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I’m also waiting to see what they do regarding the online connectivity costs (i.e. having the 4G SIM in it), there’s no charge for the first 3 years but the launch edition cars (like mine) have now reached 3 years old but Polestar still haven’t announced if they’ll start charging monthly for it (I expect they will, it’s fair enough really) and if so what that charge will be (it best not be over £15/month…)
My ex pays about £40-50 a years for her (on a volvo) but that's got the lowest level of connectivity, mine should be about 120-140 a year (i don't pay), but i've got the full deal, live maps, spotify, android auto and can schedule updates and control various bits of the car, remote locking, climate etc.
The connectivity for my Leaf is £2.99 for live traffic routing etc – ok – but £1.99 just to allow me to find out where it is and turn on the aircon remotely. Doesn’t seem like quite such good value.
Interesting, as your is a 18/68 plate I think isn't it?
Mine's a 68 plate, and that was the last year the nissan connect app was free to users..
After then it was free for 3 years, THEN the charge was introduced (to much uproar from the LEAF community!).
So, my 68 plate is free, and I can remotely set air con/heat, monitor charge etc...
DrP
Do you guys like your Leafs?, I'm thinking of sending my ID3 back and buying cash out right. I can get a newish leaf at £10-15k, maybe an e-2008 if I can find one cheap enough.
yeah, i love mine!
My first EV, but it's a dream to drive, rapid enough off the line (110kW motor), and feels like a 'normal car' inside.
I'm not adverse to a screen, but it has actually buttons to control bits and bobs which is important to me.
Downsides - 40kWh battery equals about 100miles of motorway driving, but about 140 of slower road driving. This suits me fine, but may not suit most.
Basically, it's a nice place to be, and drives really nicely. The Acenta spec is one down from teh bottom and has adaptive cruise control, comfy seats, and all I'd ask for...
DrP
Interesting, as your is a 18/68 plate I think isn’t it?
69.
Do you guys like your Leafs?
As a car yes, overall, but it has its weirdness. Nice and plush interior for the price (but perhaps not as nice as an iD3) but the ride is a bit sort of choppy at times (although generally good); handling and power are good. Satnav, whilst a bit ropey, is quiet and compliant, as are the warnings/beeps etc.
I wouldn't get one unless it were cheap though, because of the ChaDeMO connector (how do you capitalise that, officially?) and concerns over battery life due to the lack of battery cooling. On your budget I would go for an Ioniq EV or a Kona and put up with the beeps and bongs and the more plasticky interior.
Only real reason to go Leaf for me is their low cost.
What's the real world range of the original ioniq? on autotrader there looks to be 38.3kw and 28kw
What’s the real world range of the original ioniq? on autotrader there looks to be 38.3kw and 28kw
I had a 38 and the real world range was on par with the WTLP generally. A bit less on motorway, actually more on slower roads. I would get about 170 miles on motorway, give or take, and around 200 on suburban roads. I never measured it all the way but the displayed %ages were relatively consistent until the bottom end when the remaining range actually increased so the one time I went down to 10% the remaining range was 21 miles for example.
Better car to drive than the Leaf because it's proper car shaped not like SUV on small car wheels and springs (like the Leaf) but much more plasticky inside as I say.
FuzzyWuzzy, did you look at the Polestar Forum? It's my understanding that the Launch Edition cars all had an extension up to 6 years? But as you say, there's no method or structure set up for payment anyway. Polestar 2 should hopefully be data only for the useful stuff.
Thanks for the info, one last question, did your 38kw ioniq have android auto and could it display google maps sat nav app on the infotainment screen? (sorry if that's a daft question, )it's not something I know much about)
Yes to Android Auto, wired only though.
FuzzyWuzzy, did you look at the Polestar Forum? It’s my understanding that the Launch Edition cars all had an extension up to 6 years?
On Reddit (which I do frequent) or somewhere else? My impression from the Reddit posts was nothing was confirmed still but if they have said they'll extend it to 6 years that's good news 🙂
Couple of good bits of info for you on that thread and the other one it links too.
Hm, my live traffic info mysteriously started working, without a wifi connection. The charging station search seems to have improved somewhat too - I'd accept some chargers missing - maybe - but originally there was basically nothing from the online search.
I just drove an ICE car for the first time in years. Only a short distance from ‘around the corner’ onto the driveway for a visitor.
Terrifying! A Fiesta automatic. It doesn’t slow down and stop when you take your foot off the accelerator. You have to use the brakes. Wild stuff. Weird to feel that low torque setting off too. Though lower than normal I suppose as I’d forgotten to take the handbrake off 😬.
What kind of cost comparison does anyone have around a second hand ICE and a second hand electric car of same value?
If you were to recommend a small or midsize EV, what would it be at £5-10K? Zoe, Leaf, Ioniq or i3 seem the obvious ones,
well, a quick look on auto trader at Micra vs LEAF, it's about 9k for a 2019 micra, 14k for a leaf (similar ish miles, at about 25k miles)
DrP
What kind of cost comparison does anyone have around a second hand ICE and a second hand electric car of same value?
I looked at this. I consider a Leaf to be a similar size to a Qashqai inside, although not on the outside. I know it looks like a small car, but it's really not. I could not get a 4 year old Qasqai with 60k for the money I paid - however, I did get a good deal. Prices for the two cars are broadly similar give or take a bit, going by Autotrader.
A Micra is in no way comparable to a Leaf. There is plenty of room for two adults in the back of a Leaf.
But running costs for the Leaf are about £80 less per month for us, with a modest commute, which pays for half the loan we took out. So for the same monthly outlay we would only have been able to spend £5k which would have got us something much older.
If you were to recommend a small or midsize EV, what would it be at £5-10K?
That's a difficult price range because the older first generation cars are up to about £9-10k and they are all significantly flawed in one way or another, being early tech. The Leaf or the Zoe are your only options really. That said, you can get Leafs at the lower end of that and they are good as runabouts - although avoid the 2011-2013 ones, really.
You may be lucky as I was and get a second gen Leaf for that budget, which still has some flaws; or if you can stretch to £13k you have better options. I would rather have an Ioniq, I think the 28kWh versions are around that kind of price. It has proper battery management and a CCS plug. I had a 38kWh one; it had much better and more consistent range than my 40kwh Leaf.
well, a quick look on auto trader at Micra vs LEAF, it’s about 9k for a 2019 micra, 14k for a leaf (similar ish miles, at about 25k miles)
I am OK with a purchase difference - I think I am more considering overall costs over 3-5years of owning.
A Micra is in no way comparable to a Leaf. There is plenty of room for two adults in the back of a Leaf.
You know, I honestly thought they were the same platform!
Interesting..LEAF boot is about 50% bigger, and it's longer, wider, adn taller all round! You live and lean!
DrP
You know, I honestly thought they were the same platform!
Yeah the Leaf looks a lot smaller than it is. Go sit in the back of yours 🙂
a leaf is closer to a pulsar in size - eg small family hatch instead of a supermini. a 2018 pulsar (last year they sold them here) is about £10k
I hadn't seen the Pulsar - it looks an awful lot like a Leaf. Reviews suggest there's more room in one than a Golf, and my Leaf certainly seems bigger than my folks' previous Golf if memory serves.
I am OK with a purchase difference – I think I am more considering overall costs over 3-5years of owning.
I've just been doing some sums that may or may not be helpful;
Fuel: current petrol car 20p per mile, EV 2p per mile (£2,134 saving per year based on 12k miles)*
Insurance; very similar
VED; current petrol car £210 per annum, EV £0 per annum
Rough guess at annual running costs (service, tyres, MOT); current car ~£750 per year, EV maybe £250?
Depreciation - no idea!
One off cost of ~£800 for home charger for EV
*Fuel was based on current petrol car getting 37mpg and petrol @ £1.60 per litre. EV costs based on 4 miles/kWh car efficiency and 7.5p per kWh (eg. Octopus Intelligent night rate).
and 7.5p per kWh (eg. Octopus Intelligent night rate).
its worth noting that unless you already have a battery etc, switching to a tariff like that will likely increase the cost of your existing electricity usage - taking today as a snapshot, their smart rate is ~15% higher than their best "normal" tariff during the day, so you should figure in 15% increase in your leccy bill generally.
also I don't think the KWH you pay octopus for get translated 1:1 into kwh in your battery. there's a few transformations along the way which are unlikely to be lossless
depreciation can be estimated by looking at cars for sale. Cheapest 3 year old/30,000 mile leaf is £12k. They're £27k new (were maybe £24k 3 years back) - so you're looking at £4-5k/year in depreciation for a new car, plus finance costs. That roughly matches available lease costs - £350/month or so is £4200
Octopus intelligent has a fixed kWh price outside of the cheap night time rate.
I think it is very close to the SVR?
Standing charge might be different but I think it's around 50p/day each.
Any losses during battery charging are made up by regen braking 😉
I don't think leafs were ever sub £24k?
Can you actually buy a new one for £27k now?
<p style="text-align: left;">Scrap my stupidness.....</p>
It's the pulsar I WAS thinking of as similar to the leaf! Not the micra....
Yeah, they look identical on the road TBH!
DrP
its worth noting that unless you already have a battery etc, switching to a tariff like that will likely increase the cost of your existing electricity usage – taking today as a snapshot, their smart rate is ~15% higher than their best “normal” tariff during the day, so you should figure in 15% increase in your leccy bill generally.
also I don’t think the KWH you pay octopus for get translated 1:1 into kwh in your battery. there’s a few transformations along the way which are unlikely to be lossless
True, the Octopus day rate is marginally more than my current provider (Shell), but it's pretty minimal and can hopefully be cancelled out by shifting some other current usage (washing machine and dishwasher) to the night as well. Also I can charge for free at work in theory, so my EV cost per mile figures should actually be even better in reality.
current petrol car 20p per mile, EV 2p per mile
Are these really comparable cars being driven comparably? 20p per mile suggests you're heavy on the pedals or diving some sort of tank.
Tanking up the motorway at 85 you won't get great economy or range from most EVs. Though maybe it will still be ok for your uses.
Hmmmmm. My real world figures (Cmax Vs ENiro) on fuel-only coats are:
@45mpg (unwavering average I had from the car for 10+ years) and fuel at 1.60 per litre is 16p per mile.
@4.2m/kW (again unwavering average over the past 6000 miles) charged overnight on Octopus Go @9.5p/kw is 2.26p per mile.
Saving over 12k miles - £1,640
I don’t think leafs were ever sub £24k?
Can you actually buy a new one for £27k now?
not at list price, but they were around £23k pre-reg in 2020.
in fact, you can get a brand new one for £24k today
Are these really comparable cars being driven comparably? 20p per mile suggests you’re heavy on the pedals or diving some sort of tank.
Tanking up the motorway at 85 you won’t get great economy or range from most EVs. Though maybe it will still be ok for your uses.
No not comparable cars at all. I was providing figures that I had to hand in case they were helpful (and include the ICE cars consumptions, which is 37mpg). In my case it is not actually the case of replacing the ICE with an EV - unfortunately we need to get a second car and I was just doing some man maths to work out if I could justify the additional outlay of an EV for this 2nd car. I'm hoping half the miles I currently do in the ICE car can be shifted to the EV. Also, with free charging at work, I hope the cost per mile on the EV will actually be considerably less that the 2p I've allowed. for.
Worth noting that a cheap EV (old Leaf) may only have a 60 mile range. But with a bit more outlay you can get e.g. an Ioniq 38 with a 180 mile range. That allows you to use it much more. We used ours for everything except holidays and a few trips I took on my own or that needed to carry 4 adults.
For us, spending the extra on a 40kWh Leaf means we can use it on our day trips too e.g. visiting parents, whereas a gen1 would have required maybe two fast charges.
not at list price, but they were around £23k pre-reg in 2020.
in fact, you can get a brand new one for £24k today
Yeah, I was thinking original manufacturer RRP rather than a discounted price.
Yeah, tbh I am less impressed with the Leaf after a month of ownership. On a poor bit of road at 40mph it was pitching like a small boat on a choppy sea, front to back. The Ioniq was bouncy and softly sprung, but it didn't pitch like this.
#coilovers 😉
DrP
Honestly, not worth farting about with it.
I was thinking the other day though that the Ioniq would have been a lot better with lower profile tyres and sportier shocks. That would have handled really well I reckon.
From the looks of things, used EV prices are falling quicker than ICE cars, I was surprised, many 2-3 year old EV's are 50-60% less than their new price.
Not sure I have seen this covered elsewhere ?
So with yesterdays relaxation of dooms day for ICE vehicles, will this now force car manufactures to start selling EV's without such ridiculous sky high prices to maintain switch over to EV ?
Or does it not really change the change curve graph up or down ?
I saw yesterdays announcement as a kick up the arse to the car industry to start selling affordable cars again because actually it has made it a more competitive market place.
From the looks of things, used EV prices are falling quicker than ICE cars, I was surprised, many 2-3 year old EV’s are 50-60% less than their new price.
Yeah that happened very quickly recently but seems to have stabilised from what I can tell. And when you factor in fuel savings they become a really good bargain. It may well be because there seemed to be a transition from 2nd generation to 3rd generation cars in 2020/2021 and that meant a lot of cheap cars were bought to lease then. We leased ours in April 2021 and there were very quickly loads of really cheap lease deals on stuff like Ioniqs, Leafs and Zoes. These cars became available used in May/June so that's what caused a price drop I reckon. We may see another the same time next year as the three year deals come to an end.
will this now force car manufactures to start selling EV’s without such ridiculous sky high prices to maintain switch over to EV ?
My feeling was that the prices are high atm because the current supply is less than current demand, which seems driven by people getting lease cars from work. In a few years' time we'll see these cars come onto the second hand market in volume. Manufacturers seem to be focusing on higher value more premium cars because that's what's selling, and there's probably far more profit putting 70kWh worth of battery in one £60k car than two £30k cars.
The delay in the switch-over will probably delay the development of smaller cheaper cars. Although, VW are working on a significant new cheaper iD2 (280 miles of range, £22k release in 2025) and Tesla are doing the same.
I don't see it changing the trajectory much, most of the EU states were going for 2035 anyway. Fleet average CO2 fines still mean that no-one will be interested in selling you a cheap basic ICE car, it'll be expensive higher margin stuff so you'll get hammered for tax and likely the extra over-£40k VED too.
Engine development costs a fortune and many have decided to stop doing new ones - they'll go on with existing designs for as long as they can get away with it. Euro 7 is coming in 2025 (2030 for small volume manufacturers), some of those engines will be possible to get through, some won't. Those that do, it'll add even more cost on to a new ICE car. I suspect the vast majority of new diesels will go away then - it's already under 8% of the market for this year so far, and they'll be harder to meet euro 7. "ICE" cars will actually be petrol hybrids and PHEVs long before 2030.
In the meantime, the tax efficiency of EV company cars and salary sacrifice schemes will put plenty of affordable used EVs into the market, public charging will get better and better, more petrol stations will close, and more people will choose an EV.
I think it is very close to the SVR?
The Octopus Inteligent daily and per kw rate is pretty much 10% more than their std variable rate so that does need to be factored in if you can't move usage away from peak.
If I were making a fair comparison I'd be tempted to compare it to the historically 30% less than their tracker rate offers [I guess that may not be so fair as Inteligent is at least fixed a little being a variable rate tariff], apportioning the capital outlay/opportunity cost/inflation on any solar/battery/EV investment. I appreciate that's hard but without it the "haha it costs me 1p/mile you ICE suckers" really is meritless. Just my view
molgrips
Full MemberYes to Android Auto, wired only though.
A note for anyone with wired Android Auto, the AAWireless dongle is effing awesome! It turns a wired AA head unit into wireless plus allows you to mess around with the settings for example to force it to display a higher DPI or workaround various head unit bugs. Really great bit of kit!
The latest beta even adds using Apple phones through Android Auto
I've just spotted that the EU ban is 2035, so aligning the UK to that date rather than being 5 years earlier actually makes a lot of sense.
Skeptically, I assume we originally set our date 5 years earlier to look as though were somehow ahead of the curve. Which as a small part of a large market is a ridiculous thing to do as the markets won't change their product development roadmaps just for us.
I wonder whether the plan was always to slide this back 5 years to match the EU - saving the timing for when it's politically helpful to get some people on board (such as now).
Which will be why it's being presented in the manner it is now (including the "accidental" leak a few days before so that the tabloids and social media can get max value out of it). A presentation of the change in sensible terms ("we made a mistake setting it early - we need to align with the larger market") both doesn't make the masses think the government is doing them a favour and also doesn't play well to the "sovereignty" audience.