Right to vote. Just listened to an economics conference call and the host (a Scot resident in the UK) was asked why people with Scottish heritage living outside Scotland could not vote and his answer was;
[i]There are some 50m people outside Scotland who could trace their roots back to Scotland either by their birth or by their parents or grandparents. In my view the vast majority of these people would vote No not least as they value their British passport. As such it is no surprise that the Scottish parliament dominated by the SNP did not invite them to do so.[/i]
So the only reason to not give votes to people whose only link to Scotland is their grandparents, is SNP bias? I think your man might well be insane.
@northwind
I agree people with tenuous links to Scotland shouldn't be allowed to vote, but people born there should be.
I can definitely see the argument... But trouble is, it boils down to this. People in this thread are saying "I'm scottish, I don't live there but I might do again in future, so I should be able to influence it". But that amounts to saying "I should have the same influence on a country I don't live in, as someone who does". If you depersonalise it- apparently there are 800,000 ex-pats, what proportion will return to Scotland in the forseeable future? Or ever? Why should the ones who won't, be able to have such a profound impact on the lives of those who're there right now?
Basically, there's always a line in the sand somewhere, I think even if you disagree with where it was drawn, you probably have to admit that there are good arguments in favour too.
But that amounts to saying "I should have the same influence on a country I don't live in, as someone who does". If you depersonalise it- apparently there are 800,000 ex-pats, what proportion will return to Scotland in the forseeable future
I agree, it's a bollocks argument. Sure, as an ex-pat you might want to have a vote but there's no way you can build a rational case for one. You gave up that right when you left these shores.
I should have the same influence on a country I don't live in, as someone who does
Which is exactly what happens in current UK GEs. The interesting issue is that they don't get a vote on their own disenfranchisement.
So the only reason to not give votes to people whose only link to Scotland is their grandparents, is SNP bias? I think your man might well be insane.
He didn't say it was the only reason. I think it's a very deliberate ploy to give a core to 16-18 yr olds, a deliberate ploy by the SNP to bolster it's own vote based upon its perception that the young will be more likely to vote yes. It is most bizarre to me that those born in Scotland but living in the UK or on an international assignment don't get to vote.
The document linked to by aracer means in the eyes of the (potential) Scottish Government:
Everyone living in Scotland will be Scottish Citizens.
Everyone born in Scotland will be Scottish Citizens.
that's not what it says.
My understanding is my British passport will remain valid until it expires, luckily it's quite new.
you are confusing citizenship with a passport (which is a bit of paper that evidences citizenship).
The interesting issue is that they don't get a vote on their own disenfranchisement.
they're not being disenfranchised.
In my view the vast majority of these people would vote No not least as they value their British passport.
this is nonsense because: a) such people would not lose citizenship of the UK if they had it and b) people are not entitled to UK citizenship merely because one of their grandparents was a UK citizen.
But I bet they'll be welcome to contribute tax to the new Scotland even if they were refused a vote.
sure - if they actually show up in Scotland again. but none of the people who live outside Scotland carping about not having a vote in the referendum have said that's happening.
what don't these people understand? they left the choice to leave Scotland and to stop being full members of the Scottish political community. they don't work or live there any more (if they ever did). life's going on without you and you can't expect to be consulted about things that happen in your absence just because you might think about going back one day.
I said it earlier but the reading of the Yes mob on claiming citizens is still nothing more than a policy idea. It's probably one of the ones that will get challenged in courts both sides of the border and I'd be surprised if anyone ended up with a forced change. Especially if the UK offered them the chance to remain.
jambalaya - MemberI think it's a very deliberate ploy to give a core to 16-18 yr olds, a deliberate ploy by the SNP to bolster it's own vote based upon its perception that the young will be more likely to vote yes
People keep saying that but 16-18 was and remains a group which the evidence says will vote No, in fact it's one of the most decisive no groups- one poll suggests 21% yes to 60% no. So you get left with a few choices...
1) The SNP just guessed that young voters would vote Yes. No chance in hell, there was public polling available and it requires the entire party to be constantly drunk for about 6 months.
2) The SNP was convinced that they could turn this around and get them to vote Yes. Possible, but a bit farfetched- it's a huge change in intent that's required.
3) My mum's theory- the SNP expected to lose, so was planning for the next step of neverendum, hoping that these kids would remember that they were given the vote this time, and vote Yes next time. Seems pretty absurd
4) The SNP just thought they should have the vote, since nobody's got more to gain or lose than the young, and since they're able to join the army, get married, leave school, etc etc. Pay tax, "no taxation without representation".
Bill Ockam says it's 4. Any I've missed?
they're not being disenfranchised.
In the event of a Yes vote, somebody who used to live in a Scottish constituency, but currently lives abroad will no longer get to vote in a UK GE. Has [s]the SNP[/s] yes Scotland given details of overseas voting rules? Though in any case, if for example those people are pensioners then they would no longer get a vote in a UK GE where policy is made on their pensions.
hell I hope we have the balls here in the rUK to stick it to them and make it as difficult as possible...
Very divisive the whole affair has been
Amazing it has been divisive with a fantastic attitude like that!
it requires the entire party to be constantly drunk for about 6 months.
Well that would certainly explain a lot 😉
I'd suspect that 3 is partly true in that they expected to lose and maybe there is some other reasoning behind it - it's pretty hard to believe 4 unless that is the case, not from a cynical political party.
Very divisive the whole affair has been
It's normally the way when separatist parties try and engineer a split. By it's very nature it's decisive.
Though if you do look a little further than the coastline it's fairly peaceful in comparison to some places
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[/img]It's a bit like comparing a winter storm with cyclones.
20 years ago the base supported many places when it was getting up graded. My folks run a guest house and base business is now limited to a few specialist contractors once or twice a year and occasional off site delivery of submarine parts collected by a man with a briefcase handcuffed to himself! VFR and tourists and returning trade makes up the bulk. The hotels might get the odd sailors gf but accommodation is all on site now.
In the event of a Yes vote, somebody who used to live in a Scottish constituency, but currently lives abroad will no longer get to vote in a UK GE.
they have nothing to whine about. they're still getting to vote in an election of a country in which they don't live.
what don't these people understand? they left the choice to leave Scotland and to stop being full members of the Scottish political community. they don't work or live there any more (if they ever did). life's going on without you and you can't expect to be consulted about things that happen in your absence just because you might think about going back one day
Agree with this. A friend who claims to be Scottish (Parents are Scots, he was born in Rochdale) is virulently No, claiming he will be 'stateless' if the vote is Yes (as I hope) he gets upset when I tell him he isn't Scottish and his voice is nullified 😆
This was quite interesting last night
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29164621
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not everyone who leaves UK leaves for good. lots "leave" to work for 1-2 years, often still employed by the same UK employer. is that even called leaving?
EU agreements allow you to do that within the EU but still paying social security back home and only tax where you reside, if your UK employer sends you overseas.
Strangely the only way I can (officially) have an influence on UK/Europe, as an EU citizen currently working in Europe, is to up sticks back home and be stuck on an island. Seriously tempted to see how far is acceptable to bend rules to get back on UK electoral register.
From June next year the only vote I'll have anywhere is that of the local city council (edit: if UK quit EU), without either going home or changing citizenship (edit: as the employee of a UK company, with half a working career's worth of NI paid there etc.). Thumbs up for EU integration there!
they have nothing to whine about. they're still getting to vote in an election of a country in which they don't live.
It makes no difference whether you think they're whining, they'd still be getting disenfranchised after a Yes vote.
It makes no difference whether you think they're whining, they'd still be getting disenfranchised after a Yes vote.
they're not being disenfranchised - they're still entitled to vote in the constituency. it's just they don't get to choose which country the constituency forms part of - the people who actually live there do.
they have nothing to whine about.
@andy, yes the French have taken this issue seriously with the creation of a special "MP" for expat French (400,000 in London for example). IMO the UK should do the same.
why?