Scots each receive almost £1,300 more public spending than the English

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10692466/Scots-each-receive-1300-more-spending-despite-oil-tax-drop.html

Do you only read the torygraph, or do you sometimes add the Times for a bit of balance?

Maybe you could look at it (as I and lots of others up here do) that successive westminster governments, of all colours, have prioritised London and the the South East, to the total exclusion of everybody else

you could also look at it the other the way, the south east produces more per head and generates more revenue through tax (income, stamp duty, VAT, corporation tax etc) and that money goes to the rest of the U.K. helping the obese and liver damaged live longer and keeping the great unwashed ****less idle work shy layabouts in fags, booze and sky sports subscriptions.

🙄

You could, but apparently it's patronising condescending twoddle.

Do you only read the torygraph, or do you sometimes add the Times for a bit of balance?

Nah just googled, 'tis easy you should try some balance.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/public-spending-per-head-in-scotland-revealed-1-3197170

A 'yes' vote will affect the rest of the UK massively for the next 15 years or so due to the existing infrastructure. Scotland won't suddenly become independant and the rest of the UK taxpayers will continue to bail them out financially for years to come irrespective of oil revenue. Salmond knows this and it is the only way he could possibly afford his idyll of Brigadoon.

Nah just googled, 'tis easy you should try some balance.

Looking at that figure in isolation is hardly balanced!

Well I find it interesting, not news though as it's always been this way.

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04033.pdf

Maybe you could look at it (as I and lots of others up here do) that successive westminster governments, of all colours, have prioritised London and the the South East, to the total exclusion of everybody else. Nobody else's interests even figure on the radar when setting policy. We're just meant to suck it up! .

In good news though; currency traders are presently making a killing on Sterling. Every cloud eh?

firestarter - Member

I think the majority in England will just be glad when its over. Im sick of bloody seeing it in the news

@mudshark - that approach has been rubbished so many times recently. Resources in England cost less per capita becuase they've got 10 times the population.

HS2 for example - how wouyld that central spending including Scottish tax contributions benefit Scotland?

@ Mr Smith - Corporations and other wealth generating initiatives in the UK have favoured the SE for so long that it has resulted in the massive gulf in economic circumstances. Finance is London's big industry, successive governments, after the collapse of heavy industries failed to redress this leaving Northern England, Wales and Scotland without meaningful investment.

jambalaya - Member
@digga, Sterling hit 1.73 vs USD recently, far higher than it's been in the past 5 years

Cable is already taking a clobbering, it'll get even more stick on a decisive YES.

IMHO, Carney would be compelled to react, no matter what the effect of higher rates might be on the overall econmy, in order to avoid imported inflation. It would be unlikely to be desireable to let sterling fall too far. Already it's at 1.61 today: http://www.poundsterlinglive.com/usd/1541-dollar-rate-today-conversion-rates-vs-pound-and-euro-534543

From the Guardian this morning. Bad news all round for companies either based in or with links to Scotland.

[i]Nearly £4bn has been wiped off the value of FTSE 100 companies with strong links to Scotland, writes Nick Fletcher, Guardian columnist and writer of the Market Forces column.

Lloyds Banking Group and Royal Bank of Scotland have taken the biggest hits, down £1.6bn and £1.14bn respectively after weekend polls showed the yes vote taking a lead ahead of next week’s referendum.

In more bad news for the UK government, which wants to keep the union intact, the fall in the two banks means the value of the taxpayer’s stake has dropped by £786m.

Elsewhere electricity group SSE has lost £351m, Standard Life £296m, Babcock International - which employs 4,750 people in Scotland and recently warned independence could lead to job losses - has seen £190m knocked off its market value, pumps maker Weir has dropped by £119m and Aberdeen Asset Management by £59m.[/i]

You're missing the point. The present economy is the result of decades with all the parties being London centric, in thrall to the banking sector, and absolutely shackled to a certain narrow neo liberal economic model. This has benefitted a certain part of the economy to a ridiculous degree. The parts of the country this economic model didn't suit, were ignored, then just abandoned to their fate. With devastating results in places!

My point is that given a modicum of independence, and the ability to unshackle itself from this rigid, narrow economic model, then other parts of the economy would be in considerably better shape. Its not a case of looking at economics purely as they now are, but how they [i]could[/i] be given a different form of governance. This applies to social policy too. As Scotland is presently demonstrating

THIS is what a lot of Scots are (very sensibly IMHO) voting Yes too. And I'd bloody love the chance for the North to go the same way

@digga well that would make our exports cheaper. You cannot hold up a currency with interest rate changes if there has been a shift in fundamentals.

mudshark - that approach has been rubbished so many times recently. Resources in England cost less per capita becuase they've got 10 times the population.

Rubbished? Point is a separate Scotland will have to pay that money itself - maybe the oil money will cover that for decades to come.

binners - Member

You're missing the point..............

Binners, it's pointless.

They know this to be true, but they genuinely don't care how other people live.
They care purely for themselves.

There is no such thing as society anymore........

In good news though; currency traders are presently making a killing on Sterling. Every cloud eh?

He's withdrawn millions of pounds of benefits, food banks have increased, the NHS is being sold off and staff haven't had pay rise beyond 1% since he came into power and that's just for starters. Losing Scotland no one cares about.

Let me fix that for you...

He's [s]withdrawn millions of pounds of benefits[/s] [i]reduced benefits slightly and still to a level that when adjusted for inflation is much higher than they were under Labour in 2002[/i], food banks have increased [i]at a lower rate than under the last government[/i], the NHS [s]is being sold off[/s] has received year on year budget increases despite Labour saying at the last election they wouldn't commit to that and staff [s]haven't had pay rise beyond 1% since he came into power[/s] [i]have received 1% [b]plus [/b]their annual length of service awards over a period when other sectors experienced mandatory wage cuts and redundancies[/i] and that's just for starters. Losing Scotland no one cares about.

The great neighbour 10 times our size dominates policy and news.

No. The economic and political centre of YOUR COUNTRY dominates policy. As for news, hardly. Yes there's a lot about Westminster, but that's because it's where YOUR COUNTRY is run from, so of course it would.

To get back to the original question:

[b]The effect of a Scottish Yes vote on the rest of the UK?[/b]

Somewhatslightlydazed’s prediction is:

Nothing much at first. It will take years to define what both sides mean by “independence” and then to seperate the two countries both legally and economically. By then, times will have changed and people may find they do not like whatever version of independence our leaders have lumbered us with.

Meanwhile the Tories will have won another general election and rUK will get Cameron’s promised referendum on the EU. A fit of anti-Scottish and anti-European sentiment will sweep aside any logic and rUK will spend years trying to unpick 3 decades of social and economic legislation that have bound us to Europe. And again, when its too late, people will start wondering if this was such a good idea.

Whatever happesn, don't go holding your breath waiting for the great leap forward, whatever side of the border you live on.

I think 'Labour' will unelectable for a generation until Blair and Brown's legacy has faded.

Right now, without Scotland, Labour would only be three seats short of a majority. Enough to hang a parliament with the Lib Dems, Greens and independents.

If someone like David Milliband was running the show, they'd be out in front.

The cult of the individual, isn't it?
If you discredit the idea of collective good and promote the idea of the self above all else, then this is the consequence.

This +1, when you have the conservatives espousing rampant individualism and UKIP espousing rampant nationalism this is the logical consequence. Look forward to seeing the Welsh leave as well. It's going to be fun watching the right **** the country up even more whilst bleating about labours overspending. At least they didn't preside over the dissolution of the country.

I suspect a break from Scotland may also be one of the first steps towards the UK leaving Europe as those political parties who lean to the right will end up with a greater majority over Labour and the Lib Dems.

Which will lead to the demise of the UK's financial sector, discourage foreign investment in the country and land us unable to deal with an ageing population. Meanwhile we will still have to listen to EU regulations. But the right will still claim it a victory for Engerrrland!

people may find they do not like whatever version of independence our leaders have lumbered us with.

Are any of the bookies taking bets on that?

robdixon - not much 'fixing' as 'breaking' that I can see...

What is the date for splitting parliaments if they get a yes vote?

Will they get it done before the general election? That in itself will create some complication as if a government is formed based on UK MPs then the Scottish parliament splits we will need another election if the majorities are not maintained.

When the NE was considered for devolution type systems years ago they turned it down. I still think it would be the wrong thing to do. Yes you get more local politicians who know the area better but they are still politicians and I would imagine you would just creat more layers of beaurocracy.

No - not before 2016.

The term 'zombie MPs' was used in the media today, which amused me. Are there any other kind?

[i]Meanwhile the Tories will have won another general election[/i]

Will be a first since 1992...

An iS will kill Cameron's career deader than roadkill. If the Scots vote yes, he may as well go straight to the Queen. Next UK govt will be Lab/Lib Dem. coalition.

When the NE was considered for devolution type systems years ago they turned it down. I still think it would be the wrong thing to do. Yes you get more local politicians who know the area better but they are still politicians and I would imagine you would just creat more layers of beaurocracy.

Indeed. It was rejected in the North West for the same reasons. It was blatant tokenism. It would have involved creating a load more bureaucracy, another load of parasitic politicians. As far as actually devolving any real power from Whitehall, some actual decision making, that was never being offered. That would be kept firmly down in London.

If there was any actual political will to genuinely allow communities to make their own decisions, they could easily do it without creating new authorities. But they don't want to do that. And fight it at every turn. Thats why we're seeing blind panic now, and essentially the offer of the Devo Max that Salmond wanted in the first place, but which Westminster rejected out-of-hand. All of a sudden its on the agenda as the possible least worst option. But look how far its gone to the wire before they would countenance it.

Britain is the most centralised economy in the developed world. London is virtually an independent City State. But its an Independent City State who's economic policy, set to serve its own interests exclusively, is having a massively detrimental effect on the rest of the nation.

And right now that isn't healthy for anyone. Not even the South East. Its experiencing a recovery that is propelling house prices into the stratosphere, while the rest of the countries economy stagnates, or in places, carries on to shrink further. Does anyone think this is a good thing? Apart from London Estate Agents, and landlords?

Its in the interests of everyone to devolve power to the regions. Even the South East. But those who control the levers, want to keep the status quo, as themselves and their friends are the very few clear winners

An iS will kill Cameron's career deader than roadkill. If the Scots vote yes, he may as well go straight to the Queen. Next UK govt will be Lab/Lib Dem. coalition.

Could be good for Royal Mail, they can split in two and the universal service obligation for Scotland will go to Scottish-Mail, which will improve profitability for Mail-rUK.

The 'no' camp, particularly the Tories, really just don't get this at all, do they?

The London Mayor, over-privelidged Tory Toff, and all round Bullingdon bell end has just been on the radio. Essentially telling uppity oiks north of the border that they are destroying the Union, and therefore are very very naughty indeed, and should just bally well do as they're told!

I'm sure that'll help matters Boris. Alex Salmond must be loving it! watching the polls shift every time another one of them opens their mouth. They're doing his job for him

I'm laughing at the comments about the power balance being right due to the south east being much more prosperous and having to bail out the rest of the country. That's the whole bloody point! Do you think we in the north like living off the coat tails of our wealthy brethren in the south? There was a time in this country in the not too distant past where the northern working class had pride in their work, their communities, and their collective ability to be self-dependent. That's now been replaced by benefits-dependence, drink and drug addiction, crime, anti-social behaviour, obesity, celebrity envy and a general culture of hating your fellow humans. Is it any wonder that they might look to alternatives to the London-based government which has put them in this position?

Is it any wonder that they might look to alternatives to the London-based government which has put them in this position?

That's a gigantic oversimplification.

The North (and South Wales and wherver else) was based on heavy industry and manufacturing. That was ALWAYS going to be moved to other countries because they can simply do it cheaper. It was inevitable, that's got nothing to do with government policy. The only way round that is protectionism, and that never a good idea.

I haven't read the whole thread but;

The average temperature for the rest of the UK will increase if Scotland leaves it.

So I think they owe it to us English to give us warmer summers by leaving.

brooess - Member

Who knows?
Some companies currently based in Scotland have already announced they'll be moving out if there's a Yes vote - Standard Life and Bank of Scotland being 2 significant examples.

Ah, this is the thing where you say something untrue in one thread, get corrected, then just retreat from that thread and post it again in another thread hoping to avoid being picked up? Bonzer. Neither company has said they'll move out if there's a Yes vote.

The North (and South Wales and wherver else) was based on heavy industry and manufacturing. That was ALWAYS going to be moved to other countries because they can simply do it cheaper. It was inevitable, that's got nothing to do with government policy. The only way round that is protectionism, and that never a good idea.

We're not stupid FFS!! We realise this! Its not about economic policy. Its about humanity. Or the lack of it!

Its the way it was done! Communities were decimated!!!! They were simply abandoned to their fate by central government. With the consequences listed above. And did anyone even notice in London? Did they *!!! Michael Heseltine was a single voice raised that this was absolute stupidity!!! But was he listened too? Again... was he *!! As long as the Champagne kept flowing in The City, then all was at one with the world.

So why the hell wouldn't you vote for independence from a system that has treated you with nothing but contempt for decades, and has been absolutely indifferent to the social problems created, wilfully blind to peoples suffering, purely pursuing policies that further enrich those who never suffered any ill effects from this monumental shift in the economy in the first place?

Its an absolute no brainer, to me. I can't even believe its this close! Why you'd want to hang on to an utterly bankrupt system. It'd be like the woman who sticks around in an abusive marriage. Getting a kicking every night when he gets in from the pub, but won't leave....

That was ALWAYS going to be moved to other countries because they can simply do it cheaper.

And that's not also a massive simplification? Even accepting this was inevitable, which I don't, then the primary responsibility of any government should have been to cushion the blow and manage that change in a way that would cause the least possible harm to those affected and the country at large in both the short and long term. What happened to northern industries in the 80/90s was not a government reacting to economic events, but the result of carefully considered, and efficiently implemented government policy.

primary responsibility of any government should have been to cushion the blow

Of course. But it's not really right to blame the loss of industry on Westminster, which is what you were appearing to do.

The thing is binners, despite your heart-felt political beliefs, do you [i]really[/i] believe that things will be better for Scottish residents, especially those resident outside the southern belt, after a 'yes' vote?

Or will Edinburgh (or maybe Glasgow?) replace London and the southern belt replace the SE? I don't personally think that Utopia is even what Salmond is offering but it is what some believe they are being offered.

Do you mean the central belt? I can't see Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders becoming the new Kent :p

I keep hearing claims from No voters that all the Yes voters are expecting Utopia. I'm not, and I haven't seen anyone else claim that. We all know it'll be a gradual process to change things for the better but you've got to start somewhere.

Peston says companies will move, he knows stuff....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29103437

The thing is binners, despite your heart-felt political beliefs, do you really believe that things will be better for Scottish residents, especially those resident outside the southern belt, after a 'yes' vote?

I'll be honest with you, if it was me, I'd just be thinking that, whatever happens, Scotland can't be worse served than they have been by successive Westminster governments. There are a lot of unknowns, and Alex Salmond is a slimy little twerp, but looking at the alternatives.....

When Blair hollowed out the Labour Party, and turned it into Tory-lite, there ended even the remotest pretence that the political establishment gave a toss about Scotland, Wales, the north... anywhere outside London and the South East

If I was offered an alternative, I think I'd be prepared to give it a shot. Its not like the no campaign can turn around and list the multitude of examples in which London Centric Neo Liberal policies have benefitted people in Glasgow, is it? Because they've benefited no-one outside the M25. The rest of the country is in ... what was Thatchers term about the North... 'Managed Decline'

But it's not really right to blame the loss of industry on Westminster, which is what you were appearing to do.

I'm not 'appearing' to do that, I am! Like I said, it wasn't inevitable that British industry was uncompetitive, it was a result of government policy, and the adversarial industrial relations of the time. You think Germany and France didn't subsidise their industries? The main difference was that they saw subsidies as investment, rather than handouts. It's ironic because those subsidies in the 80s which were deemed to be unaffordable are now a subsidy of the formerly-working class (or underclass if you like, although I hate that phrase) in the form of benefits.

Anyway, back on the subject of Scotland, I posted this on the other thread, but if you look at the independence question from the other way round, it's a complete no-brainer - [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland ]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland[/url]

I'll be honest with you, if it was me, I'd just be thinking that, whatever happens, Scotland can't be worse served than they have been by successive Westminster governments. There are a lot of unknowns, and Alex Salmond is a slimy little twerp, but looking at the alternatives.....

So the primary argument is that we need change, this is a change, let's do it?

When Blair hollowed out the Labour Party, and turned it into Tory-lite, there ended even the remotest pretence that the political establishment gave a toss about Scotland, Wales, the north... anywhere outside London and the South East

Hmm yes, but would he have been elected had he not done this?

if you look at the independence question from the other way round, it's a complete no-brainer -

Yes, Monbiot having an opinion on something does make the decision a lot easier...

it wasn't inevitable that British industry was uncompetitive, it was a result of government policy

Don't agree - it was inevitable that the industry needed restructuring away from unskilled and towards higher skilled. Now I dont have figures but I think there is still a lot of manufacturing in the North and it's probably a lot higher value than it used to be.

But Molls the increase in high skilled manufacturing jobs in the North has taken place DESPITE government policy, not because of it.

After the crash, what was the first thing the Tories did on arriving in office? They abolished the regional development agencies. I don't think you could possibly have sent out a clearer message about the place of 'the Regions' in the grand scheme of things. They couldn't give a toss!

Take Burnley, for example. After the mass redundancies from BAE in Preston, they tried to keep the highly paid, skilled engineering jobs in the area by effectively acting as a bank, and encouraging hi-tech manufacturing to either set up, or expand, with grants, loans etc. Completely independent of central government. And its worked. Its been phenomenally successful, encouraging massive investment in the area. Particularly in Engineering. There was a southern Tory MP talking about this on 5 Live. He actually referred to this as being tantamount to communism!!!! Seriously! You couldn't make it up!!!

This is what devolved power could do with the right people, and some imagination, and knowledge, from people with the interests of their region at heart. I'd take a chance with this every time, as opposed to whatever unworkable, idealogical cobblers just emerged from some clueless right wing westminster think tank this week

If the Scots gain their independence can anyone tell me how long we in England will have to continue to put up with their bloody whining, 5 years, 10, 20?

If the Scots gain their independence can anyone tell me how long we in England will have to continue to out up with their bloody whining, 5 years, 10, 20?

🙄

This is what devolved power could do with the right people, and some imagination, and knowledge, from people with the interests of their region at heart. I'd take a chance with this every time

Me too - I'd take the benefits of regional autonomy without as many of the risks. Aka devo max.

Let me clear this up - I am not defending government policy. I'm just questioning that they were responsible entirely for deprivation in the North.

Roll your eyes all you want, if the Scots want out, good on them let them have it. London this, South east that, you down south don't appreciate or care about us blah blah bloody blah. Like the vast majority of us down here are taking baths in asses milk and drinking champers for breakfast FFS. Nobody likes a whinger eh. Rather than change things in the framework of the UK go it alone, let us know how that works out for ya.

Braveheart was historically inaccurate by the way.

That was ALWAYS going to be moved to other countries because they can simply do it cheaper. It was inevitable, that's got nothing to do with government policy.

I seem to remember that this was a result of Government policy. In '79 and '83 the nation had the choice of this or withdrawl from the EU, trade tariffs and a semi planned economy. (At least I think thats what labour wanted at the time.)

The only way round that is protectionism, and that never a good idea.

That's what 30 years of a market economy would have us belive. Some of us may be better off materially, but has it made Binners, or our friends in Scotland any happier?

If the Scots gain their independence can anyone tell me how long we in England will have to continue to put up with their bloody whining, 5 years, 10, 20?

Roll your eyes all you want, if the Scots want out, good on them let them have it. London this, South east that, you down south don't appreciate or care about us blah blah bloody blah. Like the vast majority of us down here are taking baths in asses milk and drinking champers for breakfast FFS. Nobody likes a whinger eh. Rather than change things in the framework of the UK go it alone, let us know how that works out for ya.

Braveheart was historically inaccurate by the way.

Oh the irony.

EDITED: thought better of being mean 🙂

Braveheart was historically inaccurate by the way.

You sure, I've seen statues and all that look just like him.....

[img] [/img]

😀

Shouldn't there be some kind of Iron Bru offering at the base of that statue?

And yes I appreciate I was whinging but for f sake. Alex Salmond is a **** surely the scots can see that much?

They're not voting for Alex Salmond though, are they? Or anyone else. He's frankly incidental*. They're voting for independence. Thats far bigger than any person, or party.

* though I wouldn't dispute your description

Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling!
Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!
The dead rising from the grave!
Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!
And Binners being the voice of reason. Truly these are the end times

We all know what's coming after independence though:

[img] [/img]

Next up...

[img] [/img]

I think you should check with Alex. Apparently a yes vote is a vote for him, a vote which gives him a mandate. At least I'm fairly sure that's what he was saying recently.

There should be some sort of warning before posting that sort of thing!

This seems more like a teenager that's going off to uni but on their dads ticket and calling it independence. Where are they going to raise capital, what about the NHS, their pensions deficit etc etc etc. This is a poorly thought through, emotional decision. They are going to end up at the station and realise they havent the cash for a ticket or the rent.

If they go they should go 100% but that's never going to happen is it.

Well it's the end of my country, the UK, not even Hitler could do that!

I think you should check with Alex. Apparently a yes vote is a vote for him, a vote which gives him a mandate. At least I'm fairly sure that's what he was saying recently.

It doesn't really matter what he thinks though. He's there until the next election, then its all up for grabs again. Thats the problem with democracy, that even Alex Salmonds ego can't get around

Though I can imagine how he'd start acting after a yes vote....

[img] [/img]

This seems more like a teenager that's going off to uni but on their dads ticket and calling it independence

Isn't that what Scotland has now? Spend your pocket money how ever you life but we'll tell you how much you get and why.

not even Hitler could do that!

Oops...

Where are they going to raise capital, what about the NHS, their pensions deficit etc etc etc.

That's exactly the type of arrogant hubristic complacency which will result in them voting yes. It's like a particularly nasty teacher at school telling you you'll never amount to anything. The funny thing is that this is exactly what the government and other no campaigners are doing and then they wonder why they're losing the argument!

Life expectancy's lower so less of a pension issue.

That's exactly the type of arrogant hubristic complacency which will result in them voting yes. It's like a particularly nasty teacher at school telling you you'll never amount to anything. The funny thing is that this is exactly what the government and other no campaigners are doing and then they wonder why they're losing the argument!

Yup damn people telling them to think about practical things and not make emotional decisions.

Message for joolsburger

aracer - Member

I think you should check with Alex. Apparently a yes vote is a vote for him, a vote which gives him a mandate. At least I'm fairly sure that's what he was saying recently.

Oh go on, give us some examples.

I wonder how many people there are who have not registered and are just planning on showing up.

"Aye but, yes, but..."

To me, the whole yes/no thing's just a dreadful **** up. A huge diversion of resources that could be better employed on a multitude of other tasks.

It's a fantasy, the construction of an unctuous little egomaniac. It will be an utter mess if the Yes vote wins; bed for England but, sadly, even worse in for Scotland I believe.

AS is not so stupid as to say a Yes vote is a vote for him. However he is currently First Minister so he'll be in charge until the next election.

To me, the whole yes/no thing's just a dreadful **** up. A huge diversion of resources that could be better employed on a multitude of other tasks.

It's a fantasy, the construction of an unctuous little egomaniac. It will be an utter mess if the Yes vote wins; bed for England but, sadly, even worse in for Scotland I believe.

Yes, asking a country to decide on something so trivial as its independence is a diversion of resources that could be better employed elsewhere. You sound like Boris.

rene 59, ah bless you, you little scamp. It must be difficult to talk with the grown ups.

@peter, it's a diversion of resources for the rest of the UK who are mostly losing. I think this will be a factor in the negotiations as the UK has little incentive to agree to much as it's all overhead for little benefit

Who's stupid idea was it to give them a choice? Honestly if any of us had a vote wether to be governed by the ****s we have these days, we'd all vote for something different, but honestly do we want a flag like this?
[img] [/img]

digga - Member

It's a fantasy, the construction of an unctuous little egomaniac.

Yup, he travelled back in time to 1934, 20 years before his birth, to create the SNP. Salmond's an eminently punchable man but it's completely absurd to suggest that the campaign towards independence over generations is all about him. I think you might be surprised the number of supporters for independence who think he's a ****. But even we have to concede that he's been a hugely effective ****.