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most modern (<2 year old) EV will do 200 miles on a charge no problem. Older teslas will manage it too, most other older cars (leafs etc) won't make it. 90 mile round trip should be fine in most cars, but again there's some exceptions with things that are a bit older with more limited range that might struggle in winter.
A BMW i3 94Ah (2016+) with REX will do 200miles on a single charge and 9l of fuel.
Yep, I’m giving serious thought to an i3 94ah Rex next. Can minimise fuel use to almost nothing, charge if you can on long trips but no bother if you can’t, just do frequent petrol topups instead.
Plenty of current affordable cars will do over 200 miles WLTP but that’s not the same as a rainy winter 70mph motorway trip. The cheaper older stuff definitely won’t (watch out for pre 2018 cars using the even more optimistic NEDC rating).
I have every confidence doing 200+ miles in my
egolf (140ish WLTP), I just factor in time for charging and I’m willing to go off the motorway for it. Gridserve taking over the services chargers is excellent news, although we’ll see how well supply keeps up with demand.
As for Lakes, the Booths in Ulverston, Keswick, Windermere, Kendal all have 4x Instavolt rapid chargers now. Carnforth/Penrith branches both have two. Several more with other providers, and dozens of slower chargers mostly at hotels and restaurants.
Don't get an I3 Rex.
Unreliable, poor handling and you'll never use the motor you're carting around the whole time!
Get the "big" battery one and just fast charge as needed. The network is expanding rapidly, so for a few times a year that's really not a problem. Take a look on Zap map or use abetterrouteplanner to input your current typical long range journey and see where the chargers are, filter by >50kW fast chargers only.
(I3s 42kWh owner here..... 😉
OP do you have the option to install off street charging at home? If not using public chargers only is possible but a PITA.
A modern EV with a 60kWh or larger battery will easily do 200 miles but I guess if you are buying used and want to keep the price down you'll be looking at older Nissan Leafs and Renault Zoes which might not do that espcecially in winter. I'm sure our resident Zoe and Leaf experts will be along shortly to advise you better than I can.
Also be aware that older Leafs and Zoes will have Chademo rapid charge connectors which has been overtaken by CCS as the de-facto rapid charging standard connector in Europe so in the future there will be less and less chargers with Chademo capability.
As for charging. Have a look at zap-map or Plugshare and check out the charging situation for the parts of the country you regularly travel to. Most is OK however mid-Wales is a charger desert at the moment.
OP do you have the option to install off street charging at home? If not using public chargers only is possible but a PITA.
That’s not the case for all. It depends where you are and access to chargers. For me it’s simple, I’ve one near by and just check on the app or pop down.
older Leafs and Zoes will have Chademo rapid charge connectors
Zoés have always been Type 2 and the latest ones have the option of CSS in adition to Type 2
As for range it depends mainly on how and where you drive. In both our previous 41kWh Zoé and the current 52kWh we've averaged the claimed range in Summer and 10-15% less in Winter. However, driving at the autoroute speed limit of 130kmh, which is as fast as they'll go, empties the battery in a trip to the coast (about 120km), completely in the 41 and mostly in the 52.
Just read this article about the dangers of charging an EV in a garage overnight, because if something bad happens, it can escalate very quickly!
Somewhat lower risk than using a clothes dryer or dishwasher overnight then. Or having lights in your ceiling, or charging your mobile phone. I ride with two insurance bods who have a really good idea of the most dangerous electrical appliances and your electric car isn't one of them.
https://www.insurancequotes.com/home/most-dangerous-appliances
Don’t get an I3 Rex.
Unreliable, poor handling and you’ll never use the motor you’re carting around the whole time!
Utter bollox. I've owned one since new in 2016 and the the only part of the car which has gone wrong in 50k miles are the top mounts which are common on all i3s. The Rex is 120kg including fuel and gets another 90 miles. The bigger battery one gets you another 40-50 miles while costing a lot more and is actually heavier than the 94ah REX. Having test driven both the 94AH REX and the 94AH BEV, I couldn't tell any difference in how they performed.
The REX gives you a ton of flexibility. We've driven to Cumbria from Bath (330 miles) with only a single stop which you wouldn't dare do with a 42.2KW BEV as you'd be arriving in a location with very few chargers and almost no charge remaining if any at all. As it stood, we did just under 200 miles on the first battery and fuel load and 100 miles of battery on the second before switching to the REX with 30% remaining in the pack. We arrived with the flexibility of both systems having partial capacity. You can start the rex at 75% charge and totally deplete it if you know you can charge at a destination or you can leave it to activate at 3-7% in an auto mode.
it also gives you the confidence to use ALL the battery range which you wouldn't do in a pure BEV just in case the charger was busy/broken/slow when you got to it.
Early 2014 60Ah REXs had problems but this was all sorted out.
If you are happy with a certified jerry can in your BMW Rex the range is whatever you are prepared to carry. Which legally is a hell of a lot whatever you might read to the contrary.
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My wife’s ID3 finally arrived just over a week ago. First impressions are really good. Great little car and seems to be very frugal even compared to the Tesla. We upgraded to the heat pump, bigger alloys and the go faster stripes on the side.. and maybe the colour (can’t remember). Only slight bug is that I don’t think one pedal driving is really possible even driving it in ‘B’ (high regen) mode.. and reverse gear is a bit all or nothing! Especially reversing up our slight incline of a driveway.. it creeps like an ICE auto in reverse quite a lot. Are there any other ID3 drivers on here that can comment on this please?
Cheers
Nice. Moonstone grey is free but it’s a good colour IMO.
I’m guessing the auto-hold on the electric handbrake is similar to most VWs and wants switching off for manoeuvres like reversing uphill.
Somewhat lower risk than using a clothes dryer or dishwasher overnight then. Or having lights in your ceiling, or charging your mobile phone. I ride with two insurance bods who have a really good idea of the most dangerous electrical appliances and your electric car isn’t one of them.
I take it statistics wasn't something you taught?
Pure numbers are meaningless, how many more kitchen appliances are there than electric cars, what's the percentage share per total number of households?
As for lower risk, you're conflating lower likelihood with lower risk. Risk is actually calculated as likelihood x severity, the severity of a hob fire is many times less than a battery fire which can burn for 24h and one manufacturer has advised it's easier to just let it burn out than try to fight it. Hence the manufacturers concerned advising customers NOT to keep electric cars indoors (risk mitigation).
Cheers @simon_g. Yeah moonstone grey that’s the badger 👍. Hadn’t even thought about the auto handbrake so will have a look at that see if there’s any tinkering in the settings. Thanks
All going well we are getting a Tesla M3 at the start of September, can’t wait!
seems to be very frugal even compared to the Tesla
Surprised to hear you say that. All the reviews I’ve seen seem to think VAG are miles off the efficiency pace compared to Tesla and Hyundai/Kia. How many miles have you done and what’s the miles per KW?
You're teaching your grandmother to suck eggs and making a fool of yourself, squirrelking. You and Countzero are on the wrong thread to provoke anything other than shaking heads here.
It was the same when people started to install solar panels on their houses. The antis dreamed up all sorts of horrors based on exceptional events limited to one brand of product and tried to frighten people.
In my underground car park GPL vehicles are banned but not electrics.
As for advice from "manufacturers" to "NOT" park indoors, that's the GM Bolt I assume. I'll be delighted to read any links you can provide from any other manufacturers. Norway has A LOT of EV charging in car parks under properties.
You’re teaching your grandmother to suck eggs and making a fool of yourself, squirrelking.
Oh aye, so do you work with risk calculations in your day job? Oh that's right, you're a retired teacher and water technician who likes to pretend he's the font of all ****ing knowledge.
Every time I hear this song it reminds me of you.
Can't ever be wrong about anything.
Still, feel free to continue giving me opinions and viewpoints I never offered. Never said I was anti-EV, just anti-bad maths. You made the arse of yourself here, not me. Your main error was linking to an English publication rather than hiding behind French to try and look clever. Don't do that, the look doesn't suit you.
Hence the manufacturers concerned advising customers NOT to keep electric cars indoors
There's one manufacturer I'm aware of and it's well publicised, the GM bolt which is the subject of a recall. Your 's' at the end of manufacturers says several so I'm keen to know about the others.
You rubbish my appraissal of the risk presented by storing an electric car inside with much reference to 'statistics' (a word I haven't used and you're putting words into my mouth again). Present some statistics then for us all to enjoy.
Your xenophobia becomes apparent again, you always raise the issue of my nationality when you're swearing at me.
Stats, yeah, I did those too. The 'water technician' published his work in the Journal of Environmental Management, presented the project on national TV and was well respected in his field before doing other things more lucrative and more motivating. Because even when environmental scientists are right (the usually are) people (especially people in power) don't want to listen because doing something would be inconvenient.
You can do something: if you run a car make it an electric one, it'll reduce your carbon footprint and won't poison people you drive past.
I was just perusing this thread, as I do from time to time, and can't resist a poke.
if you run a car make it an electric one, it’ll reduce your carbon footprint
Yes, that's true, but not by much (especially considering how drastically we need to cut our CO2 to avert the Climate Catastrophe).
Manufacturing an EV takes much more energy, dominated by the battery pack. A good approximation is 100kg CO2 per kwh of battery capacity, and I'll take a 100kwh battery. That's an extra 10,000kg CO2 that was generated in the production of an EV.
How long does this take to pay back? Less in France, assuming you count your > 70% nuclear power mix as "renewable". Longer in the UK, which apparently now emits 0.233kg CO2 per kwh (and again assuming that nuclear is renewable and zero CO2).
Assuming an EV with 0.3kwh/mile, that's 0.07 kg CO2 per mile
Assuming a 40mpg petrol car, that's 8.8 miles per litre of petrol. A litre of petrol produces 2.4kg CO2. Adding 30% for well-to-tank CO2 costs, that's 3.1kg CO2 per litre or 0.36kg CO2 per mile
Each mile driven in an EV in the UK therefore saves 0.29kg CO2, compared to an old petrol car like the one I have. You'll have to drive 35,000 miles to pay off the manufacture of that battery pack.
If we compared to a diesel car, and got 60mpg, the 2.6kg CO2 per litre of diesel and 24% well-to-tank CO2 costs works out at 0.25kg CO2 per mile. Your EV battery payback period is now 55,000 miles.
and won’t poison people you drive past
Obviously, CO2 emissions are not everything, and I really can see the benefits of cycling to work without sucking in diesel and petrol fumes (I personally don't drive diesel, only because I resent others inflicting those fumes on me). Saying that, I would not like to live near an electronics recycling facility.
Seems to me that "halve the amount you drive" is much simpler advice that would achieve the same goal.
As you were.
Obviously, you're not home and dry after paying back the manufacture of your EV battery pack, and continue emitting CO2 at a rate determined by your local energy mix (0.07 kg CO2 per mile, in the UK).
Your xenophobia becomes apparent again, you always raise the issue of my nationality when you’re swearing at me.
No, I raise the issue that you can only conveniently find French articles to support your arguments despite you being British born. I couldn't give a single solitary **** what your nationality is but if you're going to argue point at least have the decency to do so in the lingua franca [/irony burn]
As for your "statistics" you presented a load of meaningless numbers regarding kitchen appliance fires as some sort of rebuttal to electric vehicle fires. Thats absolutely statistically relevant but you got caught with your trousers
well and truly round your ankles balls deep in a sheep. Deal with it.
.
Don't get personal you look like children.
Anyway, this is pretty big IMO. Nissan dropped prices (in the US) by 13.5% for 2022. Same car, now cheaper. It's now only $20k which is pretty damn good.
https://insideevs.com/news/524536/us-nissan-leaf-prices-2022my/amp/
Nissan struggle to sell them in the US but need to sell EVs in some states to be able to sell ICE there. Often hear of crazy cheap leases or things like giving them away with pickup trucks.
The US doesn’t like hatchbacks and the EV nerds have mostly moved on to Teslas but Nissan doesn’t have anything better to offer yet.
We're looking at estates and keen to make the jump to an ev. Went and tested the mg the other week, seemed pretty basic as new cars go but Price, boot space and roof rails (new long range version has usable ones) all ticked boxes. Do keep then wondering about plug in hybrids though, the Skoda's are lot nicer more modern feeling cars but is hybrid half arsed? Whilst the short battery range would cover most shorter trips I could imagine getting lazy and not charging it, reverting to petrol all the time as it won't be enough to change the way you approach journey's in the same way I imagine an ev would
I was just perusing this thread, as I do from time to time, and can’t resist a poke.
OK I'll bite
A good approximation is 100kg CO2 per kwh of battery capacity, and I’ll take a 100kwh battery.
Agreed but as we decarbonise electricity production we also decarbonise battery production. For example a batteries made at Tesla's Gigafactory Nevada using a large amount of solar have an embedded CO2 of 62kg per kWh.
Assuming a 40mpg petrol car, that’s 8.8 miles per litre of petrol.
Recent data from real world fueld economy figures from Spritmonitor.de indicates the figure is more like 36mpg.
Seems to me that “halve the amount you drive” is much simpler advice that would achieve the same goal.
True but that only gets you half way and EV manufacture will continue to decarbonise. Plus its probably going to be easier to get UK drivers into EVs than to get them to half their mileage.
Agreed but as we decarbonise electricity production we also decarbonise battery production.
In that case, as more and more EVs are built, it's incredibly important that they are manufactured from CO2-neutral power sources. Otherwise in the short term, everyone will be emitting more CO2, as they work through the "CO2 payback period" of their EV. Unless we only buy EVs from carbon-netural sources, it seems that they will make the current Climate Catastrophe worse, not better (assuming that we all need to cut our CO2 right now).
Plus its probably going to be easier to get UK drivers into EVs than to get them to half their mileage.
Given that combatting the Climate Catastrohpe is all about hard choices, I don't see that as a problem. If the government can mandate a switch to EVs, it could also legislate a more sustainable (and less car-dependent) lifestyle. It wouldn't take much - new housing and commercial developments could have a target for % of essential tasks that can be done without a car. Cycle infrastructure could be designed and built by people who actually care about being able to use a bicycle as a substitute for driving, instead of people who only want to complete the requisite number of bikelane miles. Or maybe add a requirement that bike lanes must actually go somewhere, and "the edge of a difficult and dangerous junction" not being an acceptable destination.
@pedlad it looks like the ID3 has averaged 3.6 mi/kWh in the 220 miles since it was delivered.
In Tesla money that’s 278 wh/mi but I tend to use more than that and average around the 300 mark.. so it is actually doing better than the M3P.
Now there are other factors at play here.. the Performance doesn’t have very aero wheels like the ID3 and I sometimes have the bike rack/bike/roofbox up top but more often than not it’s just the naked car. My model 3 missed the standard inclusion of the heat pump the newer ones get. I’ll be monitoring the ID3 over time.
A further factor is my wife’s lead foot and habit of driving too fast whilst also stressing about range 🤷♂️ (I can see exactly where she is and what speed she is doing on the app!) But this will average out across the cars as we regularly drive each other's.
There is no mandating of EVs by the government though, twrch, just incentives which clearly aren't enough given current uptake. There need to be incentives in other areas too.
My first holiday this Summer was a train to Paris then winding our way 1445km back home on Bromptons, which have some embedded carbon on too. We stayed in 19 campsites of which only one had solar heated pool and showers. About 180km were on cycle paths, 25km trails, 250km cycle routes on roads and the rest on the quietest roads on the map. Yes, more cycle infrastructure and renewable energy would be welcome. The main incentive behind the cycle paths we did was tourism and the economic benefits thereof.
This holiday is in Zoé. 10.9 kWh/100km so far. A camping holiday horse riding, canoeing, mtbing, walking, swimming... with public transport would be nice. As it is all the kit only just fitted in Zoé. Society is currently built around cars and a road network. I'll use that system in the absence of anything better with the least filthy car available.
If you only read stuff in English you'll only get one view of the world, the anglo-saxon one. Not all the wisdom in other laguages makes it to English news sources, unfortunately. Google translate works so well I fail to see the problem with linking stuff in any language.
Google translate works so well I fail to see the problem with linking stuff in any language.
But it doesn't always work, especially with technical language. That's my main objection.
Lots of foreign articles are printed in English, similarly English is the Forum language so its not really asking much to use that in discussion. It wouldn't be half as bad if it wasn't near on every single article you link to.
I was serious though about the statistical relevance of that insurance article you linked to, it doesn't take percentage share per household into account so whilst 7 battery fires for Tesla may seem small, as a percentage of total sales it may be more statistically relevant than it appears. It also doesn't take into account the severity of a battery fire which, as I pointed out was the other half of the equation hence GM advising not to keep charged or charging cars indoors as the risk was high enough to require mitigation.
Finally regardless of your personal remarks directed at me I was out of order with the personal remarks back, sorry for that.
Fact is (French article not linked) EVs catch fire less than ICEs.
Most STWers seem quite happy with links to foreign stuff, I always post visible urls so people can chose to open or not. No links to conspiracy theory nonsense hidden behind text from me.
There are several STW regulars in many EU countries. I got to 14 without thinking too hard and many more irregular members. One of the delightful things about this forum is the diversity of veiws from Germany, Spain, Belgium, Austria, France, Sweden... . If you want to go anywhere in Europe there will be someone on STW to help you out with local knowledge.
Tbh I'm jealous of the ease with which you move between languages. Overseas links are no issue for me. Good to see an alternate pov and I'd recommend bing translate over Google 👍
Fact is (French article not linked) EVs catch fire less than ICEs.
I'm not disputing that, what is of greater relevance is of those ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %? I'm very aware it happens on occasion so there should be figures out there to answer the question. The next question is how does that compare to the incidence rate of BEV fires?
There are far, far less BEV's on the road than ICE's so those fires are of greater statistical relevance if you're comparing like for like.
There are several STW regulars in many EU countries.
I know, that's still missing the point that the ligua franca is English.
FFS! ST`FU!
There is no mandating of EVs by the government though
The only reason so many manufacturers are switching to hybrids and EVs is that the EURO emissions regulations make it harder and harder to make an ICE car, and ultimately will make it impossible. Even us in the uncultured UK apparently will have a ban on new petrol cars in 2030. I'm not sure how you can say there is no mandate, when that is precisely what is happening.
If you only read stuff in English you’ll only get one view of the world, the anglo-saxon one.
I deal in facts and figures. The lingua franca of science and research is English.
I’m not disputing that, what is of greater relevance is of those ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %? I’m very aware it happens on occasion so there should be figures out there to answer the question. The next question is how does that compare to the incidence rate of BEV fires?
Arguably a ICE fire just needs bad luck (parked up after extended drive, football or something rolls underneath and wedges against the exhaust) whereas for a BEV to catch fire a significant number of safeguards would have to fail.
ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %
I've had this happen. Bought a car that had recently had its exhaust done. Drove home late one night, parked it up and went to bed. Had a phone call 30 mins later from the fire brigade who wanted to get into it as there was smoke pouring out. They got it out and it turned out that when the exhaust had been fitted some underbody insulation was disturbed, some of it was touching the exhaust and after a long drive followed by a stop it got hot enough to catch fire.
I've owned maybe 20 ICE cars so I'd say theres a 5% chance of it happening 😉
BMW M3 on the M4 last week. Front end completely engulfed in flames. Starter motor stuck on?
Ferrari 458…
Almost 3000 McLaren’s recalled over fire risks…
Battery fires are more dangerous, but should start to become even rarer as battery management becomes better.
BMW have recalled various models over recent years due to fire risks, it was too late for my Uncle’s the recall came soon after. BMW hybrids have been one of the models.
As an aside, we keep seeing quoted figures of a carbon payback in miles of EV over ICE, but what is a good number here? Between the lines I read the implication that 50k miles or whatever is not good, and I don't get it.
Any number here that's less than the car's life denotes a car that's emitting less over its life. The numbers we see tend to be about 1/3 of a car's design life, and my experience of their actual life is similar. Of course I'd like this number to be as low as possible but we're well over the hurdle that justifies the manufacture of the EV over the manufacture of the ICE.
FFS! ST`FU!
@drac I've made my point regarding language. Fine.
If your problem is with me calling out bad use of statistics and risk calculation then sorry but no.
Everyone else - I never said ICEs don't have similar issues, I'm asking what the percentage is that spontaneously combust and questioning whether it's more, less or the same as BEVs.