It's a shame the CEO is an utter bellend, and I'd rather he wasn't involved, but I don't go so far as to project that on to the person who buys one. I just think they made an informed decision based on a whole load of personal financial and use variables and tried not to think about it much beyond that. Maybe I should.
if it’s 2025 or later registered - I’d be judging. Buying ONLY on what suits you and your finances without any considerations as to its provenance or impact is a dick move whether it’s a car or a piece of carry-on luggage.
A enjoyable car to drive, well, obviously no, but I haven't been in an electric car yet that I'd say that about
Somebody else made a similar point earlier and I meant to pick up on it then; but are EVs really always less enjoyable to drive than ICE cars? They are both just a box with a wheel at each corner. They go when you press the go pedal and stop when you press the stop pedal. EVs are heavier but have more torque that can be delivered almost instantly at any speed, which you might think would lead to a bit of fun. So is it just as simple as "lighter cars are more fun to drive than heavier ones" or is there something else going on here?
So is it just as simple as "lighter cars are more fun to drive than heavier ones" or is there something else going on here?
It's a windsurfers (kite board, wing foil - take your modern pick) vs jet ski thing. Jet skis are very fast and you squeeze the throttle and it accelerates like ****. But to everyone but those with zero imagination the 'fun' soon wanes. Windsurfers take lots of skill to go similar speeds and there's a real challenge to the experience. (Some) EV's are delivered to the consumer able to accelerate at faster than supercar numbers but a light little hot hatch that with the right skill you can learn and develop whilst owning is hugely enjoyable around corners in a way a heavy car never will be. Partly just because it's heavy and 'physics' and partly because of the weight the suspension can't easily be set up to be 'fun'.
Or something like that.
are EVs really always less enjoyable to drive than ICE cars?
Depends on your definition of enjoyment
I enjoy driving an EV much more than all the ICE cars I’ve previously owned.
I like smooth, quiet and relaxing over “making progress “
Talking of fun, I went to see one of these the other day. I was supposed to go for a test drive on Saturday but managed to food poison myself and spend 2 days in bed, so need to rearrange later this week. Arnold Clark were happy for me to take it out despite telling them if I do get one it will be through work and not from them.
On the fun vs weight thing my ID3 weighs nearly 2 tons, I don't find it at all fun to drive as you can feel every kilo of its weight on a B road. Yes it's comfortable, quiet, quick enough and all those other things but not fun. My previous i3S was fun. It wasn't as comfortable on the motorway, probably not as quiet and was a bit quicker but it was a much more engaging (if slightly twitchy at times) drive, it used to make me smile. I think it weighed around 1300kg?
Again the R5 I drove the other day was definitely a lot more fun than the ID3, the R5 is 1400kg. It made me smile.
My Golf GTI is around 1400kg too and that is more fun than anything else mentioned. It's not fast compared to Teslas or many other EVs but there's only so fast you can sensibly use and as a daily car on my commute it's ideal. It can be more "fun" to get around a twisty bit of road legally at the speed limit than have to slow as a 2ton tank wallows around the corner and then accelerate the other side. I also still like changing gear sometimes 🙂 YMMV.
It's not just weight, it's also how the suspension and power work with / to hide the weight but undeniably EVs are heavy and it is more difficult to make heavy fun.
Also lugging around 600 - 700kg of extra weight I don't need 90% of the time isn't great for efficiency.
Some people won't care, some people only drive on the motorway or sit in queues of traffic and for them comfort & toys / tech is probably a higher priority.
Depends on your definition of enjoyment
I enjoy driving an EV much more than all the ICE cars I’ve
This.
But I appreciate everyone is different and I am relatively old and the opposite might be true for you.
I haven't 'gone for a drive' for decades but the EV takes the chore out of 'dads taxi' or the 70 mile motorway round trip to care for elderly parents. Crawling through traffic jams / stop start traffic is now relaxed.
Looking forwards to changing the other petrol car for an EV
You're not comparing like for like, really. There is no lightweight agile EV, no-one has tried to make one (except perhaps MG). You should be comparing most current EVs with something like one of those modestly fast Audi estates, and there isn't a huge difference in weight. When you are talking about normal cars (for example Leaf vs normal Golf), EVs do pretty well IME. You get more power, good weight distribution and the instant on/off torque is a hoot on very twisty roads - you can zip around in a way that is not possible in any ICE. My Hyundai is completely underwhelming in any spec, but it's much more fun than a normal boring cheap car on windy roads because of the weight balance and zip.
I really like ev and very happy with my choice. However, I've gone from 700 miles a tank to 200 miles, so I'm very conscious of the battery draining due to the range dropping far quicker than the previous car.
However, that isn't really the bit that makes driving boring for me now...it is the constant changing speed limits and how the slower speeds is making journey times longer.
Aware that sounds very lame, but driving for me now is just getting me to a destination so I can do something. The driving is a means to an end and the longer the drive takes, the more annoying it is.
I'm all for the lower speeds from a safety point of view, just the longer journey times wind me up.
My childish reasoning is why I find driving boring now (as I no longer enjoy driving for driving, it just lets me do stuff I want to do).
I think I'll go down a size for next ev...they seem to be type approved for towballs now so I don't need the bigger vehicle. That should increase the range a bit, but won't fix the longer drive times.
I want a great big button in my next EV that makes the car automatically respects speed limits. Constantly changing limits don't bore me they drive me nuts and I find myself asking Madame "we've been out of the village for kms now, it can't possibly still be 50kmh but there hasn't been a sign, can you turn Google maps on please".
I went to look at the Cupra Born today. Crewe dealership, who didn't seem that interested when I told them it would be a company car. Anyway, interior is nice, better than in the photos. I thought the bronze Cupra colour would be too much, but it's subtle enough. Would like to test drive one at some point.
I want a great big button in my next EV that makes the car automatically respects speed limits. Constantly changing limits don't bore me they drive me nuts and I find myself asking Madame "we've been out of the village for kms now, it can't possibly still be 50kmh but there hasn't been a sign, can you turn Google maps on please".
my Cupra Born does this, it has some sort of intelligent speed assist that reads the road signs and slows the car automatically to the correct speed when you lift off the accelerator as you go from 60 to 40 etc and also displays the current speed limit on the dash and when using the cruise control it reads the road ahead and adjusts the speed for bends, very handy.
I dont see that the Tesla network is all that, at least not any more.
The 47p / kWh when charging from 20 to 100 % was quite welcome the other night when I was recharging the Buzz . The cars opposite on gridserve were probably paying almost double that 😮
How does the Tesla chargers work? Do you need an account? Need to preload money on it?
How does the Tesla chargers work? Do you need an account? Need to preload money on it?
I’ve got a Tesla app on my phone . Credit card is linked to it. You get invoices etc , which are useful for accounts etc
It will indicate if the charger sites are opened up for use by other vehicles , then you just plug in , tell it which stall you are using and press start. It even tells you the cost per kWh which changes dependant on time .
really simple , and handily quite a few are opened up on the longer journeys I take for work.
Download the app, create an account, enter a credit card, select charge station on the app and navigate to it, plug in car, select the charger on the app (3d etc.), launch charge from the app, when the car is charged stop the charge from the app and unplug. The app shows charge rate and cost, and replicates the car's charge info. There's a historic of your use. Works perfectly. You many need Google maps to find some of the chargers as I've found the Tesla blue dot less than accurate.
The app also tells you how many chargers at a site are in use/free and a graph of use over the day so you can plan your charges to avoid peak times at busy sites.
Ta, will take a look. Before I do, how much is a Tesla charge per kWh?
Variable depending on the site and time of day, it'll only take you a minute or two to download the app to find out. I have been paying 39-49cents in France, about the same in Holland, a bit more in Germany and my last charge in the UK was 49p.
How does the Tesla chargers work? Do you need an account? Need to preload money on it?
Its worth bearing in mind that many of the older Tesla chargers have VERY short cables, so at busy times (when you can't park at an odd angle or in the adjacent bay) and if your car has the charging port on a location other than the left rear, they may not reach. I had this with my I3 at the Trafford centre ones.
Now I've followed Fully Charged for a long time as I bought my Leaf about the same time Robert Lewellyn bought his. It used to be the only EV channel worth watching but has had more competition of late. However they just posted a vid of the Shanghai Auto show...just wow. If anyone doubts that A. EVs are the future and B. The Chinese are coming.....just watch this:
I wonder if China’s EVs will get better at the non-drivetrain and manufacturing stuff. I’ve now had 3 different MGs as hire cars for a total of 7 weeks and in all of them, the sensors, systems and OS controlling the car were ruddy awful.
Two examples spring to mind. South of France in an MG SUV - the entire dash and instrument system just switched off whilst driving at 90kph. Radio and nav were still sending audio, but the latter had defaulted to Chinese. A restart of the car fixed it…for 15km but no matter how many times I altered the languages after this, it spoke in German with maps in English with a Chinese menu. Sooo confusing!
Driving on a Spanish motorway from Bilbao to San Sebastián in an MG4 at 120kph and the motorway is bending to the left. The car in the outside lane goes past on the right and the sensors on my car pickup the overtaking car, slam on the brake and drag the wheel to the right almost causing me to hit the truck to my right. It did this several times in low light conditions.
at no point was I ever out of position in my lane.
I spent almost 2 years in an MG5. I learned to carry a 10mm in the glove box so that every time it shat the bed I could reset the car by disconnecting the negative terminal in the 12V battery.
However, the fact that the 12V reset the issue just proves that the problem was poorly designed electronics and not the high(er) voltage traction system.
It's also the car where I learned the importance of charging speed over range.
The Kia EV6 is a much nicer placed to be and earlier this week, happily added 40% to the battery in the ten minutes it took to go for a wee.
Well the EV6 costs in excess of twice the MG5 and is more modern so I’d expect it to be a better car. I don’t think that’s a very fair comparison. Both the posts above are also talking about the last generation of Chinese EVs. I think the takeaway from the Shanghai show is the sheer speed and size of the Chinese Automotive sector in just a decade. I have no doubt that the latest generation of their vehicles will be just as good if not better than the competitors but also cheaper. They are going to flood the zone (which is not necessarily a good thing btw)
The only reason for comparing the MG5 to the EV6 is that these are the two cars I've done thousands of miles in and therefore, able to comment on
The other point is that the MG5 is a bad car, but not because it's an EV.
@winston thanks for posting and that was a real eye opener. Interesting that sodium-ion batteries in cars will be coming out later this year and the energy density of them is getting much better.
Does anybody know of a site that will give you historical data on the occupancy rates of chargers? I know apps like ZapMap etc will show you how many chargers are currently available at each site but it would be interesting to see what the data look like over time. For example, we’ve just had the Easter weekend, which is a fairly busy time on the roads. Where there sites that were busy while others still had lots of free chargers or were all sites busy?
@winston - maybe, but my point was more that they’ve nailed the hardware aspects, but the software and systems integration are poor and this isn’t just with EVs. This is a common complaint for a lot of Chinese tech. My inverter for example works fine, but things get altered in pushed software updates which randomly lockout key features or, remove them entirely. Similarly the cooling fan for the control electronics is/was mounted with a cross threaded screw which allowed it to vibrate at certain frequencies.
We have a production line in China and it took and continues to take vast amounts of effort to make sure that both assembly and procurement don’t try to cut seemingly small corners in order to maintain headline rate.
I’m always amazed by their speed of development but in many cases it seems to come at the expense of quality and control. Don’t get me wrong, it’s never catastrophic but in many cases, it simply shouldn’t be happening at all.
In that video they literally talk about how much better the software has become in a very short time and how it is the legacy brands that can’t integrate software properly.
This is going to sound conspiracy theory / spy novel, but we've had a number of talks at work about the risks from unfriendly nations, and that we are already at economic war whether we accept it or not. eg: https://www.npsa.gov.uk/
I'm therefore concerned about all this software control by car companies, etc. Like I say spy novel stuff but how many connect your phones to cars to be able to control your charging, or pre-heat on a cold day, etc. To play media and have it read your messages to you and tell you when you have an email. It's entirely feasible that these could be nicking data or used to back door into systems, may even be able to do that now. And while the CN car cos claim to be independent*, where is the trust really?
*that said, 1984 style I'm not sure I trust the American ones either. Or the French, German, Korean.......
It's not totally mad to think that someone in the Chinese government could think of something useful to do with all that data.
One of the arguments about the "dumping" of Chinese EVs on the market is that it's a good thing for Western consumers - don't we want a rapid uptake of EVs? And if the Chinese government is so silly as to subsidise them for us - well, fine, let's grab them while they're still available.
But could the CCP be so keen on market penetration with short term losses because they'll be able to capture and control all that data (and maybe the OSs...?) in the long term?
Curious, do home chargers attach to a spur off the meter or off the main fuse box?
how it is the legacy brands that can’t integrate software properly
I test drove a Polestar 4 last week. The likely alternative to a new Tesla next year for us. Polestar software and software/car/UX is pretty advanced but Tesla’s makes it look only OK. Other EVs’ software I’ve experienced seem poor and aligns with your comment.
do home chargers attach to a spur off the meter or off the main fuse box?
Mine is direct off the meter. Don't know if that's universal. Mine's a Zappi, but if there is a variation, I suspect that the installer and DNO have more effect than the brand.
We watched Harry's Garage review of the Renault 5 last night.
That would make a great replacement for our Fiesta.
I think chargers can come from the main fuse box, but mine is a teed off from the incoming supply cables directly after the meter - it means that there is no question about the condition or quality of the fuse board so I was happy with that arrangement.
do home chargers attach to a spur off the meter or off the main fuse box
Mine is from the main fuse box.
Re Chinese EVs - there are lots of companies in China, I don't think they are all the same.
You're not comparing like for like, really. There is no lightweight agile EV, no-one has tried to make one (except perhaps MG). You should be comparing most current EVs with something like one of those modestly fast Audi estates, and there isn't a huge difference in weight. When you are talking about normal cars (for example Leaf vs normal Golf), EVs do pretty well IME. You get more power, good weight distribution and the instant on/off torque is a hoot on very twisty roads - you can zip around in a way that is not possible in any ICE. My Hyundai is completely underwhelming in any spec, but it's much more fun than a normal boring cheap car on windy roads because of the weight balance and zip.
Just reminds me of when my Mk2 Escort was a bit porky at about 980kg (after fitting a steel roll cage), and needed a few mods like fibreglass bonnet and boot lid, to get it down a bit. Blimey that's completely anorexic nowadays.
I think chargers can come from the main fuse box, but mine is a teed off from the incoming supply cables directly after the meter
I've had two installed and they both did this. The consumer units only had type AC RCDs and they didn't want to go messing around.
The second install did get a sharp intake of breath from the engineer who came to swap the meter because there was a lot of chunky cabling and a mini consumer unit wedged into the meter box, which I gather they're not a fan of.
RE the chinese EVs.. I've become a bit obsessed and in awe of the Yangway (chuckle) u7 and 9... the tech in tehm is incredible, adn seems really well executed (in teh promo and review videos. mind).
The suspension in them is bonkers - it has something like 125kW of 'power', in the sense it can generate that much force via linear movement - the car can track the terrain, and jump!!!
Have a look on youtube!
I'm keeping the polestar for as long as, but I'd deffo go for a BYD next..
DrP
Re Chinese EVs - there are lots of companies in China, I don't think they are all the same.
I have an MG4 and I’d agree that the software is a bit rubbish. But I also think that comments about Chinese EVs (and other stuff) often relies on stereotypes. In my previous life as a working person I made a few trips to China and it was like a glimpse of the future. Also a glimpse of the past, but that’s another thing.
The suspension in them is bonkers - it has something like 125kW of 'power', in the sense it can generate that much force via linear movement
Yet another idea I had 15 years ago that people have finally got around to making 🙂
The terrain tracking software/suspension concept has been around since the 90s. It just wasn't very good until we got decent, high accuracy sensors and fast enough (and cheap enough!) processors and actuators. Trying to do it with cameras and ultrasound over CAN leads to all sorts of weird behaviour. Especially when the systems get out of sync. Then you get involuntary hopping. But (mostly) car sickness.
Now it's all proper high speed protocols, LIDAR, high power/frequency ultrasound and multiple cameras feeding into high end graphics processors running dedicated software. An order of magnitude easier than autonomous driving, but using many of the same systems.
Was involved in a demo of a pothole detecting/single wheel lifting function about 10 years ago, which TBH would probably be the most beneficial thing we could do right now with the state of the roads in much of the world!
11/4/25
Current price is 28.96p/kWh during the day, offer is to fix for 12 months at slightly lower day rate of 27.88p/kWh. Night rate is 7p/kWh on both. Seems like a no-brainer to fix for 12 months, or is there really the possibility of rates falling over the year?
My answer
1/ If you look at the trend graphs, and ignoring the high rates in 22/23 which were due to other factors and the gov underpinned us during, the price tends to drop in summer and increase in winter. So I think there's a fair chance it'll go down in the next cap and then up again next winter. Of course, we tend to use more in winter so the surety against that increase in the winter vs the possibly smaller amount you'd lose thru summer is your call.
2/ ML suggests similar in his latest forecast
3/ Cynically, if they're offering you to fix at a lower price that indicates that prices will decrease by more than their offer.....they're not a charity and have people being paid to do these calcs.
The real answer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5r190y3kko
A 9% fall in July, followed by prediction of two further falls in Oct and Jan 26
So mainly 3/ then......
New electric Mercedes CLA available to order (in Germany at least).
This could be a bit of a bombshell. Nearly 500 miles on the WTLP, £47k (if the price stays the same here) and it's a Benz - it may or may not be more refined than a Hyundai but you will probably be able to get parts.
I wish that CLA had been available when i was ordering my EQA. I love my EQA but thats more my cup of tea. In comparison its also quite cheap too. As with everything electronic, the next generations will be improvements. I dont think i will be going back to ICE now as EV tick all the boxes for me.
That merc does look like a bit of a game changer.
I've been quite impressed by our merc eqc even though it's now quite old in ev tech terms, I think they did a decent job.
I'm a bit "yeah but, no but" on that Merc.
On the one hand I accept that these sort of cars might be what is required to tempt people from their ICE cars but on the other hand:
The current race to add ever more range is part of what makes depreciation of EVs so high, which drives up the total cost of ownership. This £50k car wont look nearly as attractive in a couple of years when 600 miles is normal.
Focusing on increasing the range means we are not focusing on the real issue, which should be improving the charging infrastructure. The vast majority of drivers never drive more than 200 miles in one go. A car with, say, a 300 mile range is always going to be cheaper and lighter (so more efficient) than one with a 500 mile range. So the 300 mile range car is the better option for the vast majority as long as they can be confident of finding a charger when they stop. If manufacturers keep pushing cars with 500+ mile range that hardly ever need to be charged on-the-road then that reduces the willingness of charge point operators to invest in more chargers.
Focusing on increasing the range means we are not focusing on the real issue, which should be improving the charging infrastructure.
Cheaper,good, cars with average range (i.e. the R5) will get more people buying EVs which will lead to more demand for charging infrastructure.
Cars with big ranges, but are expensive, will not increase the number of EVs on the road due to their price tag - and won't necessarily lead to more public chargers as they won't be needed.
The current race to add ever more range is part of what makes depreciation of EVs so high, which drives up the total cost of ownership.
Not for used buyers, which is most of us. I'm all for depreciation!
Re the range, that's an 84kWh battery which is pretty normal sized, but there's also going to be a smaller one - 58 I think - which will have perfectly reasonable range and should be a chunk cheaper still. I think a lot of people will be drawn to the badge alone when it's the same range and price as a Hyundai.
Re the super long range, it is of interest to me specifically as I want to tow so I'm looking at 50% of those range numbers. Now that's not a big car so it might not tow much, and is probably smaller than my preference anyway. But I can't wait to see what else comes out on that platform.
as I posted a week ago
So the 300 mile range car is the better option for the vast majority as long as they can be confident of finding a charger when they stop
But there is still the huge upcharge to 'on the road' charging.
7p/kw vs 65p/kw?
If you can do all your charging at home that will be a big incentive to switch for some
I think that is a short term thing though and possibly not helped by the "promise" of longer range cars in the near future.
If I'm a charge point operator looking to invest millions into installing charge points and I know that there may be cars coming soon that will reduce demand, I'm going to want to make sure I get a return on my investment quickly, which means high costs per kwh.
It strikes me that the Merc Molgrips linked is the car you've been demanding through the last 20 pages, Roverpig.
And you only have to cross Europe using Tesla superchargers to know that investing millions to charge cars with a long range can be highly profitable. Check out the occupancy graphs on the Tesal app, the price difference between wholesale leccy and the Tesla price, and the kWhs sold and you'll find that Tesla is making good money from many of its locations.
The Merc is interesting because of the efficiency gains, fairly normal battery size but massive improvement in range could be a big step forward if the range is even close.
Public charging is like going back 40 years for mpg equivalence but if we can see EVs with 6miles per kWh then suddenly public charging becomes a viable alternative.
It strikes me that the Merc Molgrips linked is the car you've been demanding through the last 20 pages, Roverpig.
Yeah, but I'm an idiot. Nobody should be building cars based on what I want 😀
The Merc is interesting because of the efficiency gains, fairly normal battery size but massive improvement in range could be a big step forward if the range is even close.
Good point. My argument against pushing the range is that it results in heavier and more expensive cars than we really need. But if the extra range comes from better efficiency rather than a bigger battery then I guess it's all good.
Depreciation is super high in the UK as there's a ton of expensive fleet cars with steering wheels on the wrong side, with a constant feed of new vehicles and a limited second hand market, partially thanks to that steering while.
While Roverpig is worrying about his non problematic edge case I've enjoyed putting a few 1000 kms on my car with some longer journeys chucked in that mix
Our work has just introduced the Octopus Energy Salary Sacrifice scheme. Given that all of the tax, insurance, servicing, breakdown cover etc. is included, it is quite a tempting scheme.
My Wife's diesel Ibiza is far from ideal for her short commute, so potentially in the next 6 months we might look at chopping it in & getting something like the Renault 5, or perhaps something larger like a Cupra Born.
I still don't like the idea of paying monthly for a car having always bought a 2nd hand car outright, but when you take into account that it covers everything it works out quite reasonable.
In other news, my diesel Leon Estate touched 80mpg average on the way home from work on Tuesday. It was bu66ered up somewhat by a series of short dual carriageway/roundabout bits about 8 miles from home but still ended up at 76.8mpg which is pretty bonkers.
Had an Ev for 7 years and only charged at home (currently 14p kWh). Looking at a grandland as additional EV for my long journey main car which means Id have to use the charging infrastructure (we never use it for other car.) Grandland is 73kWh
Any I'm shocked how expensive it is! It's almost not worth it. Is 54p kWh normal these days?
Yes, and more, I got up to 85p on a UK trip last Summer. You'll be horrified to hear that Tesla's superchargers are the cheapest, most reliable, abundant chargers you can use. Download the app for prices at locations and times of the day.
Er I’d say £0.79 is more normal for the rapid chargers. Slight discounts available via electroverse or ovo cards.
Oh good christ I was only checking same as mine.
(7kw)
Didn't even think of that.
Oh yes, if you need regular public charging you can look forward to sub 20mpg figures
Wow I've been spoilt by running an EV on a home charger and not once in 7 years really taking notice of highway charging fees. (Mostly because it's our short run car.)
The private sector and marketing of all this stuff is total bullshit.
This would have been an absolute cherry to get behind politically and subsidies. No brainer. But then Labour have no brains.
This is going to fail big time in terms of delivering for public purpose which is what I thought running an EV was all about (as well as being cheaper.)
I also see that expensive car supplement above 40,000 makes a dent too.
But could the CCP be so keen on market penetration with short term losses because they'll be able to capture and control all that data (and maybe the OSs...?) in the long term?
You've been watching too many films.
It's the difference between the state empowering it's currency and not.
Their loss of resources is our gain ultimately in terms of product.
I know that there may be cars coming soon that will reduce demand
Maybe not. If people are holding out for longer range cars, thst may increase uptake which could increase demand.
Also if the same longer range cars are also available cheaper with smaller batteries thst would also increase demand. Customer can have a choice, shell out for a long range car, realise they never need it but like electric motoring, then perhaps long range cars will end up not selling after all.
I strongly believe everyone will prefer electric motoring once they get their head around charging. People will buy them, their friends will ask about their journeys, and it'll become normalised through word of mouth.
In other news, Swarco Evolt are shit. I went to Ruthin on Friday, stayed overnight and planned to use the slow chargers in town to fill up during my bike ride. Octopus app wouldn't work so I tried the Evolt app which also didnt work but charged me £35 every time I tried! I called the number and they told me to start the charge (via Octopus in my case) before plugging in the car and it worked, but that's the exact opposite of what it says on the unit!
However its the first time I'd properly used destination chargers for a full charge, that part worked well as I was there for 6hrs.
With the price of public charging there is no way I would of bought my EV if I was not able to home charge or was relying on public charging for anything more than topping up for my occasional long trips. Yes I can charge at home for 7c a unit but my rough maths meant it took my first year of home charging savings to offset the installation cost of the charger so it’s only now, 12 months later that I am quids in.
If you rely on public charging or you use it a lot, you can bring the cost down a fair bit by subscribing. Its still expensive, but not as bad. Comparable to diesel perhaps.
Even at 50p per kWh most EVs will be returning around 40mpg equivalent. winter months will see that closer to 30.
You say "even at 50p" but all the commercial chargers I've ever found south of the Scottish border have been 80p.
(which isn't many, admittedly, because we do almost all our our charging at home.)
I found that the ev charge price largely same or more when looking at the mpg / cost per mile. However I reason the fact the majority of my charging is at home and only resent using a public charger slightly but still very annoying. LIDL do charge points priced at the lower end however the last few only had one point with 3 cables so pretty limited availability. Using their app makes it cheaper. Having recently bought a EV, Im still getting my head around %age charge left and feeling nervous seeing less that 30 miles available when heading home.
This has dramatically changed in the last few years.
Like I said earlier I've only ever home charged so looking around currently - I just see a mess of a market doing what it does best and extract profit from people at the expense of everything else.
To make this work it needs government support - real robust investment and tax incentives (not disincentives such as the 40,000 levy.)
Without this - this is now going to be a slow painful transition.
It was much more promising 4/5 year ago so we've regressed in my opinion even if the tech and proliferation has gotten better.
The only positive is that EVs are becoming cheaper options than ICE and that is happening on some leases currently.
To make this work it needs government support - real robust investment and tax incentives (not disincentives such as the 40,000 levy.)
While I’m not a fan of subsidies I agree that disincentives should be avoided when you are trying to change behavior. The hokey-cokey of the higher VED for ‘luxury’ cars is minor but unwelcome and gives the wrong signal to folks who might be considering an EV as an alternative to a similarly-sized non-‘luxury’ ICE car.
the persistence of low taxation on fossil fuels with the stalling of the ‘fuel escalator’ is an ongoing anomaly.
and the recent ‘blink’ in the long running game of chicken between government and motor manufacturers on the 2030 cutoff for new petrol and diesel cars, while anticipatable, is unwelcome.
Things are better EV-wise than they were a few years ago, but again I agree with the idea that it’s not as exciting or enthusiastic from government as it could be.
I'm not in favour of subsidies from general taxation but I'm very much in favour of bonus-malus. Tax on the sale of ICEs to pay subsidies on EVs
I'm not in favour of subsidies from general taxation but I'm very much in favour of bonus-malus. Tax on the sale of ICEs to pay subsidies on EVs
Well we're not going to agree there because taxes don't pay for government spending at central government level -on that issue. (I seem to remember I sent you a peer-reviewed paper a while back detailing this.} Allow me for slightly being off topic there but it is a crucial difference.
But - I can assure you one of the reasons I got an EV 7 years ago was because of the grant incentive for the charger. (Now gone I believe.)
Tax can be used as an incentive or disincentive as you are pointing out. (Same as fags).
What I'd be saying is the market alone is not good enough to make this happen at the level it needs to, without government investment it will just get too expensive for wide adoption. Markets alone are not good enough working for public purpose on which energy prices are based.
All that will happen is the well off will benefit like everything else in an economy not designed around public purpose.
Subsidies/grants should exist where we have a necessity to correct damage done by leaving things to the market, and it's the public interest.
Otherwise the oil companies will just gobble everything up.
The whole EU structure was built around subsidy! A system also exits in central government without membership to pull similar leavers.
We just choose not to use it.
the stalling of the ‘fuel escalator’ is an ongoing anomaly.
It's not even an escalator - the duty has been frozen since 2011-12, so has reduced in real terms, reduced further by the 'temporary 5p cut in 2022 which is still there. It's an open goal for a government that needs to raise taxes. Raising it by inflation wouldn't have lost significant votes so oil industry pressure is the logical reason.
I know so little about all of this compared to some on here, but now I'm starting to look at it ahead of delivery it does seem there's no government local charging strategy, and it's clearly not coming any time soon.
I can live with 80p/kwh at motorway services, much like I can live with a 20% premium on fuel there - I plan not to use it and when I do, I use it as little as possible. When I'm home, then I'll charge at a cost that makes sense; I'll install solar if we think we're definitely not moving; and I'm going to look at installing a charger at work.
Those who can't charge at home or work need a fair solution to get supply at a fair price. It's so typical of everything we seem to do in this country that those who can't afford to charge at a public station are going to have no option but to. Government strategy appears to be pushing the burden to local authorities to come up with solutions, but there's no mention of price caps, only the ability to compare prices and I guess the hope that competition will keep the price down. As such a critical part of infrastructure, would this not have been much, much better to make at least a significant part of it state owned?
I realise this has probably been covered several times in the massive thread, and I imagine everybody who looks at this over the next few years will keep asking the same question. We don't seen to have a clue, do we?
I'd agree that leaving it all to the market is probably not going to produce a fair and equitable solution for all. That's what governments are for after all. But I do think the current high prices are driven by companies looking to fund expansion in order to get into a dominant position and once coverage reaches saturation point they will have to start competing on price.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there more government involvement in Scotland (through Chargeplace Scotland). Has that led to better infrastructure up here?
Plenty ChargePlace Scotland chargers but prices vary quite considerably - 36p to just over 80p, most of the faster chargers are over 50p, but it not only varies by location but also by council...
Vauxhall Grandland GS 73Kwh is very cheap on lease currently.
Nice car. Maybe 30 years since I've had a Vauxhall.
Difficult to find the true range. My partners Citroen E-C4 is terrible in the winter. Going from about 180 to 110.
Grandland has a heat pump.