define a charger as AC or DC though