It will be just like when we pulled out of iraq , only replace sunnies and shiites with smokers , and drinkers and substitute the heroin addicts with the taliban, we will just have to go and fix it once they have decided it was a stupid idea, The poor english tax payer therefore will pick up the bill.

Well it's the end of my country, the UK, not even Hitler could do that!

Who's stupid idea was it to give them a choice?

It was Cameron who offered and gave them the choice of a referendum.

So Cameron by extension, has been worse for Britain's future than Hitler.

[img] [/img]

It all makes sense now....I'm going to have so much fun ripping the shit out of my Tory mates with this for the next two decades.

[i]It doesn't really matter what he thinks though. He's there until the next election, then its all up for grabs again. Thats the problem with democracy, that even Alex Salmonds ego can't get around[/i]

+1

Surely once independent they'll need to disband the SNP, as their job is done 🙂

In the event of a Yes the SNP will play the "we brought you independence stick with us, all other parties were against this revolution". The SNP will take the centre-left ground. Labour will be forced further left into oblivion and if we believe what we are told no one votes Conservative in Scotland anyway. If Scotland votes yes the SNP are going to win the first election for sure, after that it will be based upon results with the SNP saying "stick with us, change takes time, be patient and all our troubles are Westminsters fault" - they will do this for about 25 years if not more.

Looking at all those lined up against the Yes vote makes me think there must be something in it. Scotland never voted for this government, they avoided the student loan fiasco, they resent London centrism. Why should they not go to protect their welfare state and vote for a government that more closely reflects or represents their aspirations.
My experience of Scots in the early 70s was that they seemed on average much more aware of current affairs and politics than the English. This vote won't be taken lightly and if it's yes then good luck to them. Maybe it'll encourage people in England to start fighting their corner against p***poor employers and this administration. Lead the way Jimmy!

It doesn't really matter what he thinks though. He's there until the next election, then its all up for grabs again.

What's up for grabs? The independence negotiations will be done by then - a yes vote is a vote for Alex to carry those out in accordance with the BOD, a mandate for him to make his demands. He did point this out in the last debate, was nobody listening?

On the plus side, our nation's average life expectancy will rise significantly, and our average yearly rainfall fall, so long life and dry trails all round. 🙂

bizarrely (it seems to me) I have at least one very tory - or at least a mate with very tory views - who is voting, as far as I can gather, yes as he's fed up with distant Westminster rule. There may be others...

The whole thing is a massive missed opportunity for everybody except the Scots.

I'd love to see genuine regional devolution across the Island with London as a region in its own right. I rather liked the idea of dividing the land up as the old kingdoms were drawn out; Mercia, Wessex, Northumbria, Dumnonia etc.

Proper regional representation and genuine devolution out of London and the Home Counties. It's a bit of leap I'll grant you but it's time we did something completely different.

If they can vote to stay or go, I think we (English) should be allowed to vote of we want them (Scotland) to remain as part of the UK or not actually.

I do suspect that we will, in the medium to long term, will be better off without Scotland though and the Scottish might actually be getting encouraged to go it alone by stealth means that I cant possibly provide details of on a public forum,

I've already said too much.

yossarian +1.

If interested Henry McLeish has an intersting take on greater regional devolution.

Yossarian +2

coolhandluke - Member

If they can vote to stay or go, I think we (English) should be allowed to vote of we want them (Scotland) to remain as part of the UK or not actually.

England has always had the option of leaving the UK if they want.

If they can vote to stay or go, I think we (English) should be allowed to vote of we want them (Scotland) to remain as part of the UK or not actually.

Why only the English? Do the Welsh/Northern Irish have a say too? It's this kind of mentality which is causing the Scots to want to leave!

Yeah, and we'll do the same on a possible 'stay-in-the-EU-vote' too, to allow all of Europe a vote to decide if the UK stays in!

*runs* 😛

I can't be arsed about the pros and cons of this, but if I was a Scot I'd be sneaking out at the dead of night with a sledgehammer and smashing that bloody awful statue to bits!
It's so crudely done, quite apart from the fact it shows a racist Australian playing a historically inaccurate portrayal of a Scot, it's just an embarrassment.

It's now in Tom Church's own garden, apparently, nobody wants to display it so he took it back.

I'm looking forward to the fights.
The vilification Romanians, muslamic swans, and anyone vaguely foreign gets from the Daily Mail, will pail into insignificance compare to the hate-storm they'll be planning to stir up towards Scotland if they vote yes.

I can understand the general feeling of discontent with Westminster government but regional devolution/independence (whether Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Yorkshire, whatever) away from Westminster government isn't suddenly going to make life any better...

Partly - we'll still be governed by politicians (and I've not noticed a better calibre of politician at local level than we have at national level - look at your local cycle lane provision for a clue!)

But mainly, the current economic mess is not actually of Westminster's making. USA, Spain, Ireland, France, Portugal, Italy, Greece etc are all in a mess too.

Globalisaton is beyond the control of Westminster. The West hasn't always been wealthy and powerful - we've just been lucky enough to live in a time when we have been. Globalisation is what's changed our fortunes. Fair enough, we've not prepared for it too well, but show me a Western government that did...

No-one has power and wealth forever - Romans lost their empire, Ancient Greece lost its way, so did the Ottoman Empire, so did Soviet Union - happens to all wealthy nations eventually...

I can't see how rejecting Westminster (as ineffective as it is) is quite going to help us compete against the rising economic and political power of China and belligerence of Russia...

I've not noticed a better calibre of politician at local level than we have at national level

No, but the flavour is different. See how the makeup of SP and WA is different to the commons.

No-one has power and wealth forever - Romans lost their empire, Ancient Greece lost its way, so did the Ottoman Empire, so did Soviet Union - happens to all wealthy nations eventually...

Bendigedig! Time for Wales to rise! New international language: Cymraeg!

Free bara brith for all! 😀

New international language: Cymraeg!

Great, we'll all just be spitting over each other trying to get the Ll pronunciation right!

but honestly do we want a flag like this?

that's what my butt looks like after a long sweaty ride

if the vote goes yes, then it will be the English property investors that will benefit the most when Scottish house prices crash, they will be snapped up by the English looking for holiday homes, and to increase their buy to let portfolios.

this will piss the Scots off soooo much.

if the vote goes yes, then it will be the English property investors that will benefit the most when Scottish house prices crash, they will be snapped up by the English looking for holiday homes, and to increase their buy to let portfolios.

this will piss the Scots off soooo much.

Alternatively if interest rates go up to help defend Sterling, the whole UK housing market incl/esp London will tank... (which would suit me incidentally, I want to buy a house!)

Either way, it's all this uncertainty which will most likely impact on us in the immediate turn and falls in Scottish co shares and Sterling today aren't suggesting good news for Scotland or rUK on 19th...

I would expect that the rest of the uk would take a greater interest in the EU, cutting out the middleman of Westminster.

Westminster was merely rubber stamping a lot of legislation, generated in Brussels.

Does this mean we will be able to finally get rid of GMT as well scotland??

Brooess! Stop it with those very sensible and accurate views. Just leave us alone to destroy ourselves because we are to thick to understand the reason for our decline. We want the gravy train to continue for ever even when we know it's not possible. Here's to England the soon to be third world country. Mind us in Yorkshire will have gained Freeeeedom b then. We want a Free Yorkshire and we want it cheap.

What's the bets that Scottish TV will show the film Braveheart at primetime the night before the vote?

As for the Union Jack, just simply replace the blue parts for Scotland with green to represent Wales & Northern Ireland. So a Red, White and Green Union Jack. Looks quite nice 🙂

[img] [/img]

That kelly green might be a bit too 'Irish' for the Ulster Unionists...

But lose the diagonal cross too.

If it happens, I would like the UK to keep the Union Flag as it is, just to see Salmond's reaction.

If it happens, I would like the UK to keep the Union Flag as it is, just to see Salmond's reaction.

I dont see a) why they'd change it and b) why Salmond would give a monkeys?

Because the Blue on the union flag is an Asset, and Scotland are entitled to their fair share!

"The Union Flag was retained in its current form. Partly as a practical economy measure, to save the costs of making new flags, but also as an affirmation that Scotland remained an integral part of the Union - even if it was under an illegal occupation for the time being - and that one day it would be returned to the fold. Though no one explained exactly how or when it would be achieved."

For all the accusations of Bullying and Bluster, it seems that Mr Salmond is by far the biggest culprit of all:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11073598/Alex-Salmond-Meet-the-bully-behind-the-mask.html ]Alex Salmond: Meet the bully behind the mask[/url]

What a total pillock - is this who the Scots would seriously consider leading them into independence?

Well, if you sit around waiting for a virtuous politician to spearhead independence, you're going to be a long time waiting.

Well, if you sit around waiting for a [s]virtuous[/s] politician who tells the truth and not want he thinks the Scottish voters want to hear to spearhead independence, you're going to be a long time waiting.

Changed that for you 🙂

1. The ability to set Scottish policies without involving them in the discussion (law of unintended consequences)
2. The opportunity for speculators to make money - once again AS helps the wrong money men
3. Rental prices at 100 Cheapside rise 25% in a week - the property guys are smiling (tongue in cheek that one)
4. A headache

Cheers Alex, the foretaste of what a fairer society (sic) looks like,

Alex Salmond is an odious slimy little turd. I think most Scottish voters are as aware of that as those south of the border. But once again...

[b]THIS ISN'T AN ELECTION! THIS ISN'T A VOTE FOR A PERSON, OR EVEN A POLITICAL PARTY. THIS IS A VOTE ABOUT WHETHER THE COUNTRY BECOMES INDEPENDENT, OR NOT![/b]

A lot of people seem to be really, really struggling with this fairly simple concept

On the contrary, they get it exactly. If it was what you say it was, the answer would be clear.

The sensible debate about the relative merits if independence went out of the window with the publication of the white paper and it has been downhill ever since.

I'm glad Osborne has said Scotland can't have the pound. They can't have the Bank of England as the lender of last resort. Thank ****. We are only just starting to recover from the recession.

THIS ISN'T AN ELECTION! THIS ISN'T A VOTE FOR A PERSON, OR EVEN A POLITICAL PARTY. THIS IS A VOTE ABOUT WHETHER THE COUNTRY BECOMES INDEPENDENT, OR NOT!

Yes but what people in Scotland need to be aware of is that the utopia of independence is going to be nothing like as rosy as this sticky little turd (and his merry band of klingons) are promising. That's where I have a big issue with him, in that he's totally misleading the Scottish voters on the whole independence issue. He's like a smiling man sat in his mac in a car outside a primary school, handing out sweets and offering a lift home to small children.

utopia of independence is going to be nothing like as rosy as this sticky little turd (and his merry band of klingons) are promising

I think they know this. And they also know that it probably won't be half as bad as the naysayers are saying it will be. The trouble is, the more patronising rubbish like this they get told, the higher chance there is of them voting yes. Salmond will obviously talk up the benefits of independence, that's his job so you can't really criticise him for it. The no campaign should be talking up the benefits of union, of which there are many, but all they come out with is patronising scare stories and colonial rubbish along the lines of 'you'll never be able to run your own country better than we can'.

Daz has got it bang on. The no campaigners are constantly being ridiculously patronising. As well as lazy , condescending and complacent. " Aaaaah... bless the poor little simpletons. The think its an election, and they're voting for Alex". Which is absolutely typical of a Westminster 'Elite' that stopped listening to what people are [i]actually[/i] saying decades ago. This - Independence - being the inevitable result! And the penny still hasn't dropped with them as to why! They just don't get it, at all!

From the interviews I've heard, the Scottish know full well what they're voting for, and are fully engaged in the process. Its people south of the border who seem to be struggling with it

From my small poll I wouldn't be sure that people know what they are getting, it seems a surprise that the NHS won't be saved, mortgage rates will likely rise and stay higher and that actually the cutover will cost billions. I heard some joker say they would reinstate all the services we share with the UK government for 500million, oh hahahaha really ? That wouldn't even touch the sides.I like the concept but the details are sorely lacking for me.

I hate to think the effect them having to run their own NHS would have on their PAYE, not to mention pensions, I simply can't see the sums adding up for them. Hell we're running a big enough deficit with it.

Surely the tax receipts they'll get from the Oil are not going to be great enough to cover the shortfall, has there been a budget actually published from anyone on the pro Independence campaign that details it and how have they managed to break out the PAYE records from those companies that pay from the UK to Scottish employees and vice versa.

Then assuming Independence and you are a Brit Company paying Scottish employees, some working both sides of the border some living here some living there, how the hell are you going to divide the tax and where will it head? It will be so bloody complicated.

From the interviews I've heard, the Scottish know full well what they're voting for, and are fully engaged in the process. Its people south of the border who seem to be struggling with it

You know what you're voting for sure, but almost certainly by default what you'll get is this total toe-rag and his odious hangers on as the head of a newly indpendant Scotland. But I suppose as you'll be independant, at least you'll have chosen the little s*it. He'll be YOUR little toe-rag, just unfortunately with a lot more power to really F things up.

I think they know this.

Really? There are an awful lot of people on the threads on here who seem not to understand some of the basic issues, despite them having been explained numerous times.

This discussion is like when I was half way through the last series of Breaking Bad, and my girlfriend came in - "Why's he doing that? Who's she? Why did he just shoot that man? Is the bald man a goody or a baddy?"

Really? There are an awful lot of people on the threads on here who seem not to understand some of the basic issues, despite them having been explained numerous times.

Well yes, but we love you anyway, even if you are a bit obtuse 😉

😆

has there been a budget actually published from anyone on the pro Independence campaign

Don't you worry your pretty little head about any of that complicated stuff. Just have faith in Alex's Big Book of Dreams, and it'll all be ok.

Surely it is the Yes campaign who are being patronising as they won't actually explain anything to the voters ?

In the event of a Yes vote the Scots will be worse off, the Yes voters won't care as they'll say we get to run our own affairs and will hang on the false promise of Gold at the end of the rainbow. The No voters will be furious as they will be worse off. The UK will be hacked off as they will be worse off and they will quite rightly feel they didn't get a say. IMO this will manifest itself very strongly in deep divisions in Scotland and a hostile rhetoric in the UK election in 2015.

A No vote would be the least divisive as the Yes side would get some form of concessions but I would still expect a degree of disunity in Scotland post the vote.

As an aside I noticed AS asking that Labour (Brown etc) do whats best for Scotland post a Yes vote. What he means is agree to things like a currency union which is very important to Scotland and which are in fact negative for the UK where such a union delivers minimal benefits vs the huge risk of having to backstop the Scottish economy.

Dammit, are we having the independence discussion over on here too?

Well we wouldn't want the smaller thread to be completely irrelevant, ben.

As an aside I noticed AS asking that Labour (Brown etc) do whats best for Scotland post a Yes vote.

Have you got an actual quote? Because I'd love to see the reaction if anybody asked Sir BS to do what's best for rUK.

Assuming there is a yes vote, I can see Scotland going through something a bit like the opposite of the five stages of grief.

1. Euphoria

Hooray, we’re independent. We’ve got rid of those tory ****s.

2. Anxiety

Oh shit… what do we do next?

3. Bargaining

Err… you know we said we wanted independence? Well what we meant by independence was…

4. Anger

It was those bloody politicians, they tricked us into it. Again!

5. Denial

Well I never voted for it. Did you?

And if there is a no vote there will be an eternity of Scottish politicians commenting on every issue with "This would never have happened in an independent Scotland."

What tyres for leaping Hadrian's Wall in Steve McQueen Great Escape style? (From England to Free Scotland.)

Assuming there is a yes vote, I can see Scotland going through something a bit like the opposite of the five stages of grief.

1. Euphoria

Hooray, we’re independent. We’ve got rid of those tory ****.

2. Anxiety

Oh shit… what do we do next?

3. Bargaining

Err… you know we said we wanted independence? Well what we meant by independence was…

4. Anger

It was those bloody politicians, they tricked us into it. Again!

5. Denial

Well I never voted for it. Did you?

And if there is a no vote there will be an eternity of Scottish politicians commenting on every issue with "This would never have happened in an independent Scotland."

😆

I'm holding off buying a house until the result comes through, it could become much cheaper, but much harder to get a mortgage, but no one really knows for sure.

Well we wouldn't want the smaller thread to be completely irrelevant, ben.

Can this be the funny thread, then? I'll start with this:

[img] [/img]

And this:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/brown-woos-scots-with-thrilling-timetable-2014090990353

For all the accusations of Bullying and Bluster, it seems that Mr Salmond is by far the biggest culprit of all:

Alex Salmond: Meet the bully behind the mask

What a total pillock - is this who the Scots would seriously consider leading them into independence?

You posted this nonsense in the other thread, if offering sweets to a journalist and evading questions (he's a politician) is the worst people can throw at him. FFS it hardly makes him Pol Pot.

Meanwhile he is the only leader in the UK that actually achieved a majority in a recent election

FFS it hardly makes him Pol Pot.

More like Bertie Bassett.

Boom! I did a funny 😉

Meanwhile he is the only leader in the UK that actually achieved a majority in a recent election

Not only that. He did it in an electoral system specifically designed so that that could never happen! You can say what you like about him. And it'd doubtless all be true. But he's the shrewdest politician in the UK by a country mile, and he's been running rings around everyone in Westminster for years!! Hence their frustration, and his monumental smugness

What tyres for leaping Hadrian's Wall in Steve McQueen Great Escape style? (From England to Free Scotland.)

See, this is another thing that worries me. Hadrian's wall is actually quite far into England. So will there be a long running and bitter border dispute over who gets half of Newcastle?.

Or do we turn England north of the Wall into some kind of Korean style DMZ?

Dammit, are we having the independence discussion over on here too?

@aracer I read the comment from AS in the Guardian I think

@bigjim, just make sure you get a mortgage in the same currency as the house, if Scotland goes to a pegged currency don't get a GBP mortgage.

If you're not already, you have to follow Angry Salmond on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond/media

See, this is another thing that worries me. Hadrian's wall is actually quite far into England. So will there be a long running and bitter border dispute over who gets half of Newcastle?.

It's going to be a pain in the arse if I need a passport to get from our office to our office bike shed. At least the majority of my ride home is on one side of the border.

Roast swan for all..

Of the roughly 50% who are in the "NO" camp, it seems there are some common themes:
1. Removal of savings from Scottish banks into English ones.
2. Plans being made to either sell up and move south of the wall, or simply to keep existing home (if prices tank) as a second home.

Bertie Bassett is a top hat wearing relic of English imperialism.

If its a Yes vote, I wonder how long it will be before some people (buses, small business etc) start rejecting Scottish notes........ My money is on not long 🙂

Mind you, it will still be easier than trying to use Northern Irish money anywhere outside of Ireland.

There may be a bitter and protracted dispute over who gets Noocassle, but with a relatively stronger bargaining position I'm sure Westminster can force Scotland to take it all.

Assuming there is a yes vote, I can see England going through something a bit like the opposite of the five stages of grief.

1. Euphoria

Hooray, we finally got rid of those whinging scots.

2. Anxiety

Oh shit… what about the oil.

3. Bargaining

Err… you know we said you couldn't share the pound?

4. Anger

Well f*** you then, you go and be independent, but don't come running back when it all goes wrong

5. Denial

Scotland? Who are they?

If you're not already, you have to follow Angry Salmond on Twitter:

😀

Brilliant

An interesting poimnt to note; we are not a 'united kingdom' when it comes to concessionary bus passes. English passes can't be used in Wales or Scotland.

Well you lucky Scottish buggers! PMQ's is cancelled tomorrow for Dave, Ed, and Nick to come up and see you all instead. That should definitely swing it.....

for Alex.

That motley Westminster crew, with associated hangers-on, should help the undecided's recoil in horror and vote Yes! They really don't get it at all, do they? The best thing they could have done was just shut the **** up! But then they are politicians. 🙄

you should stage a coup, Binners.

Cameron's actually played it very well so far, he's been smart enough to just snipe from a distance and avoid being a central figure in the debate. Whatever else he is, he's an exceptional player, if he comes to Scotland now there's a good reason. Perhaps they feel that the people he puts off are already voting Yes.

Part of me wonders if he's now preparing for a yes vote- being the unionist who lost the union is probably the end of his career but if he can at least say "Look, I went to Scotland, I fought the fight!" maybe he can mitigate that and avoid looking like he fiddled while Rome burned.

Cameron's toxic and he knows it. I wonder if the plan now is to manage the defeat - coming up here has the double benefit of sealing the deal for Yes and showing people down south that he tried his hardest.

God I envy the Scots. They have the opportunity to cast off the Westminster mob and their puppetmasters in the City of London/Square mile.

Don't waste it!