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Oh I should have clarified - the network should be run by a government that knows what's it's doing 🙂
Imagine how many petrol stations there would be if houses had a petrol tap in the yard with petrol at a third of the petrol station price. Charge points are expensive to make install and maintain, and most EV users only use them when they're more than 150km from home. They aren't economically viable in all but the busiest locations at present. There's one outside my local swimming pool that I walk past three or four times a day that I haven't seen in use in the last two weeks.
There’s one outside my local swimming pool that I walk past three or four times a day that I haven’t seen in use in the last two weeks.
Depends on what charger type it is, if it's a slow one (3/7 type 2) which so many are that could be why.
Its also very much a chicken and egg situation. There's not huge amounts of reliable rapid 100kw+ chargers about and companies won't invest properly till the demand exists. Tons of 50kws or slower chargers.
We've got a 52kw ID4 coming but very likely will only ever use it for local stuff and charge at home for the above reason.
I'm reluctant to switch the diesel estate at the moment despite really wanting too. Having that 500 mile range on a tank will be hard to lose to a c250 mile range with a 1.5hr charge time (50kw) just to get the other 250 mile done to match it and needing another top at most likely near the end.
The problem with charging points at the moment for long journeys is that the decent chargers are not in spots which are interesting enough to spend an hour or so and keep the little one and us entertained, if they were at places like nice parks rather than Starbucks it'd help a lot.
If we just did what the Germans do and put soft play and parks at service stations that would solve that problem.
If we just did what the Germans do and put soft play and parks at service stations that would solve that problem.
They should just shove a bouncy castle in the car park.
molgrips
If we just did what the Germans do and put soft play and parks at service stations that would solve that problem.
The new service station at Rugby is pretty nice with a load of charging bays, a kids indoor soft play area and loads of outdoor seating in a pleasant setting.
It reminded me of some of the French service stations we stopped at a couple of years ago
We’ve got a 52kw ID4 coming but very likely will only ever use it for local stuff and charge at home for the above reason.
Isn't that where a PHEV fits? Mrs S has had hers for around 2 months and only used 1/2 tank of petrol. Ok she has to plug it in more often than a full EV but we've fitted a weatherproof 3 pin plug socket on the outside of the garage to make that task easy.
Isn’t that where a PHEV fits?
No because the smaller EV fits perfectly for 80% of our journeys which many are greater than the range of a PHEV but less than the total range of the EV (return). It's our second car.
It's the other 20% as to why I'm stuck deciding do I try and make a larger EV work or stick with for now the more convenient diesel.
if it’s a slow one (3/7 type 2)
I's a nominal 22 Type 2 that runs at 18, just like all the public charge points within 70km. But most people charge at home. I only use it when I get back from a long trip late and want to do another long trip the next morning, that's once a year so far.
It’s the other 20% as to why I’m stuck deciding do I try and make a larger EV work or stick with for now the more convenient diesel.
I've just taken the plunge and given up the German diesel estate for a German electric semi suv (e-Tron). I don't do huge miles anymore, but there's likely to be a couple of 500 mile round trips in the next couple of months. I'm taking the view that I'm just going to have to change how I do those journeys. An extra hour or so each way will take care of the charging need and paying for the super high speed chargers at 69p per kWh (Ionity) will be offset by the free charging I'm getting 90% of the time in Scotland.
I'm also considering an Alps trip in it - that might be a harder sell.
Personally I wouldn't mind doing a long trip in an EV especially if it can do 3 hours between stops. I don't really want to drive that in one go, and for me the endless coffees, cakes and food are what make road trips fun.
Personally I wouldn’t mind doing a long trip in an EV especially if it can do 3 hours between stops. I don’t really want to drive that in one go, and for me the endless coffees, cakes and food are what make road trips fun.
I agree long trips even in the ICE need a break, but its the whole debacle of finding suitable chargers that work even when you've reached your holiday destination. Look at zapmap, filter out anything lower than 100kw chargers and there's large swathes of the country missing them but overlay that with fuel stations and you can easily see the problem.
This write up of a 1000 mile trip journey for example is not my idea of fun. https://www.speakev.com/threads/real-world-and-holidays-farnborough-to-st-ives-to-ross-on-wye.161882/
Spending evenings hunting for juice or feeling rushed to stop charging because a queue is forming ? I want to be relaxing wherever I call base after a good day out. We regularly go away on weeks/long weekends.
I know it'll change and more reliable faster units will emerge its just whether now is the right time to change for us, despite really wanting too.
but its the whole debacle of finding suitable chargers that work even when you’ve reached your holiday destination.
That's a somewhat different issue - it's not the distance and the journey that's the problem, it's the destination. And yes it's an issue.
Looks like Tesla's network may soon be open to all
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/355605/slow-charging-evs-could-be-charged-more-when-tesla-supercharger-network-opens-all
This would help. Alot.
filter out anything lower than 100kw chargers
That's just daft. If you're that impatient a holiday must be hell for you. On my last holiday I arrived at destination and plugged the car in overnight at the campsite. On pervious holidays I've charged at the hotel, at a free 22kW charger 50m from the beach in spain (it was tempting to leave it there when full but I'm not that anti-social), at the supermarket when shopping (Lidl, Leclerc, Intermarché, Aldi.. ).
That’s just daft. If you’re that impatient a holiday must be hell for you. On my last holiday I arrived at destination and plugged the car in overnight at the campsite. On pervious holidays I’ve charged at the hotel, at a free 22kW charger 50m from the beach in spain (it was tempting to leave it there when full but I’m not that anti-social), at the supermarket when shopping (Lidl, Leclerc, Intermarché, Aldi.. ).
It's not daft at all, as I said its not about getting from your home to the holiday destination. If you want to pop out for the day to do some activities but need a charge up you don't want to be sitting around on a 50kw, it's eating into your day out or as I linked in the post you spend your evenings charging up while the kids are asleep.
Trickle charging on a 3pin is a possibility but again if you've reached your location with a low battery an overnight wont top up much, depending on car it can take 2 to 3 days to fill up so even a 12hr stint over night might only give you a 25% top up.
Lucky you that you had a 22kw available to charge at, I've been researching cottages and hotels and the majority here don't rather than the majority does to have that overnight 7kw+ charging and I dont intend on spending an hour in Lidl while on holiday, I can do that at home but again those typically only have up to 22kw type 2s so an hour would only give 31 miles.
On my last holiday I arrived at destination and plugged the car in overnight at the campsite
I'm sure most people would be happy to do that but I don't think there are many campsites with EV charging.
There were quite a few 7kW chargers in car parks around West Wales, and this would have worked if we'd factored it in. Often we went into town for something and we could've grabbed an hour of charge. If we'd been with the EV we'd probably have gone in, shopped a bit then eaten out just so that we could put in maybe 2-3 hours. Presumably this is why the council put them in 🙂 With a bit of careful choice of beach etc we could probably have managed. But then, a 7kW charger in a 5m/kWh car is more useful than it is in a 3m/kWh car.
Nearly all campsites have standard blue camping sockets. That's all you need. A camping blue socket to your national plug standard adaptor and then plug in your charger block. Ours works on every campsite with a 10A breaker which is every campsite we've visited with the car. Camper vans with heating need 16A connections so campsites usually have them.
you don’t want to be sitting around on a 50kw
That's the fastest my Zoé will charge at. I'm unlikely to be down to less than 20% and don't ussually charge above 90% so that's 45minutes, once during my stay. That really isn't going to ruin my holiday or even my day. I'm good at amusing myself, there's usually a guitar in the car and a good book.
There were quite a few 7kW chargers in car parks around West Wales, and this would have worked if we’d factored it in. Often we went into town for something and we could’ve grabbed an hour of charge.
Theres also the 45min max charge factor for some of those types. Networks/councils may limit people parking their car up and disappearing all day blocking the charger up for others to use.
So they charge a penalty if you leave it for longer than that. That includes those 7kw types in car parks which I find hilarious as for example in the ID4 that 45mins would give 15 mmiles. At least if it was a 50kw it'd give about 110 miles.
you don’t want to be sitting around on a 50kw
50Kwh will give me 80 miles in about 30 minutes.
The new chargers in the centre of the town here are 22Kwh the idea is so people shop and walk around town while charging. The outside of town has 350Kwh chargers which are handy for those on a onward journey.
I’m unlikely to be down to less than 20% and don’t usually charge above 90% so that’s 45minutes, once during my stay.
I'm looking at a larger car with a bigger battery - 80kw+ market like the Etron/Enyaq, longer to charge and less economical. I will be charging up more than once, can assure you on that.
You have an amazing imagination Lary lamb but you need to provide evidence of those things.
Limited time: In Germany Lidl limits to 1h, just like every other shopper - it's a parking limit time not a charging limit time. In the UK I used a Podpoint with a time limit so I went out and started it again as there was no-one waiting. In Berlin you get charged for squatting because it was becoming a major headache with hybrid owners squatting electric parking slots with full batteries - the penalty is just slightly more than the normal parking fee if you overstay.
I haven't needed to use a charger lower than 18kW real in over 2 years, I've often chosen a 22kW over a 50+ because it was in a nicer/more convenient place. A 22kW in a supermarket car park wastes less time than a faster charger in the middle of nowhere.
The progress made in the last three years has been enormous, I no longer see a lack of charging infrastructure as a headache.
This is how I see the future. It's in Germany. There's a charging bay with chargers belonging to different suppliers - with space for more obviously at present. I'm on a cheapo Mobility+ compatible charger that was up to 150kW IIRC and the Porche was on a properly fast charger, over 250kW IIRC, I think the Porsche was the only car capable of making full use of it at the time. The e-Tron had used the faster one and was just faffing.
Taycan can charge at 350Kw the E Tron around 125Kwh
My Audi has alerted me that it requires a software update for the charging software, not sure what it’s for.
Those charging stations are coming - the question is when? And will the more out-of-the-way places get them?
You have an amazing imagination Lary lamb but you need to provide evidence of those things.
For what?
Look I'm on the EV bandwagon we're getting one we just don't see at this time how having one for the longer journeys is viable within our current lifestyle nor have faith in the reliability of the networks. Its not just me go on that speakev forum, members who have EVs say the same thing.
And will the more out-of-the-way places get them?
And that's the thing, will the middle of Snowdonia or the Highlands get them? Or basically more of them north of Leeds, there's hardly any 150+ in the north compared to the south.
Problem with these super charging points is we will need way more of them than fuel stations in the future simply because of the amount of time spent at one versus filling up with diesel. Queues will form very quickly so it's no good there being a handful on the M6, A1 or M25.
Yes lots will charge at home but not everyone has that luxury (and batteries will get bigger so an overnight might not fill up on 7kwh) and add to that travellers it'll soon clog up.
batteries will get bigger
Yup but will refill what people use overnight even on a 7kW which gives 84kWh in 12h. Most people don't regularly do huge mileages back to back, and even if they do, 84kWh is going to get them a good distance before needing a charger.
Bigger batteries cut the number of people at charge points. That I know from personal experience. I also know that he bigger battery means I'm less concerned by areas with few chargers. I used to have to drive slowly from Bordeaux to la Loire but another 75km range gets me between chargers at normal speed.
There will no doubt be queues for chargers on the way to holiday destinations, in the same places that the volume of traffic currently causes delays. People will adopt strategies, such as an early charge, driving slowly and leaving when traffic is lighter. It might even eliminate the traffic jams.
Snowdonia and the Highlands are getting chargers, that was covered earlier in the thread. Have a little faith. In three and a half years of EV use I've gone from being dependant on a few strategic chargers to being able to charge almost anywhere and twice as fast. The trend will continue. I've never run out despite expecting to. When I bought the first Zoé Renault provided a free pick up for flat battery service. I expected to use it but a combination of luck and judgement meant I never did.
I really do find your obsession with 150kW chargers odd. I suggest you need a lifestyle change rather than faster chargers if you are in that much of a hurry. 😉
Has anyone any experience with a second hand Zoe?
It would be an older model maybe 2015 with battery lease.
How did you find the lease aspect and what was it like trying to sell it at the end? If a private sale how does the battery lease handover work?
Oh, and what was the real world range like?
Thanks
Look I’m on the EV bandwagon we’re getting one we just don’t see at this time how having one for the longer journeys is viable within our current lifestyle nor have faith in the reliability of the networks.
My commute to work is 220 miles in a Model 3 LR.
220 miles isn't what I would call a long journey
I really do find your obsession with 150kW chargers odd. I suggest you need a lifestyle change rather than faster chargers if you are in that much of a hurry.
I don't want to spend my time hunting working charging points and then sitting around for longer than necessary and I think you'll find the masses won't either in order to get the EV market really up and running.
I've got better things to do in my life.
I suggest you need a lifestyle change rather than faster chargers if you are in that much of a hurry.
Surely it's not just about people being in a hurry. Faster charging is another way of adding capacity - either have more places to charge or make them charge faster so each place can accommodate more vehicles per day. (or both)
220 miles isn’t what I would call a long journey
Me, I’d say anything over 180 miles is a long journey.
220 miles isn’t what I would call a long journey
True, but you could easily do 220 miles + 20 minute stop to recharge and stretch legs + 220 miles without a problem.
And that’s the thing, will the middle of Snowdonia or the Highlands get them?
They'll get fast chargers, but probably not the big charging hubs IMO.
Most people don’t regularly do huge mileages back to back
No but the point is that sometimes we do, for example on holiday, and those are the times they're worried about. As am I, and I'm very much pro EV.
I've been thinking about going to one bigger EV after the lease is up and getting rid of diesel, but it has occurred to me that we'd need a high mileage allowance to cover potential holidays and that could be prohibitively expensive. And there's no way we can afford to actually buy a £50k car. Well, we could, but it would take a massive chunk of our monthly disposable income and be pretty imprudent.
Perhaps it's a Scottish thing because of CPS, but one of the big reasons we were OK getting on board was how long we spent parked next to chargers. We ride bikes eh. Had become aware of them and noticed how many were everywhere we ride.
Dunkeld, Aberfeldy, Ballater, Peebles, Pitlochry, Aviemore... Even Laggan trail centre.
This weekends riding involved a 45 min charge on the inners rapid. Got back from riding and plugged it in before sorting the bikes. A wipe down, re-lube, changed and ate a sandwich and the van is back at 95% ready for the week. Free fuel. No hunting, no waiting, just making use of the time we were busy and near the van.
Isn't part of the solution to have generic chargers at the hubs - with the option to use your supplier of choice - then competition is for subscriptions to suppliers, or extension on your domestic tariff to get cheaper prices etc - and the infrastructure costs are reduced to a shared overhead
It can't be that expensive to put in generic rapid charges in rural villages and towns if all suppliers can be accessed through a single charger
Nearly all campsites have standard blue camping sockets.
So campsites that have electric hook up and you get a pitch that has electric hook up? i.e. all campsites that have charges have a charger where they have charger.
I suspect outdoor activity hubs like trail centres will get them first.
Re campsites - many won't appreciate you plugging your car into the hookup points. Caravan club have said that they don't want you plugging directly into the pillar on their main sites, you have to plug into the van itself; and you have to check to make sure they can handle the extra draw. So don't rock up expecting to be able to plug in - check when you book.
If the campsite's electrical supply is safe for a kettle it's safe for an electric car, they're both about 10A. I've used campsites in the UK, Spain, Germany, France without issue. They have circuit breakers on every electrical point. If the breaker is rated higher than it is safe to draw I suggest you report them to the local authorities for an unsafe electrical installation. A camper van with electrical heating will draw significantly more than an EV.
The whole point of the 10A charger block is that you can safely plug it in anywhere with an electrcial supply that complies with the regulations. I just ask what breaker rating they have in the boxes.
A camper van with electrical heating will draw significantly more than an EV.
Well the 3kW charger draws more than the 1.something kW electric heater in our van, and that would be on top of the heating and everything else if it's being used.
But the wiring might not be specified to handle that much current all the time, which is why I suggested phoning ahead. But then again I'm not an argumentative cock and I don't look forward to an angry discussion with a farmer so like I say, probably best to phone ahead and check. And offer to pay extra for the power, since it'll be a fair bit more consumption than a caravan would be especially in summer.
It's a 2kW charger unless it's pluggee into a specific greenup socket.
It just doesn't matter, molgrips. If you draw to much th ebreaker will trip. If that isn't the case the campsite's electrical installation is dangerous.
I worked on a campsite and a frequent task was resetting breakers. It was 1987 so there was already a 30mA differential breaker in every box which was no issue for European clients. But the Brits arrived with old hair driers that leaked electricity and tripped. They invariably blamed the "dodgy French electrics" rather than their dangerous old hair driers.
If people drew too much juice the 10A/16A breaker tripped and they came to find me to reset it, and then hopefully learned not to switch on everything at the same time.
If people drew too much juice the 10A/16A breaker tripped and they came to find me to reset it, and then hopefully learned not to switch on everything at the same time.
Right, and that's what the farmer who owns the small campsite wants to avoid, I think.
It just doesn’t matter, molgrips. If you draw to much th ebreaker will trip.
It's not dangerous but if you were camping and discovered that your neighbouring pitch was hogging 65% of the shared supply all day it'd get annoying.
Well reassure him then, if he's got 10A breakers or higher he can welcome EV owners with open arms. I like the subtle way you accuse me of being "an argumentative cock", very clever. And very Molgrips. 🙂
It’s not dangerous but if you were camping and discovered that your neighbouring pitch was hogging 65% of the shared supply all day it’d get annoying
Each socket has its own breaker, that's the rules here. You can't pinch someone elses electricity. The total amperage of the box and breakers is calculated so every one can plug in without risk. If one camper exceeds the rating that breaker will trip but the others in the box will not. Other campers will not be affected.
The only time the whole box trips is when something defective is plugged in which triggers the differential breaker (of which there is usually only one for the whole box).
My commute to work is 220 miles in a Model 3 LR.
Which is within the cars realms of easily making the journey each day without charging till you get home. Plus its a commute so you'll quickly learn the best available charge points on the way if needed.
Surely it’s not just about people being in a hurry. Faster charging is another way of adding capacity – either have more places to charge or make them charge faster so each place can accommodate more vehicles per day. (or both)
Exactly, its about throughput. Fuel stations are quick affairs, in and out in circa 5 minutes. With charging points you're looking at 30+ mins and up to say 90. That can easily cause big queues as the EV market increases. You reduce that charging time and you 'll get more cars through reducing queues and it's better for average joes life not standing around waiting unlike Edukator who has nothing better to do. 😉
Campsite we were at had “don’t plug EVs into site power” in their rules but I saw a few sneaky granny charging. If you can run a heater there should be no issue with car charging - lots of cars (or granny chargers) let you dial it down a bit if you’re concerned anyway.
Did the 300 miles home from Cornwall yesterday and while I had been quite keen on the electric Berlingo I wouldn’t have wanted to add any more time really. Would have been 2 stops and few good options where I’d have needed them, and mostly where we stopped for kids to go to the toilet had nothing. Think we’ll be keeping the petrol MPV a few more years even if it’s just for camping trips with bikes and roofbox.
What would change things more for me than super rapid charging is hotels having loads of 7kw (enough that you don’t need to fret about there being a free one). I’d gladly break journeys in a Premier Inn or similar if I have a full car in the morning. No good booking somewhere only to find the handful of chargers are in use or blocked. Likewise when I stay in places like north Wales if they have charging (even an outside socket) I just have to worry about getting there, not also having enough to get out.
Doing over 200 miles up to Yorkshire for half term but that’ll be in a cottage with charging (and ok options along the way) so taking the egolf. Lease is up in January, and I suspect we’ll not replace it for now but see how we go with one (petrol) car for a bit until secondhand EV prices calm down.
lots of cars (or granny chargers) let you dial it down a bit if you’re concerned anyway.
That's the thing, the owners would have to rely on people doing it right and obviously they won't so for now they don't want to allow it at all. In many cases anyway.
Less about that, more about money IMO. Lots seem to get it in their heads everyone will be filling up a Tesla every night and their power bills are usually high enough as it is.
They could just stick a surcharge on. I suspect they are worrying about their wiring or perhaps there's a reg somewhere I dunno.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/01/shell-on-street-ev-charge-points-2025
Shell has announced its aim to install 50,000 on-street electric vehicle (EV) charging points in the UK over the next four years, in an attempt to provide a third of the network needed to hit national climate change targets.
This is good, because it suggests there's money in providing chargers.
It suggests there is tax saving and greenwashing in providing chargers. We'll sse how many they do, it's easy to "aim" for and then do **** all. They were aiming to fill old oil wells with carbon remember.
or perhaps there’s a reg somewhere I dunno.
If you can't find it with Google there isn't one. Simon's money argument sounds more likely. Given what most campsites charge for leccy the only time you would cost them money is on a one night stay arriving just after lunch with an empty battery and then charging till you leave the next day just before lunch - I could draw 7e worth if I did that. It's discrimination simple as, they're happy for a huge all-electric campervan with air-con to plug in but not car. Campsites can get very favourable elctricity contracts BTW. There are business contracts which offer favourable rates except in high demand periods when the tarif becomes punitive, campsites don't operate in high demand periods.
All-electric caravans are starting to become a thing too, no faffing with gas bottles: https://www.knaus.com/en-uk/brand-world/new-models-2022/epower/
The more enlightened campsites have a couple
of 7kw car chargers by reception for people to book and use. Easier to discourage granny charging if you give an alternative.
It suggests there is tax saving and greenwashing in providing chargers. We’ll sse how many they do, it’s easy to “aim” for and then do **** all. They were aiming to fill old oil wells with carbon remember.
🥱 Certainly they won't be providing charging facilities out of the goodness of their heart. I doubt there is much money in it yet, but strategically they must see future value. Charging EVs cheaply is probably a limited-time offer after all.
It suggests there is tax saving and greenwashing in providing chargers
Ah, yes, 'greenwashing'. A catch-all term for painting any company you don't like in a bad light, even if they do something that is actually useful. Boundless constant negativity is just what we all need here Ed so thanks.
8 year old Model S with 11% battery degredation... which is pretty normal actually despite end of the world predictions 🙂
And all on 99% renewable electricity I think - cause that's what's generated in Norway
8 year old Model S with 11% battery degredation
Way better than typical degradation of mobile phone batteries and the like. What gives? Do they build-in additional capacity, or is the use pattern of a car battery typically better / less intensive ?
Boundless constant negativity is just what we all need here Ed so thanks.
LOL, love you too. 🙂
Who's spent the last couple of pages trying to rubbish the fact you can charge on campsites?
Who’s spent the last couple of pages trying to rubbish the fact you can charge on campsites?
Not me, I said that it might be a good idea to phone ahead and check if the owner is ok with it. Not really controversial.
Way better than typical degradation of mobile phone batteries and the like. What gives?
There are many things that affect battery lifetime - charging current relative to battery size; how empty or full it's allowed to get; how hot it gets during charging, to name a few. Modern EVs cool or heat the battery to the optimum temperature during charging and discharging, which really helps battery capacity. Your phone gets warm during charging and also during heavy use discharging which isn't good for it.
Also, battery lifetime is measured in numbers of cycles. My phone gets half (or more) discharged every day and brimmed every night, so 800 cycles (a good lifetime) comes up in 2-3 years. If a Tesla is typically doing say 200 miles between charges then a typical 8-year mileage of 80,000 miles is only 400 cycles, so in terms of battery age it's only half as old.
Lastly, many manufacturers (but not Tesla, apparently) reserve the top and bottom end of the battery to preserve its life. When they report 100% it's really only say 90%. This has two benefits - it makes the battery last a long time to begin with, and if there is any degradation it's masked because you lose the bit you could never use anyway. I'm sure I read a post about an Ioniq with 4 years on it that still had 100% battery condition reported, don't be surprised if they last a long longer than Teslas. Tesla recommend you to only charge to 90%, but by allowing you to go to 100% occasionally it lets them claim a higher range figure and inevitably people will use it and this will result in batteries not lasting as long as they otherwise would.
https://pushevs.com/2021/07/30/gac-aion-with-fast-charging-speed-comparable-to-refueling/
Sorry Edukator, no more spending an hour at charging stations. 😅
Way better than typical degradation of mobile phone batteries and the like. What gives?
Along with limiting the use of the battery's bottom and top capacity as @molgrips says the exact chemistry of the Li-ion batteries can be different depending on how you want to balance cost, energy density and lifespan. Phones require a cheap battery that has good capacity in a device that's expected to be replaced every two years so they spec for that. They also use the biggest possible voltage range for the cell when charging/discharging knowing it'll doesn't need to last.
Plug Life Television on YouTube has some good videos (mostly the early ones are about batteries) and batteries are his day job so he knows his stuff.
Ah, yes, ‘greenwashing’. A catch-all term for painting any company you don’t like in a bad light, even if they do something that is actually useful
I think it's right to be sceptical when a big oil company invests in EV charging. Look at the mess BP have made with Chargemaster/BP Pulse and ChargePlace Scotland. They really have no incentive to provide a reliable EV charging network and every incentive not to.
They really have no incentive to provide a reliable EV charging network and every incentive not to.
Except for the fact that their market in the UK will change and in the not too distant future their fuels on forecourts won't be selling in the volumes it does today.
They have every incentive to get a good foothold in what will be a very large market eventually but they seem to be failing at it right now.
Sorry Edukator, no more spending an hour at charging stations. 😅
Oh dear, I've gone from having enough time for a complete city break (3kW in Romford of all places), to enough time for lunch and an organ recital in a cathedral (7kW in Rabastens- now upgraded to 22kW), to enough time for a shop and a coffee (22kW Leclerc St Flour) to enough time for just a shop (35kW Montluçon) to enough time for a pee and a coffee (any genuine 50kW). Any faster and there won't be time for a coffee. 🙁
Except for the fact that their market in the UK will change and in the not too distant future their fuels on forecourts won’t be selling in the volumes it does today.
Yeah I’m not getting uponthedowns’ point.
uponthedowns makes a very good point:
Mobil and other oil companies are also shown to be advertising directly against electric cars in national publications, even when electric cars seem to have little to do with their core business. At the end of the film, Chevron bought patents and controlling interest in Ovonics, the advanced battery company featured in the film, ostensibly to prevent modern NiMH batteries from being used in non-hybrid electric cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
Just like the legacy automotive OEMs, its in big oil's interests to delay the change to EVs for as long as possible to milk their fossil fuel market. Buying up a promising EV network, making big promises then not delivering or investing seems to be the MO at the moment. They also seem to be good at installing rapid chargers then leaving them mothballed without connecting them to the grid. Guess it allows them to say they have installed chargers even though they are unusable. I think they need to be judged on their actions and not promises. Hopefully the likes of Instavolt, Osprey, MFG and maybe Gridserve will drive the UK charging infrastructure development needed to encourage drivers into EVs.
Just like the legacy automotive OEMs, its in big oil’s interests to delay the change to EVs for as long as possible
Which works in markets which haven't legislated to cease sales of ICE cars, doesn't quite work in the UK.
This thread made me go and check the status of the BP Pulse 150kW chargers they put in around a year ago in Derby and never switched on, seem they were working a week ago but are off again now.
I'm not sure a film from 2008 is very relevant now.
I think it’s right to be sceptical when a big oil company invests in EV charging.
They're an energy company.
What would you do if you were boss of Shell? Stick your head in the sand or react to a new market? I don't understand what the problem is here. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
By the way the fast chargers I know about near here are Shell or BP and they work.
I’m not sure a film from 2008 is very relevant now.
Particularly as it relates to events from the 1990s..
By the way the fast chargers I know about near here are Shell or BP and they work.
Yeah the ones in Northumberland were BP they’ve only recently changed, very rare there were any issues.
I think the Stonecutters no longer hold back the electric car.
EV1s were also a bit shit, arguably did a fair bit to hold back the progress of EVs. They were 'laugh at the nerd' type things along the lines of a Sinclair C5, not anything anyone would want. I think we have a lot to thank Musk for.
Might've been better outside the US though.
OK I'll leave you with your apparently touching faith in big oil to keep your EVs on the road.
https://twitter.com/bppulseuk/status/1432274864941977600
OK I’ll leave you with your apparently touching faith in big oil to keep your EVs on the road.
No need to twist what we've said to extremes. All I said was that it looks like there's money in it. Why wouldn't a company take advantage of that?
The batteries weren't good enough when the EV1 was introduced but had a very low Cd and lots of innovation e.g. plastic body panels, aluminium chassis.
Sandy Munro has interesting observations on it “I think that the EV1 was the best project I ever worked on,”
https://leandesign.com/the-legacy-of-the-ev1-from-creation-to-destruction/
All I said was that it looks like there’s money in it. Why wouldn’t a company take advantage of that?
Because there's more money in it keeping us buying petrol for as long as possible.
Just like legacy auto wanted to keep us buying ICE cars for as long as possible until Tesla came along and started eating their lunch
Does it not ring alarm bells with anyone else to see oil companies installing charge points, often benefitting from state aid and then charging high prices for leccy? Totalenergies has just won another contract and one thing is for certain the charge points will be expensive.
When the oil industry controls the charging market you can be sure you pay a lot for electricity once you leave home.
Not the 1990s:
https://www.automobile-entreprise.com/Recharge-electrique-TotalEnergies,11475
Not the 1990s:
In Germany some of the oil company controlled charge points had punitive tarifs, happily there were usually competitors with more attractive prices.
One of the brakes on EV uptake is the cost of charging anywhere other than at home. It started free or cheap, but as the oil companies monopolise or create a cartel situation you'll pay more. It's not just the oil companies. That so many economic actors are owned by the same investment funds reduces real cometition where you think it would exist.
This is getting a bit jivehoneyjive but if you think that having charging in the hands of the traditional energy majors is a good thing I think your wallet is mistaken.
