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I mean, super facny, uber powerful EVs are great and all, but really it’s just a car…!
Well, this has happened originally because the battery was expensive. A few years back it would cost say £20k, which meant no-one would pay £30k for a car that was fundamentally cheap and low spec. So the only way to make the cars saleable at all was to fit all the widgets and sound insulation and fancy design features the could find in their parts bins, which justified the price. Even now, people say that EVs and ICEs are comparable like for like meaning that if you up-spec an ICE to the same levels as the EV it costs a similar amount. But there are still almost no options that compete with actual cheap ICEs like the Aygo etc.
The Dacia only achieves this low price by having a tiny battery. And since most buyers are a bit obsessed with battery range, this rules it out for most people. The average journey may be only 5 miles, but not many people want to buy a brand new car even for £15k with a very short range. Our EV is a 'second car runaround' type use, but we realised that the more useful it was, the more we'd use it and the more money we'd save. We used to have a 'worse' car (the Leaf) but we didn't want to use it much beyond commuting. However with the Ioniq, we are happy driving it all over the place on days out and errands. I'd rather have a used better car than a new Dacia Spring, and that's the choice that private cash buyers are making. Leasers, private or company, are looking at new cars therefore they want something more upmarket I reckon.
The Dacia spring has an 'official range' of 140 miles. That means in winter in the rain you would be lucky to get 100. Its max charge rate is 30kw (very slow) and its very basic. I guess it would work as a school run car - its going to need a house with a drive and home charging. I can't see many being sold tbh
It needs to have double the range and double the charge speed to be viable, even at that price.
It needs to have double the range and double the charge speed to be viable, even at that price.
I respect that view, but fundamentally disagree.
I work in a small village where you can be fairly certain the vast vast majority of people simply pop in the car to pootle to the shops/town/friend/family down the road. These are the sorts of people you end up buying a 14 year old car from, with 8000 miles on the clock! The furthest they drive is to the petrol pump in the village next door!!!
Yes, the spring is never going to be a rep mobile. But a 100-140 mile range will be plenty for plenty. It's just a case of changing the mindset.
Old people (who I agree will not accept EVs, but really should) and low mileage commuters - this would be ideal. The Leaf i had before the polestar was ideal for this. I used to commute 15 miles each way, and do the odd trip away. I only got the P2 as i moved on teh Leaf and my octavia to get just one car.
DrP
Yep, you look around suburbia and there's loads of households with a big family car plus a small runabout. Absolutely loads of cars are used just for school runs, commuting, shopping and local visits. Not everyone needs 300 mile range and 150+kw charging just as not everyone needs a van to cart their hobby equipment about.
When our e+ Leaf goes back from PCP I'm actually tempted to get an earlier one (maybe pre-2017 for the free tax), 99% of the time it won't even do 50 miles in a day.
I guess it would work as a school run car – its going to need a house with a drive and home charging.
As above - loads of cars are used for short distances only, this is an entirely valid use case. The key point about this is that it's short range, slow charging and cheap. If it were £30k people would scoff but it's half that which why it's compelling. The only issue I can see is that it is up against used better cars. But then, if you have to have a new car - or if you lease, it might be good.
Just checked leases, they can be had for £150/mo. That must be one of the cheapest cars out there, and that's before you factor in fuel cost. Remarkable.
Yep, you look around suburbia and there’s loads of households with a big family car plus a small runabout. Absolutely loads of cars are used just for school runs, commuting, shopping and local visits. Not everyone needs 300 mile range and 150+kw charging just as not everyone needs a van to cart their hobby equipment about.
Bingo! We needed a 2nd car when my wife changed jobs and switched from commuting my train to car. Our EV has never done more that an 80 mile round trip*, and has never needed to be be rapid DC charged**. Costs ~2p a mile in fuel*** (versus around 20p for the family petrol car).
*and it only does trips that long as I've ended up using it to drive into London for football matches/gigs quite often as the train will cost me £30, versus ~£1.60 in electricity.
** not quite true - did rapid charge twice when fault-finding a charging issue.
*** actually more like <1p a mile as do more than half of my charging for free at my work.
It needs to have double the range and double the charge speed to be viable, even at that price.
No. Would have made a great choice for me, and anyone else needs a car for commuting who can charge at either home or work.
I completely get all of the above use cases. I myself have an old Leaf that I''ve been using for this very purpose for almost a decade and driven 90k in it.
My point was that this is 15k and very very basic. Only 4 seats as well. There is no way I'd shell out that much and I fit right into its niche unless it was better in some way and I'm very pro EV obviously.
Still maybe I'm wrong and they will be everywhere in a couple of years - I hope so!
It needs to have double the range and double the charge speed to be viable, even at that price.
Nah
My dad has a Dacia Dustbuster on a 66 plate. He's had it since new.
I got my car in september and it has more miles on it than his. If you are doing 1500 miles a year (like him) it would be just the job.
Except in the real world, for the vast majority of customers this would be a perfect car.
There is no way I’d shell out that much and I fit right into its niche unless it was better in some way and I’m very pro EV obviously.
The thing it does massively better is cost about a 1/4 of the amount as petrol to do most of your usual bimbling around driving. I'm using a hybrid to do the same right now. I haven't used the fuel engine for anything except for the last bit of my commute (slightly further than electric range) and a long trip up north with my partner. All the shopping, school runs, gym, going into town, going to mates houses etc is done on electric, which (for me) is about 20% of the cost (in fuel) of the mild hybrid diesel i had before.
Looking at a new or secondhand id3, id4 or mini countryman for my wife, anyone here got one and happy to share their experiences? The id4 is probably not really on her list, as it looks plenty larger than the id3.
This happened on my estate a couple of days ago... Within 100yds of my house...
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More info [url= https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/24893737.electric-peugeot-blows-up-henley-close-worcester/?fbclid=IwY2xjawIJ-9ZleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHc_8lgKvpoEWW8XCAPBJ7P1yGPg5fpWxgND1g3eZkX_cSE112a8mEA4sdg_aem_p2jge1dI0nvnChz8C2vhtA ]here...[/url]
It's made me think twice about wanting an EV to be honest! The car in the pic above was a 24 plate Peugeot, not some first Gen EV with incredibly tired cells... It wasn't even on charge at the time! Thermal runaway might be pretty rare, but it's certainly more common than a modern ICE vehicle catching fire!
but it’s certainly more common than a modern ICE vehicle catching fire!
Do you have any evidence for that?
but it’s certainly more common than a modern ICE vehicle catching fire!
Apparently it isn't, the stats seems to show that Evs are less likely to catch fire than ice.
I’m calling bullshit on the above not being plugged in. The wall charger shows an attached cable under tension and there’s clear signs of electrical fire on both the charger and what looks like the electricity wall box.
Maybe the wall box and charger caught fire during the care fire, but it looks sus.
Agreed. It was definitely plugged in. Stats show fires far less likely. However awful for them that that happened.
but it’s certainly more common than a modern ICE vehicle catching fire!
No, it certainly isn't. Research has been done. Not complex research either. Add up all the EV fires and divide by the number on the road, then do the same for ICE - and you get a much higher number for ICE. Do you want me to post up a picture of an ICE fire? A house caught fire near here too a while back - I wouldn't want to live in one of those things!
That picture does look a bit odd though - how come the front of the car is the most melted? That's not where the battery is.
Sweden collected stats on this, and electric cars are 20 times less likely to catch fire.
edit I read some of the rest of the page where it puts the data in context sorry! Albeit I would say it frames it rather negatively for those of us scanning the first few scrolls after a dram
@theotherjonv that’s the very definition of lies lies and statistics. Completely lacking context. Quick google shows the order of magnitude less likely EV fires are to occur. That’s not to say they don’t happen, and consequence can be different, but come on.
Regardless, there is a much lower chance of an EV catching fire than an ICE:
https://greenfleet.net/features/13122024/persistant-ev-myths-lets-put-out-fire
That picture does look a bit odd though – how come the front of the car is the most melted? That’s not where the battery is.
Probably because the headlights, bumper, wheel arch liners and trim were all made of plastic.
Wings as well possibly. I think the wings of my 64 plate 308SW were plastic- they were pretty flexible.
No, it certainly isn’t. Research has been done. Not complex research either. Add up all the EV fires and divide by the number on the road, then do the same for ICE – and you get a much higher number for ICE.
Doesn't *quite* work like that, you need to look at the age of the vehicle as well to get meaningful data. Old cars *tend* to burst into flames more often than new ones. Aren't many properly old EVs about, hundreds of thousands of 20 year old cars on the roads, even in Sweden.
Sweden collected stats on this, and electric cars are 20 times less likely to catch fire.
Still true, even when you only look at new cars (ok, might only be 18 times less likely, i haven't looked at the data since the study was first published).
Old cars *tend* to burst into flames more often than new ones.
Is that true? Certainly the large car park fires have come back to modern turbodiesels as being the source
Is that true?
Statistically, yes.
The subsequent effect of the fire isn't included in the study. One car in Luton destroyed 1300+ cars and one car on a bulk carrier destroyed 3000+, that's still only 2 fires. Statistically irrelevant on their own.
A 5 second google tells me that the fire service went out to something like 300 a day in 2018, just in the UK.
Update on my issue with the charger flap not opening.
VW Preston quoted £50 for the solenoid, £200 labour + vat.
Was going to book it in with them, but they added £180 diagnostic fee as they have to run a diagnostic on the car to see if that is the actual fault and they wouldn't waive the extra £180.
So ended up waiting for my usual garage to fit me in. Went there at the weekend and it cost £70 total and 20 minutes work.
VW are robbing gits.
VW are robbing gits.
Main Stealers are robbing gits in general.
DaffyFull Member
I’m calling bullshit on the above not being plugged in. The wall charger shows an attached cable under tension and there’s clear signs of electrical fire on both the charger and what looks like the electricity wall box.Maybe the wall box and charger caught fire during the care fire, but it looks sus.
Is that not the charging cable laying on the floor in pic 4?
Main Stealers are robbing gits in general.
My Octavia was in for an MOT at main dealers last week (in my defense it is 50 meters from my office and it gets a wash and vacuum, for the same price as getting it done at an indy).
The "health inspection" noted front pads and discs were 65% worn. This was on a convenient online form where there was a checkbox I could click and hit submit and they would get it done that day. Price £825.
At the time I just laughed at it, but when I got home I looked up what they had charged me for front discs and pads on the same car previously - £295. I actually emailed them to enquire whether £825 was a mistake, but haven't heard back funnily enough.
£295 was quite probably the actual cost parts/labour using non-OE parts (so probably from the same factory/production line but with a different barcode). 2 hours labour @£60 (what it actually takes, including a couple of coffee breaks) and £175 in parts.
£825 might be the newest, latest, all singing all dancing fixed price service cost using OE Skoda/VW/Audi parts. And 4 or 5 years of inflation/gouging. Half a days labour @£90 (official timings) plus £465 in parts.
Re the Peugeot fire a page back: there's a recall on those because of 12v battery fires. In the pics it looks like the only thing that didn't burn was the traction battery and that the fire started at the front because the front tryres are totally burnt but not the rears.
Edit: rereading I see the car is a 24 plate so not concerned by the recall.
Yes, good point 12V battery, OBC and DCDC are all under the bonnet on that platform (might have integrated DCDC/OBC on a car that new, but not sure). A full on traction battery short and subsequent fire would probably have melted the house before the fire service got there.
Main Stealers are robbing gits in general.
Aren't they obliged to quote parts and labour costs according to what the manufacturer tells them?
A full on traction battery short and subsequent fire would probably have melted the house before the fire service got there.
My thought on the EV fire was along the lines that if the fire service left the scene after 90 minutes, which is what the article suggested then the traction battery didn't ignite and any subsequent fires from the remaining battery cells wasn't a threat?
I thought that the fire service hung around much longer for everyone fires due to the big battery being an issue looking after the fire is out?
The charge flap at the back of the car wasn't open either? If it is on the same side as a Tesla?
After considering our first EV for quite a while we bought a 2021 Kia e-Niro 3 on Saturday. A few minor bits for the dealer to sort before we collect on Friday. Looking forward to having a nicer car again with gizmos and gadgets.
Got our ohme pro charger install booked for 25th Feb via octopus and will switch to octopus go intelligent (already a customer). So reading up on home charging tips and tricks now.
I thought that the fire service hung around much longer for everyone fires due to the big battery being an issue looking after the fire is out?
Took nearly 3 days to put the fire out in the battery lab when it went up, and there were only about a dozen batteries in there.
A lot more detail in this article
https://road.cc/content/news/greg-lemond-open-carbon-fibre-factory-grimsby-312445
oops wrong thread
Still trying to get a demo drive in an id4. Local ish vw dealers don’t seem to give a stuff about selling an electric car.
one really couldn’t have cared less. Maybe their too busy creaming everyone on servicing.
Actually begs the question, considering all EV’s use a similar electric motor and battery - some are all on the same platform, is there much value in a test drive. Do I just look round, check the tech and boot space for bikes?
I would say so. Some , I'm looking ay you id4, are not the most exciting drive in the world
Im convinced most main dealer networks must be an elaborate front for money laundering, drug smuggling and people trafficking outfits. It the only explanation for their total disinterest and complete lack of knowledge in anything related to their products. The whole process needs moving online - I’ve even seen a Kia dealer actually pull up this website from google search when trying to find out info on an EV6!! Sorry Mr Salesman but I’m not going to purchase a 40k car off the back of whether Binners says the V2L adapter can be bought separately - that’s your job.
As for test drives - I don’t think you can learn much from a quick whizz round the local bypass with the sales idiot waffling nonsense in your ear. Perhaps a 24hr test where you can spend sometime using the car might be useful but that’s almost impossible to sort these days
front pads and discs were 65% worn
So 35% left? Or not even 2/3rds used?
You were had. There's probably a years braking left in them
Anyone got a Polestar 3? I'm getting the use of one for a couple of weeks and wondered if there was anything I need to know.
@walowiz - When looking at what EV to get via Salary Sacrifice I found VW in Ellesmere Port really helpful. I narrowed down between Audi Q4 and VW Buzz. VW let me take out the Buzz for a decent test drive, left me to it with just me and the better half.
Audi locally were also pretty good. I told both early on that I just was getting the car through Salary Sacrifice and they knew they wouldn’t get the sale, but both were still very helpful.
SEAT probably the best of the main dealers I visited and did offer me a proper long term test drive, but this would have been a direct sale rather than salary sacrifice.
I've searched, yet I can't find an answer.
We are getting an EV, and having a charge point fitted to the house. The best place for us to have it is on the side of the porch, which is a low stone wall with a windowsill and glazing above. The wall is 950mm high.
It's a HyperVolt Home 3 Pro - no display or buttons and a tethered cable.
I note the specs for EV charge point installation say 0.75 and 1.2m from the ground, with controls at 1.2 to 1.4m from the ground.
I can't find out if this is a hard and fast "must do" or just a recommendation.
Does anyone know if we'd be OK having the charger top about 900mm from the ground, so the bottom would be about 600mm from the ground?
Plan B means placing the charger on another wall, facing the street and much further from the car and charger port so we'd probably need the 10m cable instead of the 5m so overall not as neat and tidy.