After a post a couple of pages ago, we did look at some 2nd hand EVs, but ended up with a newer/posher version of what we had. All the things my better half wanted- Heated seats/Rear Camera/Rear wiper/1 foot driving (and another 30 BHP 🙂 ) at a 0% 3 year deal pretty close to that sticker price. Just could not be a***d to go car shopping as she likes her current MG4.
Sales Fella showed us how much 'negative equity' was in her current car. Just coming up 2 years old and 6k under mileage and it was still over 3k! I bet Santander (finance comp) or equivalent must have loads of these to sell as they come off leases but they are still silly money on auto trader.
Pick it up in a couple of weeks so we'll have 2 MG4s for a month or so. I intend to make good use of the old one 🙂
Yea, the VW app is pretty crap at connecting to the car. Only really use it to pre warm the car then it’s hit or miss if it connects.
Yes I got burned at Christmas waking up to an 80% charged car. I’d set it to charge to 100% on the next charge but as said, IOG splits the next charge into several sessions. I don’t really see any need to have the car limited to 80% - I do that through the octopus app, and when I’m out and need to charge I’m either going far and want a rapid charger to go past 80, or I only stop briefly and it doesn’t get a chance to go higher.
@alex is that a 0% HP deal i.e will you own the car outright after 3 years?
Also, what range do you get on your current MG4 and can it take roofbars and a towbar (for bikes not towing)
Thanks
the VW app is pretty crap at connecting to the car
The VW app is pretty crap, full stop. It will stop working soon as the car needs a 3g signal to connect and 3g is being dropped in UK. After 3 years from new they want £90 a year for the app, which I sort of understand as the mobile connection does cost them (why didn't they give it WiFi?). The pain for me with an eUp is there are things (like preheating the cabin) that you can't do from the dash, it's app or nothing.
After 3 years from new they want £90 a year for the app, which I sort of understand as the mobile connection does cost them (why didn't they give it WiFi?).
Well if they gave it wifi they couldn't charge you £90 a year.
My ID7 has WiFi - maybe that’s the plan going forward? Be a bit annoying to lose the remote connectivity when out and about though. Seems not well thought through.
The ID3 comes with WiFi
@alex is that a 0% HP deal i.e will you own the car outright after 3 years?
Also, what range do you get on your current MG4 and can it take roofbars and a towbar (for bikes not towing)
@winston - 0% PCP so we'll get an option to buy, but with the subsidy/2nd hand value of EVs, we'll likely not buy it unless things change. Our view is we want to hire a car for the least money possible and PCP at 0% is a good way to do that.
It can take a towbar but it might be a factory only fit. Not sure about roof bars. We have another car I use for bike stuff. Our standard range gets around 180-200 miles in summer and maybe 140-150 in winter.
Fellow EV drivers - Martin Lewis wrote an interesting article about EV VED you might want to google and read 😉
(bit naughty but not really different to maxxing out an ISA allowance or whatever, is it?)
Fellow EV drivers - Martin Lewis wrote an interesting article about EV VED you might want to google and read 😉
(bit naughty but not really different to maxxing out an ISA allowance or whatever, is it?)
is this the ‘renew now and avoid luxury VED for a year’ ruse?
Done. Renewed in February because it was due. Renewed in March because next March will be new car time and £450 not paid next March, while minuscule compared with car costs, will be convenient.
A nice avoidance technique.
Not just luxury EV, all EV drivers should read it.
I don't particularly want to say it out loud, feels a bit wrong as a quasi-Gov employee, hence why suggesting you should google it. Then up to you if morally it's a loophole you can use.
Doesn't feel like a loophole any more than buying a house now to avoid stamp duty or filling up your car on budget day. There's a date when things change, you don't pay the tax prior to that.
I've been running a few numbers (I like numbers) while I try to decide whether I want to make the switch from my ICE car to a newer EV. I thought I'd share them here just in case anybody else found them useful (long shot 😀 ).
For those not following (and why would you) the saga; I started seriously looking at EVs around 6 months ago, quickly decided that a Tesla Model Y looked like the best option, then Elon went all nazi on me. Now I'm finding it hard to find anything else I actually want to switch to. Today's front runner is a Renault Scenic but much of what follows applies to most options I've considered.
A lot of stuff I read/watch assumes that you only drive <10K per year whereas I drive at least 20k most years and the numbers are a bit different then.
Fuel costs - If I assume an average consumption of 3mi/kwh (bit higher in summer, bit lower in winter) then, if I can do all my charging on a cheap (7p/kwh) overnight tariff it would cost me around £500 a year in "fuel". My (petrol) ICE car averages around 40 mpg (again a bit more in summer and a bit less in winter) so at current fuel prices that's around £3,000 a year on petrol. So, straight away we have around a £2,500/year saving. Yay.
Insurance costs - I think my current ICE car is insurance group 24. Anyway, it costs me around £550 a year to insure. Switching to the scenic (ig 32) would increase that by around £350 a year. A Tesla Model Y (ig 51) for comparison would increase it by around £850 a year. So I've lost a bit of that £2,500/year fuel saving in increased insurance, but not much (and the Tesla would cost around £500/year more for insurance).
Lease vs Buy - There are lots of people arguing that it is better to lease an EV but I can't make the numbers work for my usage. If I look at the scenic in iconic trim (which I'd want for the better stereo and sunroof) the best lease deals are still coming out around £7k/year (bit more for a shorter lease of course). I can buy a second hand one (less than a year old, less than 10K) for around £35k. So it only has to last five years for that to look like the better deal. I tend to keep a car for 7 years on average. So, assuming it lasted that long then even if it is scrap at that point I'm still £14k up on the lease costs. That's assuming repair costs aren't astronomical of course, which brings me to...
Repair Costs - This is obviously a tricky one. Lots of opinions available but very few hard numbers. There is a garage over in Zagreb of all places ( https://evclinic.eu/category/ev/) that seems to have compiled some figures on costs and reliability for various EVs. Nothing on the Scenic yet as it is too new, but looking at the Megane (same motors etc I think) they reckon a major service or replacement of a motor (which is much more likely than a battery failure by the way) could be required on average every 40,000 miles and Renault charge around £5.5k for a new motor. By comparison a Tesla Model Y motor should last on average 155,000 miles and only costs around £2k for a new motor. That £500/year saving on insurance isn't looking so good now😀
TLDR: By looking at different numbers you can make various options (ICE or different EVs) look more or less attractive but a few expensive repairs can easily change the numbers quite significantly. So, unless you've got a crystal ball it will always be a bit f a leap of faith.
Q for POLESTAR 2 drivers
I've rented one in Spain for 5 days, only ever briefly sat in one when considering purchase, is it a simple case of press the brake pedal, put in gear and go (assuming key is on your person)? or do I have to put the key somewhere etc?
Is there anything else I need to know /worth knowing?
Cheers
As you say press the brake pedal hard pull back on the gear selector to put in drive or hard push forward for reverse
When you stop press the Park button next to the gear selector and you are done nothing to turn off
Key can be anywhere in the car
Kick under the back bumper to open the boot but you need to have the key on you to do it otherwise use the boot switch
they reckon a major service or replacement of a motor (which is much more likely than a battery failure by the way) could be required on average every 40,000 miles and Renault charge around £5.5k for a new motor.
Blimey! I thought motors would last 'for ever'.
That's quite a chunk to add to the annual running cost [for some manufacturers] and definitely worth bearing in mind especially if buying used. 😬
that seems to have compiled some figures on costs and reliability for various EVs. Nothing on the Scenic yet as it is too new, but looking at the Megane (same motors etc I think) they reckon a major service or replacement of a motor (which is much more likely than a battery failure by the way) could be required on average every 40,000 miles and Renault charge around £5.5k for a new motor. By comparison a Tesla Model Y motor should last on average 155,000 miles and only costs around £2k for a new motor. That £500/year saving on insurance isn't looking so good now😀
Our last EV did 88k miles before we sold it. It needed nothing except a suspension boot and tyres. Yes it was serviced by BMW, but nothing was replaced, not even the brakes. certainly not a motor.
Our current EV has done 25k miles and has needed only tyres.
Yes, that "Average Reported EV Motor Failure" rate of 60,000Km for the Megane was a bit of a shock, but I've not been able to work out how they calculated that number so I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Of course, even if it were a true "population average" lots of owners will still report no problems. The fact that they refer to it as "reported" makes me wonder whether it might just be the average age of the motors that have been brought to them having failed, which is very different to the average for all cars as they presumably only see the ones that have failed and there aren't many Meganes on the road that have done long miles yet. So it's concerning that customers are coming to them with failed motors that have only done 60,000Km on average but without knowing what percentage of the cars sold had problems with the motor it's hard to read too much into that one number. I only really reported it as it shows how being unlucky can easily throw all those careful calculations out the window.
I think those numbers are hokey, for several reasons, but principally because I work in a building with a few hundred engineers (electrical, mechanical and other types) most of whom drive EV's , with plenty more kms on them than 60, 000, and I do not recall engine failure being discussed at lunch full stop.
It's nonsense click bait.
Our current EV has done 25k miles and has needed only tyres.
And is this from new or do you buy used - frankly, ANY car should do 60k/5 years without anything major happening.
The EV vs Hybrid battery cost is another eye opener. Again, it's not really something I'd thought about.
My feeling ATM is that a new EV is a good option if the numbers work for you and you can afford it - but buying used is potentially more risky than an ICE although obvs there's no guarantees an ICE won't go pop.
To be fair, it's not click bait at all, it's buried in a Google Doc where they are reporting the data on repairs that they make. As is often the way with numbers it might not mean what you might initially think it means though i.e. they are probably not saying that Megane motors fail after 60,000Km on average. It may just be that the ones that do fail (which might be a tiny percentage of the cars) tend to fail at that age.
Johnathan Porterfield (sp?) on Youtube does talk about a motor failure on his Zoe and goes as far as saying that he wouldn't recommend buying a high mileage one for that reason. Main issue being the the failure was down to a cheap bearing but Renault would only supply a whole new motor!
The problem is that it is things like this (e.g. whether the manufacturer will supply a part, what it costs, whether there are alternative suppliers etc) that can totally change the lifetime cost of a car, but these are points that are hardly ever explored by "motoring journalists".
Both of our EVs were used when we bought them.
TLDR: By looking at different numbers you can make various options (ICE or different EVs) look more or less attractive but a few expensive repairs can easily change the numbers quite significantly. So, unless you've got a crystal ball it will always be a bit f a leap of faith.
You can of course pay for an extended warranty. I think my e_tron warranty is something like £400 per year. Same(ish) as the A6 before it.
We are on our 3rd ev and the only unexpected items I've had to pay for are 12v batteries on the Zoe and the Kona at shorter intervals than I would expect for an ICE car.
Oh and a broken spring on the Zoe thanks to Mrs OTS's reckless disregard for potholes.
Early Meganes had a software glitch that lunched the air con pump on cars without a heat pump - they should all be fixed with a software update now. Apart from that I wasn't aware of anything so had a look at the usual French reliability site. Motors are either orange or red depending on model so not good. The elephant in the room on all of the Megane models is the electronics - pretty typical EV then.
https://www.fiches-auto.fr/fiabilite-renault/fiabilite-701-pannes-renault-megane-e-tech.php
If you want to compare with other brands happy clicking on this list:
You can repair motors. They only have a couple of bearings in them and they can be replaced using the same techniques and equipment as transmission refurbishment. There's a video on YouTube of a transmission place doing it and despite not being EV specialists they manage fine.
I've been running a few numbers (I like numbers) while I try to decide whether I want to make the switch from my ICE car to a newer EV. I thought I'd share them here just in case anybody else found them useful (long shot 😀 ).
A couple of thoughts having recently bought a used e-niro.
1. Insurance was a pleasant surprise, being only about £50 per year more than our old c-max.
2. We were attracted to Kia in part because of the 7 year transferable warranty. So we still have 3.5 years to cover anything major failing prematurely.
3. I have heard stories about motor bearings failing early on some e-niros but these were replaced under warranty.
4. Overall we're very pleased with our decision. It's quiet, comfortable, and costs less than £5 to fully charge.
that reminds me, i need to clean up and flg my Niro roof bars 😉
It may just be that the ones that do fail (which might be a tiny percentage of the cars) tend to fail at that age.
I suspect it's only the ones that they have had into their workshops (or maybe a few other local ones that they are in contact with).
Saying that. you've got to wonder why someone who appears to be an independent workshop would be repairing motors that are still within the manufacturers warranty. Unless these are commercial customers (don't always get the same warranty terms) or are people who've otherwise abused/modified the cars?
Just out of interest, when you had an EV charge point installed at home, did you notify your home insurance company?
I'm having to put a bit more thought into this now as I only have a few months left on the current company car before it goes back. Currently have 3 cars of interest, the Cupra Born 77Kwh, Renault Scenic, and the Polestar 2 single motor. None appeal to me massively, but the best of what I need. I hate that most EV's with a big range are huge SUV's. A few times a month I will do 300 miles+ in a day. I'd rather not sit in services for an hour waiting to top up.
Joined a Cupra group on FB. Pretty much every post is swearing on the infotainment. Scenic is nice, but again, too big for me really. Polestar is the classy option, but seem hard to find.
A few times a month I will do 300 miles+ in a day. I'd rather not sit in services for an hour waiting to top up
You drive more than 300 miles without a break?
My car does about 230 miles at motorway speed, which is plenty far enough for me. It'll charge back up to 80% in 45 minutes, newer models will be quicker.
Just out of interest, when you had an EV charge point installed at home, did you notify your home insurance company?
No. And based on the fact that whether I have one is not a question I've ever been asked when submitting a quote, I'm not sure they care?
Saying that. you've got to wonder why someone who appears to be an independent workshop would be repairing motors that are still within the manufacturers warranty.
Maybe because manufacturers/dealers are not yet geared up for 'specialist' EV repairs so use an authorised specialist?
It's not unheard of.
A few times a month I will do 300 miles+ in a day. I'd rather not sit in services for an hour waiting to top up.
As others will say, why do you need to top up for an hour.
1/ If you're doing 300 miles in a day you're presumably going somewhere, like a customer. Not always but a lot have charge points themselves, we do - so you can put some in while you are meeting them.
2/ If not chances are you can find one nearby anyway
3/ If not, then if you get a decent ranged car then you don't need to refill. Being a co car and hence a new model you can probably stuff another 15-20kWh in in a few minutes (googled the Cupra above, max speed is 170kW on DC, so you can put 20kWh in in under 10 mins. That's the aim - spend as little on external charging and get home with a few miles to spare so you can charge at home for buttons. Might view differently if you are expensing your down route charging costs.
Range anxiety was my fear. Practically, has never been an issue, I've only ever got down to sub 30 mile range deliberately, and I've only had to actively wait while charging once in 5 months (visiting daughter at Uni, we had to go to the retail park to plug in for 15 mins or so and so wandered around Currys for 10 mins while waiting. Any other time we had stuff to do and could charge while doing it)
Okay, fair points regarding charging times etc. I tend not to stop, other than at a customer site or for a quick toilet stop. Home charging not an issue.
"A few times a month I will do 300 miles+ in a day. I'd rather not sit in services for an hour waiting to top up"
The only way you'd be sitting for an hour is for a complete 0-100% charge of the battery, which for lets say a 250 mile range car you are driving 500 miles.
The reality most of the time is more of a quick top-up. Lets say you're doing a 350 miles trip in a 250 mile range car. That's 100 miles range to add which is 100/250 = 40% charge. Most modern cars could add that in about 20 mins ish.
A typical pee and coffee stop on the motorway is about 20 mins ish. Bear in mind that the car is charging for the whole time you're stopped, i.e. including walking across the carpark to the services, in the look, grabbing a takeaway coffee, walking back to the car.
And then you're free to just drive off, whereas those in ICE cars who need to refuel do all of that service station stuff, and then afterwards have to stop again at the petrol station before leaving.
So - in the real world, this kind of top-up charge is actually QUICKER than in an ICE.
Currently have 3 cars of interest, the Cupra Born 77Kwh, Renault Scenic, and the Polestar 2 single motor. None appeal to me massively,
Interesting, I've been looking at the same three with similar views too. Personally, I'm leaning towards the scenic as the polestar doesn't have seem to have a proper hatchback (not so good with dogs) and the Cupra doesn't have a heatpump as standard (and the infotainment seems to be a right pain).
I also think that Scenic is too big for what I need (and I don't like the pale interior on the top spec model) but the (lack of) range on anything smaller bothers me too. Compounded in my case by the fact that I tend to keep cars around 6-7 years on average so have half an eye on what a 250 mile range might look like in 5 years time when everything will presumably go 500 miles between charges.
I've worked out that for the car not to be the limiting factor I would "need" a real world 200 mile (motorway/dual-carriageway) range in winter (so I could do my 500 mile Christmas journey with two stops). Anything more is probably overkill, but even that probably requires a WLTP range of at least 350 miles.
It's not really an EV thing but I do find that lots of modern cars have so many features that can go wrong in annoying ways that it's hard to justify spending so much money on them. I've been hanging out on the Scenic facebook groups and while there are lots of happy owners you hear about things (like really harsh phantom braking) that just make you think "ugh".
No. And based on the fact that whether I have one is not a question I've ever been asked when submitting a quote, I'm not sure they care?
I take your point but if I Google it the AI generated response is:
”In the UK, it's highly recommended to notify your insurer about installing or having EV charge points, as failure to do so could lead to a claim being declined due to non-disclosure of an increased risk”
Maybe because manufacturers/dealers are not yet geared up for 'specialist' EV repairs so use an authorised specialist?
It's not unheard of.
Good point, especially in markets with lower market share or representation.
I take your point but if I Google it the AI generated response is:
”In the UK, it's highly recommended to notify your insurer about installing or having EV charge points, as failure to do so could lead to a claim being declined due to non-disclosure of an increased risk”
Just asked Admiral, they said:
Please be informed that there is no need to declare that you have EV charger on your home.
I tend not to stop, other than at a customer site or for a quick toilet stop. Home charging not an issue.
Surely you can modify your behaviour to include a 15 minute break on your trip? I mean, reducing emissions is important, and what's a couple of 15 minute stops a month in the grand scheme of things? It's a pretty small sacrifice for a pretty big reduction in carbon emissions.
Had my Audi EV for just over a year. I also do a once monthly 320 mile round trip, mainly motorway (Liverpool to Milton Keynes). As the above posters have said, a 20/30 minute total stop time gives me plenty to get home with no range anxiety. On this route the motorway services are pretty good for EV charging with a number of different options.
However, I would add that some trips can be a bit of a pain. I drove from Liverpool to the Lakes and back on Sunday. My logic was I would stop off at Charnock Richards on the way back and top up...only 2 working chargers both in use. I waited 30 minutes but neither became available. OK I thought, I drive past the M62 services and I still have 30% charge....4 charging devices all occupied. The Tesla chargers at this location apparently only work with Tesla and they come with the worlds shortest cable....so if I could have used one I would have taken up two bays. Anyway, ended up having to find a McDonalds near to the motorway where I could top up.
Its rare that I run into these problems, but in my opinion there's still work to do to take the faff out of long journeys.
I agree with w00dster, but would add that for most journeys that stress can be allayed with apps like Electroverse that 'should' give up to date availability, and also having a willing and pro-active co-pilot doing the checking whilst we drive!
I would stop off at Charnock Richards on the way back and top up...only 2 working chargers both in use.
That's your problem. Why stop at Charnock Richard with 2 chargers when there's a bank of 8 just off J27 and another bank of 8 just off J28? 15 at a public Tesla at Preston too. You drive past hundreds of chargers. I mean it's not particularly onerous to plan, but you do have to have a look if your car doesn't do it for you. I just let the car tell me where to stop.
On that point, how good is Google maps (as part of google automotive) at telling you which chargers are working/free ?
I don't know tbh. I know there is good data out there and not every provider has it. Last year my Hyundai said one thing Zap Map said something wildly different. The car was right. Clearly Hyundai are just using a data feed from the operator, which suggests it's a premium feed they're paying for, and free Zap Map is not.
Did my first fast charging last weekend, 400 ish mile round trip. arrived with 20% battery left, charged to 80% at an Instavolt at a Sainsburys Local down the road from the hotel and had my first taste of 165kw DC charging which is awesome and had me at 80% in less than 25 mins.
Having pootled around over the weekend I was never going to get home on the charge I had left. The car suggested a stop towards the end of the drive but as the Nav shows chargers and their availability I picked one earlier on the route and we stopped for a quick sandwich. Topped up back to 80% in less than the time it took to eat said sandwich and had more than enough juice left when I got home.
Overall very happy with how it went, 'on the road' leccy is pretty pricey (spent £65!) but considering it's a tiny cost at home and free at work, it's hardly an issue once in a while.
I'm hopefully going to get a test drive in one of these over the next couple of days.
Unfortunately I don't think it's got a decent enough range for us but it's the most interesting EV I've seen since the i3.
My current ID3 is up for replacing at the end of the summer and it's very practical and comfortable. It does everything it's supposed to, I just find it so boring.
I saw one of those in yellow at the Renault dealer the other week. Went in to look at the more practical Scenic but was very tempted to just order one on the spot.
Annoying that you can't specify the upgraded (HK) audio in the UK as you can in the rest of Europe though and then, as you say, there is the issue of the range.
The problem with range is that it is linked to infrastructure and they are both changing all the time. Few of us actually drive more than (say) 150 miles without taking a break. So, if there were lots of chargers everywhere so you could plug in whenever you stopped, a 250 mile WLTP range would probably be fine and you could argue that there would be no point having a heavier and more expensive battery. But we are not there yet and it's not clear that we are going to get there.
I can see two scenarios for the mass adoption of EVs (if that is actually going to happen):
1. Charging becomes ubiquitous and the mindset of drivers changes to one where you just plug in whenever you are not using the car. Similar to the way phones evolved. I remember when the battery life (measured in weeks) was a selling point for a mobile phone. Now we just want something that will last for the longest spell that we we would use a phone for and just plug it in (or put it on a charging pad) when we are not using it. If that's the future for EVs then I can see the focus switching to cheaper/lighter cars with "just big enough" batteries.
2. Battery technology improves to the point where charging on the road stops being an issue as the car can go for pretty much a whole day (say 500 miles) on a single charge and charging is just something you do on your "home charger" (whether that is actually at your home or just the one you use most often).
I think option 1 is the better option for the planet but the fact that option 2 is still a possibility makes option 1 less likely. Would you invest millions in setting up a charging hub that might become obsolete because hardly anybody is charging away from home?
I don't really think that any of this matters if you are happy to pay the premium to lease a car for a couple of years. A Renault 5 will be fun for a couple of years, no doubt about that. But if you are looking to buy a car that you would keep for much longer it gets much harder to accept that range I think.
A Renault 5 will be fun for a couple of years, no doubt about that. But if you are looking to buy a car that you would keep for much longer it gets much harder to accept that range I think.
It’s not to buy (although it would be tempting to buy one), it will be ordered on my work scheme and kept for 2 years.
Most of our journeys the range is absolutely fine but occasionally we “need” to go to Edinburgh and back visiting family and being able to do that without charging at the moment is great. It’s 160 motorway miles return so would probably be right on limit of the R5. Our iD3 does it comfortably.
The majority of our actual long journeys are done in a campervan and we do have another car. But it seems a bit silly to compromise on range just because I think it looks fun 🤔
Few of us actually drive more than (say) 150 miles without taking a break.
Range just isn't the problem people think. As I've said before, I went to Scotland in my slow charging short range car, charging about every 2 hours 15% ish to 80% ish. It took 14.5hrs, having done an extra stop not to arrive empty, it might've taken 13.5 hours in an ICE because I was just casually driving, eating, peeing, resting and so on. You can easily deal with this. And that Renault has way more range than mine and charges twice as fast. And there are way more chargers now than there was even a year ago.
Have a look on ABRP - if you select a long trip such as Cardiff to Mallaig, 537 miles, it says 1h44 of charging if you drive a Renault 5 in 4 stops for a total time of 10h37. I'd be fine with that. If you choose a long range car like a VW iD7 the total time goes down to 9h14. So you could save 90 mins on that long trip in theory, but bear in mind it'd cost you £26,000!
I've heard similar from various friends and neighbours with EVs @molgrips i.e. you learn to live with whatever range you have and it isn't that big a deal. But range us still right near the top of the list of issues for people (like me) thinking of making the switch to an EV. If we want to get the mass of drivers to adopt EVs then we either have to convince them that they don't actually need a car than can go 300 miles between refuelling stops or the market needs to provide cars that can at a price they can afford. I'm not sure which of those it will be though and I reckon there is still a decent chance that it is neither and people continue driving ICE cars for longer than many would want.
I like to think that I'm fairly logical and open to arguments, but I've still talked myself into thinking that any car with a WLTP range much below 350 miles is a purchase I'd regret in a few years (when that becomes the minimum for new cars). So, I find myself looking at cars that are bigger (and more expensive) than I actually want, which probably explains why I haven't actually bought anything yet.
My logic goes something like this (and feel free to pick holes in it):
My edge case is a 500 mile drive at Christmas. Any EV is probably going to require me to change my habits on that drive. For example, I currently tend to stop in the middle of nowhere to walk the dogs for half an hour and then refuel a bit further down the road. With an EV I'd need to combine the two, but I can live with that. I have (once) done the drive with a single stop, but that was extreme and two stops is more usual. So, an EV that can do 200 miles on a full charge and then 150 miles on 80% (after the recharge) then another 150 miles to complete the journey should work. So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.
500 miles in a single day is far more than the vast majority of people will do every year. Sure, if you're not prepared to stop a bit more, that's going to be an issue for you, you'll either have to pay more for a top of the range car, or stick with ICE.
OTOH if you're prepared to modify your habits a little more, you can buy a significantly cheaper car from a wider range of options. Up to you.
So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.
My car, Kia EV6 single motor with a 77kwh battery has a quoted WLTP range of 319 miles. In summer, I can, without compromising my driving experience, get 300 real world miles. In winter, again without sacrificing normal heating etc It’ll do absolute worst case real world 250-ish.
Previous car, Genesis GV60, same platform, same numbers.
The gap between WLTP and real world range is not, in my experience, always as wide as you imagine.
…and none of that really matters because it charges quickly enough anyway.
My car, Kia EV6 single motor with a 77kwh battery has a quoted WLTP range of 319 miles. In summer, I can, without compromising my driving experience, get 300 real world miles. In winter, again without sacrificing normal heating etc It’ll do absolute worst case real world 250-ish.
Does your EV6 have a heat pump? They seem to be quite a rare optional extra.
My edge case is a 500 mile drive at Christmas
To me that sounds like the person who 'has' to buy a 7 seater mpv minivan for their daily commute because once year you 'might' go on a lads MTB holiday and they all prefer to have their bikes inside the car. Or you 'have' to buy a 6 bedroom house because once a year your in-laws visits and sometimes bring great aunt Maud....and your FiL's snoring is so bad your MiL prefers her own room and your son gets surly if he has to give up his room for the night.
Efficiency is obviously good but throwing in and carrying around even more heavy batteries (at extra cost to buy, less efficiency to run and extra environmental damage to manufacture and dispose of) so that a once a year trip can be done without changing your habits is daft.
For context we had guests of our holiday let come up and stay from Norfolk (600 miles each way) in a VW id3. 4 in the car and did it in one day each way. Apparently the sky didn't fall down.
No heat pump. The GV60 had one as standard but only really noticed the difference on long drives.
Day to day the difference is negligible.
Use the heated seats / wheel for the first ten minutes of a cold drive and the car is plenty hot after that.
have to pay more for a top of the range car
And even then it seems I have to live with a car that is much bigger than I want for 360 days of the year just to get the range I want on those other few days.
OTOH if you're prepared to modify your habits a little more, you can buy a significantly cheaper car from a wider range of options. Up to you.
Well when you put it like that 😀
The other option is, of course, just to wait a few more years when small cars with 400 mile ranges will probably be the norm.
I have a varmepump in mine, I'm getting a range of about 380km in a Norwegian winter
No heat pump. The GV60 had one as standard but only really noticed the difference on long drives.
Day to day the difference is negligible.
Interesting. Thanks. Living in the north east of Scotland I've been working on the theory that a heat pump is an absolute must, but relaxing that does bring a few more options into the equation.
The heat pump is, for me, a “nice to have” but I wouldn’t spunk a grand of my own money to option one.
The extreme conditions in the chilly bit of North Lanarkshire just don’t warrant it.
To me that sounds like the person who 'has' to buy a 7 seater mpv minivan for their daily commute because once year you 'might' go on a lads MTB holiday
I get what you are saying and it's a fair point. The problem is that I am looking to move from a car that can do that journey so spending a fair amount of cash on something that can't still seems like a backwards step.
In over 40 years of driving, whenever I have looked to replace a car I have always just looked for something that does all the things I like about the current car and fixes/improves a few things I don't like. This is the first time I've had to look at replacing a car with one that would actually be worse at some things.
You can lead a pig to a jewellery shop but it really needs to try the pearls on for itself.
…or something.
Never was any good with proverbs. 😁
we either have to convince them that they don't actually need a car than can go 300 miles between refuelling stops
We're trying 🙂
So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.
No, I don't think so. My car does 200 miles in summer and 175 in winter.
There are a few issues here. When you search for 'real world winter range' you get loads of American content where people are looking at -35C and snow on the road. There are a few things that affect the range in winter:
1. Ambient temperature affecting battery temperature
2. The air is colder and hence denser
3. Rain on the road and in the air also affects efficiency, but this is the same in winter as summer and also the same for ICEs
4. The energy cost of the heating
There's not much you can do about most of those, but they aren't dramatic. The rain on the road seems to be the biggest issue. Also lots of cars have battery heaters but these tend only to be for extreme cold to protect the battery not optimise efficiency.
BUT
There is a huge difference between short trips in winter and long ones. When you are on a motorway, for example, you're drawing more current, which heats the battery itself. My Leaf had a noddy on-dash temperature display, and you could get it to move quite a bit with three or four hard accelerations. I haven't tried this with an OBD2 on my current car but perhaps I will next winter. In any case, we scored 5.0 on our trip to Scotland which is above our long term average. We were 4-up with luggage, it was only about 14C and it rained very heavily for part of it, so I was surprised to do that well. I suspect the fact it was a long fast trip helped.
Also, the energy cost of heating in the UK is pretty small with a heat pump, once you are up and running. Even in winter it's about 5% of the total energy usage of the car. Turning it off adds ten miles at most, usually 5 or 6. But to get up to temperature, it draws much more power and if you are using less power to drive i.e. you're driving around town, that can be 30-40% of the total. So when people say their range goes down by a third, you need to know if they are doing short trips around town or long motorway ones. I suspect the former as if my old-tech car only loses just over 10% range, I can't see how a more modern one does far worse unless the above factors are in play.
And of course, if you can charge at home, then having your range slashed in winter for urban driving doesn't matter much unless you are a taxi driver or something,
The other option is, of course, just to wait a few more years when small cars with 400 mile ranges will probably be the norm.
You must have a better crystal ball than me then. Smaller/cheaper cars are tending towards same/lower ranges but (slightly) faster charging. It's *very* expensive to add battery capacity right now, and they are heavy. Quickly makes your small car either compromised on space, stupid tall or into a medium sized car. Bigger/more expensive cars seem to be going either 800v or rapid charging. Capacity is going up, but only slightly. (This is across the entire global market. There are local variations.)
So i wouldn't count on a golf size car ever having a 400 mile range, not with current and upcoming tech anyway.
This is the first time I've had to look at replacing a car with one that would actually be worse at some things.
The way i look at it is that for the 360 days of the year you'll save a fortune on fuel, my current hybrid saves me about 2/3rds on my fuel cost compared to the last diesel i had, if i run exclusively on electric, charging at home or relatively low cost at work. On long journeys it costs about the same as the diesel did.
Then for the 5 days you need to drive 500 miles (then 500 more), it takes a bit longer and might be slightly compromised. Think how many hours of work you'd have had to do to pay for the extra fuel...
And FWIW, if you get the car preconditioned while finishing off your charge, so battery and cabin are at perfect temp before you even leave, you can get quite close to claimed range. Even when it's -10. I've been getting high 70s all winter on mine (between 77-80) driving drastically faster than WLTP. It's motorway all the way to work pretty much. I don't have battery conditioning either. I just have to take whatever temp it's at when i get to it (do have cabin preheating though). Trying to get it to finish charging as i leave for work does give me an extra 4-5 km though. Rated electric range (WLTP) is 92 km
So that would require a real-world range (in winter) of at least 220 miles I think, which seems to translate to a WLTP range around the 350 mile range.
I got 235 miles range out of my e-niro on a long motorway trip, compared with the official range of 280 odd. I doubt it would go below 200 even in the depths of winter. I would add that I'm saving over £1k per year in fuel.
When you search for 'real world winter range' you get loads of American content
Yes, fair point. I noticed that ev-database defines winter highway range as doing a steady 70mph at -10C, which is cold even for Scotland 😀
You must have a better crystal ball than me then.
No, you are right, there is a lot of guesswork and my guess could be way off. There are two things happening at once; improvement in battery chemistry (plus lower price per kwh) and improvements in charging infrastructure. Both are good but they are kind of in competition. If batteries get so good/cheap that hardly anybody charges on the road then we don't need so many chargers. But if charging improves enough then who would pay for extra battery that they don't need.
Maybe you are right and small cars will always be sub 300 mile range even when solid state technology makes a 500 mile range small car a possibility. I just don't know.
You can lead a pig to a jewellery shop but it really needs to try the pearls on for itself.
Oink 😀
It does demonstrate the scale of the challenge though. I'm pretty keen on EVs really but still find it hard to commit to switching. Imaging how hard it is going to be to convince the EV-haters who think it is all a big conspiracy anyway.
I just don't know.
Neither do i, and it's my job.
This is the first time I've had to look at replacing a car with one that would actually be worse at some things.
My problem is that Roofboxes, Bike racks, stuff on the roof all massively kill the range, especially at motorway speeds. 200-250 real world miles is fine but not if it translates into half that with two kayaks on the roof. No I don't drive around with kayaks on the roof all the time but when I've spent 30k on a car I want it to do as much as my current 15k car can do. They can't tow either - another negative.
I'm a massive EV fan - I've had a Leaf for ages, its been brilliant for local journeys and I'd love a 'proper EV' as my main car but i can't bring myself to push the button. I think I'll reluctantly but inevitably buy another hybrid to replace my aging Toyota.
Ah, I forgot about the roofbox. That 500 mile Christmas trip usually has one of those on the car too. Still, if I talk myself up to a bigger car than I want just to get the range maybe I won't need the roofbox 😀
I'm beginning to think that, instead of spaffing £30k on something that might still not be able to do everything, I could just spend £20K on something that could handle the day-to-day stuff and accept that longer journeys will take longer. If all else fails I can spend some of the £10K I've saved on renting an ICE car.
They can't tow either - another negative.
Many can, some have lower limits but a 1200kg limit is common and there are a fair few that can do 1600kg.
As for roof boxes - replace that with one of those towbar mounted boxes.
Many can, some have lower limits but a 1200kg limit is common and there are a fair few that can do 1600kg.
Try pulling into a charging bay with a 1600kg trailer and let me know how it goes…you’ll probably have to remove the trailer to even get most EVs into a charging position even if there was all the space in the world as the cables are so short on most fast chargers. Imagine doing that every 150 miles which is what your range would be down to.
I've had this same discussion on this thread before. Towing any distance + EV is just looking like a rubbish combo.
Deal breakers for me are
- Range impact both in terms of journey time but also actually finding suitable chargers in charger desert zones.
- An almost complete absence of pull through charging.
I would love an EV and it would be perfect for about 80-90% of my driving. The problem is the remaining 10-20% would be a complete pain in the arse. Not mild inconvenience but a proper disruptive and time wasting headache. Since that minority use comes out of my very limited leisure time it makes it a completely unacceptable compromise for me.
Last car swap I actually contemplated an EV for the 80% and keeping the old SMax as a tow/bike car but lack of drive space and the (then) spike in EV insurance premiums stopped that in its tracks. We tried to find a PHEV but all the hybrid Skoda estates needed a factory fit towing pack and couldn't find a second hand one. The EV plus older tow car may be the next move if we are still towing regularly in 3 years.
Try pulling into a charging bay with a 1600kg trailer and let me know how it goes
Clearly there are several issues with EV towing, but the cars can tow. There's a FB group for EV caravanners, most people only drive short distances to local spots.
Imagine doing that every 150 miles
I intend to as soon as I can afford an EV towcar. Yes, it'll be a pain, but paying £1.40 to drive 50 miles the rest of the time is a much bigger pain, not to mention spraying pollution everywhere you go. I'm beginning to understand how vegans feel.
actually finding suitable chargers in charger desert zones.
So for me the charging desert is Mid Wales. Thing is, I would be able to drive across that desert on a full charge, even with a caravan, because it's only about 60 miles across. Driving up the A470 to North Wales is a problem, for sure, but I don't have to go that way, I can go up the A49 and across on the A5 or even use the A55 if needed. In most cases I am on the motorway network so it's a case of drive to the caravan/HGV spot at the services, unhitch, charge up and then come back. That wouldn't take that long, really. Yes, a bit of a pain, but like I say the other 49 weeks of the year I really want to be driving electric so I'll put up with it. A longer trip on the continent would be more of a pain.
I guess, when you are thinking of switching cars, it is natural to look at your edge-cases and be concerned that the car you are about to spend a fair bit of cash on can't actually do what your current car can. For me that is the occasional long trip and for @winston and @garage-dweller it is towing. Of course, you also need to look at the advantages you may get the other 90% of the time, but they are a bit harder to quantify.
There is the cost argument. I've run the numbers and for my 20k miles per year I could currently save around £2,500 a year in fuel costs if I were able to do most of my charging on a cheap (7p) overnight tariff. Sounds good, but there are at least two problems with that. First, a lot of my petrol cost is tax and the government will need to get that back off me somehow. Maybe they will lump it all onto VED, but some way of charging per mile travelled does make sense. So, the significant cost savings are probably only temporary. Then there is the fact that a new(ish) car is probably going to depreciate by far more than £2,500 per year. So, on a pure cost argument, keeping my current car running a bit longer is probably the best of all worlds.
There is the environmental argument as well. Instinctively I find it hard to believe that the problems caused by over-consumption can be mitigated by buying more stuff. Again, keeping my old car running just feels as though it should be better for the environment. I accept that on a pure CO2 basis that probably isn't the case. The CO2 I "save" with an EV at 20k miles a year is big enough to pay back the CO2-cost of building that new EV fairly quickly. But there is all the other stuff that goes into making a car and the question of how much of my current car and any new EV would actually be recycled (as opposed to what theoretically could be recycled). I think that overall I have just about convinced myself that there probably is a net environmental benefit to me selling my old ICE car and buying a newer EV, but how much of that is just me wanting to justify buying something shiny is hard to tell.
If anyone is brave enough to go down the EV van route for local use of say 80-90 mile range we have some silly priced Mercedes Vitos and Sprinters in stock at present. 72 plate Sprinter L2H2 example with less than 11,000 miles on it. £11250 + VAT.
I have been tempted to get one myself and see how it would go as a camper. At least you would be able to have a coffee & dinner etc whilst you charged to do the next leg.
We are selling them to companies who they are now starting to stack up for. Low mileage, local driving. Wanted to go electric but the new price of £40/50/60k scared them off. But now they are £10-15k they can take a punt and see how it works whilst making fuel savings too. We dont get many issues with them but i must admit when there is an issue it takes a while to sort as the network of dealerships is still playing catch up with the technology. They cant take a guess, they have to follow the manufacturers process to the letter which can result in delays.
I live within 50 miles of the lake district and when i had my last camper that was my main destination when i could avoid the masses. I think it would work for me as a camper.....
but how much of that is just me wanting to justify buying something shiny is hard to tell.
Shiny you say?
Had a little test drive and I like it. The range thing is niggling but I spend 90% of the time driving it back and forward on the same road, 60 miles a day with very cheap charging at both ends.
If I decide to take it on a longer journey I can stop & charge, it will be rare.
In a few years the Golf GTI will need replacing and that’s the time I’ll look for something a bit bigger that can go further.
The R5 seems like the perfect second car at the moment, it’s a nice place to sit, it’s not fast but it’s quick enough, rides nicely, feels light compared to the lumbering tank that my ID3 is.
A bit like BMW did with the i3, I think they’ve made something interesting that stands out from everything else out there.
We are selling them to companies who they are now starting to stack up for.
Stacking up didn't work out two well for this EV van owner
The owners of a small family-run business say they have been left £40,000 out of pocket after their van became trapped in a mechanical stacked car park in central London more than two years ago.