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Scouts and Guides will take volunteer young leaders from 14 (obviously not volunteering with peer groups!) We give priority to our own members first, but DofE volunteers are handy for an extra pair of eyes and hands.
This is what No. 1 has done - she's aged out of Guides, but there's no local Rangers (partly due to COVID, partly due to volunteering issues mentioned above) so she's carried on as a young leader, and used this as her volunteering. This is slightly complicated by the presence of her sister as one of the guides.
TBF her uncle did similar when he was in Ventures and doing his Bronze.
My kids both did their volunteering at Cub packs. The lad, doing his Gold, has been there for 3 years now!
What’s the stove of choice for these kind of trips? When he did Bronze he reported that the stove was provided but by the time he got to use it (shared with the other groups on the same campsite) all the fuel was practically gone, fortunately he was reheating rather than cooking from scratch but keen to avoid the same issue this time by providing our own…
What's he planning on cooking?
What’s the stove of choice for these kind of trips? When he did Bronze he reported that the stove was provided but by the time he got to use it (shared with the other groups on the same campsite) all the fuel was practically gone, fortunately he was reheating rather than cooking from scratch but keen to avoid the same issue this time by providing our own…
What would make more sense is to provide with spare fuel for whatever they use! That’s kind of the whole point of the progression through the levels and practice expeditions - so they work these things out FOR THEMSELVES. DoE should provide amazing fodder for university / job interviews when someone asks about a time you reflected on an experience and made changes, or when things hadn’t worked as well as a team as you hoped etc.
Was about to say... He should bung a couple of cannisters in his bag. One to use and one to rent to the highest bidder.
Good point re spare fuel. I’m not sure what type it was. He says it was a liquid fuel.
My girls did the Bronze last year and they took portioned bags of pasta, some of those individual pots of tuna and some portioned bags of grated parmesan (doubtless a bit heavier than dehydrated food, but still pretty lightweight and packed down small.
Tidied up my son's MRE / Wayfarer that he had left on display on the dining room floor and noticed that the Wayfarer is DoE Approved. So that puts that one to bed. 
I used Vesta meals for my expeditions, but that was 30-odd years ago!
Eldest is mid-way through his bronze at the mo, they did a meal as a group on the test expedition and went with hotdogs so they just needed to boil them. Their biggest complaint was there wasn't enough so maybe they'll listen to us next time and take something more substantial on the proper one.
They still use Trangia's though so not a lot's changed in 30yrs.
Practice walk done yesterday, and managed not to get hopelessly lost so all good so far…
Thought i would weigh in on food etc after reading this
Stoves: trangias just work and are versatile. All stoves have compromises.
My menu for trekking:
Pasta and a stir in sauce for dinner.
Bread for the first days lunch. Oatcakes thereafter. Eaten with cheese and olives. Porage pots fot breakfast
Sweets chocolate nuts and dried fruit for snacks
Stove wise, speak to the award coordinator if you’re thinking of taking your own. Our association strongly advised against meths stoves after a few incidents of people trying to refill lit stoves. We replaced the burners in our trangias with gas conversions, and the resulting stoves were excellent if a bit heavy. We’d generally only get requests for alternative stoves at silver or hold by which point it was easier to check they new how to use their stove safely.
We’d always take spare fuel with us but if a group ran out we’d encourage them to ask the other groups if they had spare. If it happened on the practice I’d also be asking the group to think if they could manage their fuel use a bit better next time as well. It’s a good opportunity for a bit of teamwork but there’d always be a safety net if needed.
So the MHW Lumina arrived. It appears to be well made but extremely difficult to get it into the stuff sack despite putting the head end in first. Literally takes 2-3 mins of prodding down bit by bit with quite some effort. Once in, the compression straps hold it, but the draw string closure is no way going to do up. A bit rubbish really as a bigger bag is clearly necessary.
Literally just come back from 3 days Silver practise tabbing round Suffolk as a volunteer, my daughters school is a small rural Norfolk school, so bar one teacher (who is leaving in May due to redundancy and cut backs) it is run solely by parents and volunteers giving up time, a collection of 5 dads, a couple of us ex-military, a couple who got into it when their kids did it via the school and were good enough to qualify as assessors and carry on even when there kids had left and one that was new this trip.
We are now facing either having to outsource to a DofE company once the teacher goes, as no other wants to get involved, or the couple of us that have experience/ some MLTB quals but not DofE assessor status, go on and qualify out of our pockets and we set up ourselves as the schools DofE provider without any teacher input, which would be sad, we only have contact with the teenagers at weekends away, and we volunteer our time a couple of evenings to to teach navigation etc.. but don't have the experience and knowledge of them day to day (and all their foibles) that the teaching staff have.
Any other ideas?
On the Pot Noodle debate, they do make a nice bang and a real mess when they are mid-rucksack and they keep on stuffing stuff in!
Always amazed how some will bring 3 tins for each of the 3 days, then wonder why their kit weighs a ton, but the satisfying bit has always been seeing those that clearly find it difficult (and often want to cry off after day 1) carrying on, and coming back from Bronze to Silver.
Was discussing DofE with the kids yesterday, eldest has his Gold and his Scout group do the District DofE stuff, and daughter just has the Gold residential to do to finish.
Cost seems the biggest shocker. Eldests Scouts charge £30 for a Bronze or Silver expedition, £50 for Gold plus transport, as they usually head for Scotland.
They have a few private schools nearby charging £1000 for Gold - and also a concern that schools are signing off volunteering and physical challenges willy nilly.
Was going to ask what costs people are facing for d of e.
Ours was 300quid, for that you seem to get two practice 'expeditions', which are just half day walks in the hills with some kind of instructor teaching them how to read a map and navigate, how to cook/use stove, obviously it also includes the main expedition. It also includes the provision of a tent, stove, cooking gear for the trip itself.
We have had to buy the rucksack, clothes, sleeping bag, sleeping mat etc
We paid £64 each for the Silver practise and the assessment (practise in Suffolk and assessment to be in the Peaks) as above, they can borrow stove, tent from the school, but have to supply the rest, although we also have a small pool of personal kit we lend to teenagers that are without, and have managed to rustle up some boots, rucksacks etc for those that needed them. I like to think that we try and make it inclusive as possible.
They have a few private schools nearby charging £1000 for Gold - and also a concern that schools are signing off volunteering and physical challenges willy nilly.
I think No. 1’s school is charging £190 and seems to be taking it seriously.
Her cousin (church school) somehow managed to get playing for a sports club as his sport, training at the same club as his skill and volunteering there signed off, but it’s up to the assessor at the end of the day, isn’t it?
My lad finished his Gold Assessment hike about half an hour ago. 60km over 3 days on the hills north of Clitheroe. Strava would suggest that they set off early and were done by 2ish each day to avoid the afternoon sun.
Really proud of him!
This was done through college with outside assistance. Fee was £85 per expedition plus an admin charge that I paid when he enrolled. Which isn’t that much more than we paid for his Silver done through Explorers and supervised by volunteers.
His physical was covered by Karate, skills by guitar lessons and volunteering at a Cub Pack, but he also does service days at the district Scout camp.
My eldest ended up playing table tennis as his physical, simply because there were no other sports clubs locally on a night he was free.
Came in handy when he got to uni!
I spotted a couple of small groups of youngsters out walking with a lot of kit at the weekend...figured it was DofE stuff.
Great to see and a brilliant experience for them, hopefully it remains with them throughout their years.
Great to hear of expeditions being completed.
Feedback from his assessor... No problem with the MRE, but he did get pulled for having the tent lashed to the outside of his bag. Which is odd, because the tent is waterproof.
I spotted a couple of small groups of youngsters out walking with a lot of kit at the weekend...figured it was DofE stuff.
Great to see and a brilliant experience for them, hopefully it remains with them throughout their years.
Great to hear of expeditions being completed.
I was up round Castleton/Monsal/Calver area on Saturday, distinctive clumps of young folk under enormous rucksack looking like it was very much type 2 fun.
Credit to all who get through it.
but he did get pulled for having the tent lashed to the outside of his bag. Which is odd, because the tent is waterproof.
I don’t think there’s a hard and fast rule about that - but:
- does it mean too much unnecessary stuff in the bag?
- not sharing the load fairly in the whole group?
- the weight is not optimally placed in the bag (they put a lot of emphasis on this - but then 14 yr olds have a lot less to counterbalance them than me!)
- the tent is more vulnerable not just to rain, but branches tearing it, getting dropped etc.
so I can see why it might be discouraged.
Fair enough. No explanation was given to him though.
Anyway, his feet are a mess. Found out this morning that he'd "borrowed" my hiking socks and worn them for 3 days, despite them being 2 sizes too small.
Kids eh?... Smart enough to try for Oxford, but daft enough not to pack socks that fit.
Other than that he was fine. It got a bit competitive with one of the other groups. My lad's team were fastest on day 1, the others were fastest on day two, and it was a dead heat on day 3. Assessor said they were 15 minutes away from the record time.
Also, the 4G "sweet spot" at Waddecar campsite is in the loo block on the top field apparently.
My lad finished his Gold Assessment hike about half an hour ago. 60km over 3 days on the hills north of Clitheroe. Strava would suggest that they set off early and were done by 2ish each day to avoid the afternoon sun.
Well done H_T_S jnr.....
Of course a gold assessed expedition is 4 days, not 3 and requires 8 hours of planned activity each day. Most teams used all 8 hours journeying, but your goal can take up some of that time too (I've worked with groups that have done fishing as their goal and planned a route that went between lochs, and another that did painting). Though we measure by time not distance these days, the normal for a gold assessed exped is 85-100km give or take unless the route is particularly challenging or the group have specific needs. I'm guessing the 3 was a typo (unless it was silver, not gold - which is three 7hr days) and they did some of their goal in camp maybe......(or set off at 6am).
3 days. Some teams took 8 hours, but his and the other one with Explorers in it moved at speed.
This was the "qualifier". Kids didn't really know each other. Staff didn't know the kids.
4 days up in the Yorkshire Dales in July for the real deal.
Fair enough. No explanation was given to him though.just because there might be good reasons doesn't mean the person dictating the rules knows the good reasons!
interesting - have they given up trying to enforce no phones except emergencies?Also, the 4G "sweet spot" at Waddecar campsite is in the loo block on the top field apparently.
convert - its never been quite clear to me what happens if you planned 8 hours but found conditions better than hoped and did it in 7!
This was the "qualifier". Kids didn't really know each other. Staff didn't know the kids.
4 days up in the Yorkshire Dales in July for the real deal.
Ah - it's a terminology thing.
Your first post said his 'gold assessment'.
What your lad has just done in DofE terminology is his "Practice Expedition" - though the group might use another term for...reasons. Maybe because it 'qualifies' you to take part in the real one. The real deal is called the 'Assessed Expedition' (hence my confusion from your first post). 'Practice' does have a ring of 'nice thing to do to get ready if you have the time' about it rather than something you must do. On a practice, length of days are not judged particularly and there is no goal (apart from learning how to do independently). I was also (though didn't mention, for fear of coming over too critical) a touch concerned about the 'competition' with another group. Makes sense now - in the real deal they won't be camping or journeying close enough to have a competition with another group and the route should be their own so the idea of a record to beat won't be thing.
Also - there are no assessors on a practise expedition - just trainer/supervisors (though, if fully indoctrinated in DofE hyperbole, they will be both - but they were working as trainer supervisors in this situation). So the person talking about the tent on the outside of the bag was handing out advise not passing judgement. On the assessed exped, they will have a supervisor who'll be tracking them or in the vicinity remotely keeping an eye, and a separate assessor who has not been involved in their training that will meet them formally from time to time to assess their expedition (and hopefully hand out sweets, have a laugh and a joke, be encouraging and generally be nice and supportive - because that's what it's all about).
Anyway, good luck to him - hopefully they have learnt enough about themselves to plan a fun but challenging route in the Dales. The OS maps app and eDofE interaction is really good now, so the nause of route card generation is nothing like as painful as it used to be. Also, if he shared his OS log in details with his dad - his dad would get free maps until he leaves the scheme.....just sayin!
convert - its never been quite clear to me what happens if you planned 8 hours but found conditions better than hoped and did it in 7!
Yes, it's a grey area. Ultimately it's not the young people's fault - they proposed the route and their leader approved it. I've seen plenty of groups 'game' the system by slowing down the proposed walking speed and added suspiciously long breaks until Naismith's (it's all built in now) pops out the magic 8hrs on the route card. I've assessed groups in the past and visited them on night 1 or 2 and it's been obvious their route was way too easy for them. I've then challenged them to come up with a plan to either extend the next day's journeying or do something extra with their goal to make it more meaningful. Same the other way around - I've assessed groups that were shattered and clearly overstretched and discussed with the supervisor and the group how they could make the rest of the planned route more appropriate.
Worst I've seen was a group paddling on the River Wye that was swollen and running so fast that if they'd done the route on a lilo and not dipped a paddle in the water they'd still have been in camp early! In that case we put in place some impromptu walking from the campsites to explore the area and make the days more involving. Lengthening the days by paddling upstream would have been a cruel and unusual (and probably impossible!) punishment!
It wasn’t officially a competition, he happens to know a few of the kids from the other group and I can see how they would compare routes / strava data.
What you said was the assessor (sic- supervisor) said they were 15mins away from the record time. That implies they were following a well worn route given to them - which is totally fine for a practice. For the real deal, they should be planning their own route and for your lad's group it sounds like they are fit and strong and should be encouraged to challenge themselves to do something a bit punchy. But route planning something unique..........that's easier said than done in some locations where there is only one obvious choice. It's also possible to do a known route (like say paddling the Great Glen) so route choice is not really a thing then either.
What’s the guidance on stove use at the moment, given the fire risk?
Peak District National Park website suggests “no open fire or flame” and I’ve seen signs which state this includes stoves. Obviously if the campsite allows it, that’s one thing, but what are the kids being told about using stoves in the wild?
What’s the guidance on stove use at the moment, given the fire risk?
Peak District National Park website suggests “no open fire or flame” and I’ve seen signs which state this includes stoves. Obviously if the campsite allows it, that’s one thing, but what are the kids being told about using stoves in the wild?
Have just asked No. 1 and she’s under the impression they’re only going to be allowed to use them at the campsite but she’s doing Bronze. She also tells me they’ve got gas stoves which seems at odds with email from school saying Trangias, so…
Hmmm... Just checked and it would suggest a £2500 fine where I'm going on Saturday (Haworth). Going to have to re-think.
EDIT - Sandwiches for my lot on the Scouts Expedition this weekend whilst out on the moors. Stove skills to be demonstrated on a hard standing at the hostel.
EDIT EDIT - You can get gas conversions for Trangias.
What’s the guidance on stove use at the moment, given the fire risk?
Peak District National Park website suggests “no open fire or flame” and I’ve seen signs which state this includes stoves. Obviously if the campsite allows it, that’s one thing, but what are the kids being told about using stoves in the wild?
That's a good question. I suspect that *most* DoE groups in the PDNP actually use (semi-)official camp sites these days due to the advantages of toilets, water etc. So less of an issue. Having seen on the news some campers helo'd out of a fire area last weekend I imagine some risk assessments are getting updated! Generally DoE official policy has been pragmatic and flexible to deal with problems that arise - which weren't the young people's fault, so I would expect an assessor/supervisor to agree that if camping stoves are unsafe due to the wildfire risk that access to some church / scout / village hall / campsite kitchen / the assessor's van to stick stuff on a hob was a reasonable change of plan.
Chuck my thoughts in the ring having been through both Scouts and direct gold DoE as a kid and then 20 plus years of pondering the impact of the "rules and conventions" across University clubs and backpacking in USA, Canada, Europe.
OP food query - Our default is cheap 69p noodles, the ones that take 2mins to boil and you get to drink the broth. Child loves them and often requested them as tea at home as well. Various options for pimping dependent on time and effort, weekend we had the full evolved option. Boil up water and add dehydrated pea protein chunks (£4 for a bag that does 2 adults across 2 meals). Leave them to the side for about 20 mins. Reboil water for noodles, add noodle blocks and prechopped sugar snap peas, carrot, pepper and spring onion. 2 mins boil gives veg with an bite, but keep the pieces small. Add the pea protein back in with the flavor sachets and additional seasoning to taste, bit of chili flake and soy in this instance. We have done weekend trips with this as the evening meal, adding in veg gyoza on the first day (the frozen ones, they defrost but are ok first day) as they just need a bit of a boil to warm through. Keeps the cost much lower than packaged dehydrated meals but its not using massive amounts for fuel.
Porridge sachets for breakfast (and a couple of backups for hungry days) and lunch wraps.
Stoves - i've had all the advice listed above in the past, DoE liked Trangia, Scouts had terror stories of meths fires from refilling while lit, did all my expeditions with a pierceable canister camping gas stove and a borrowed trangia pan as they are light. If i was buying fresh for my child a £15 gas stove and a small pan from decathlon, vango, etc would be my choice. I often carry a MSR whisperlite with smallest possible petrol bottle these days as gas is expensive and i'm trying to minimize waste.
What does interest me is the range of advice on required minimal equipment and how this is applied across experience and activity. Completely get and understand making sure people have sufficient equipment and clothing to survive and be comfortable but i can't be the only one who has helped a group passing bags over stile and thought what in the hell are they carrying.
Fair play to all those on here who are assisting young people get into the outdoors in a responsible way
Completely get and understand making sure people have sufficient equipment and clothing to survive and be comfortable but i can't be the only one who has helped a group passing bags over stile and thought what in the hell are they carrying.
I'm pretty sure that many of them have had advice that they probably don't need ALL of that - sometimes the point a 14 yr old realises they may not know everything is about 4 miles into day 1! Although I dare say some of the supervisors will be products of the scheme themselves and may be passing on their expectations from 20-40 years before, from people who did it 20-40 yrs before that when lightweight technical fabrics etc didn't exist. And many a 14 yr old has a mother who thinks they are being helpful by packing extra stuff - just in case.
Completely get and understand making sure people have sufficient equipment and clothing to survive and be comfortable but i can't be the only one who has helped a group passing bags over stile and thought what in the hell are they carrying.
It's often a combination of cheap borrowed kit (no sane DofE provider would hand lightweight kit to a Bronze group) and inexperience. It's worth remembering that this can be some of the first time some of the kids have done anything like this so they are bound to bring useless stuff. It's absolutely part of the learning experience for them, and certainly for some kids no amount of advice is going to stop them from bringing their favourite four hoodies (or whatever) for the campsite.
She also tells me they’ve got gas stoves which seems at odds with email from school saying Trangias, so…
Very likely to be trangias with the gas covnersion kits. A bit heavy and bulky, but really stable and windproof. And most importantly quite hard for teenagers to break.
Daughter did her Bronze practice at the end of last month and now just back from Ten-Tors practice on Dartmoor. They were stopped by some independent assessors who apparently roam Dartmoor checking up on the various groups of young people. The students were carrying all their kit (tent, sleeping bag, food stoves etc), but the one thing the assessors wanted to see was their trowel, in case they got caught short.................
but the one thing the assessors wanted to see was their trowel, in case they got caught short.................
Ten Tors is an odd one. I reckon it would not get across the line as a new event if someone invented it today. 2500 kids plus adult volunteers all landing in one area all at the same time. That's a lot of turd potential! Obviously safety is THE priority, but I'd imagine the PR fallout of 'turdgate' in the weeks after the event could be enough to get it cancelled. There is a reason Outward Bound use 'poo tubes' when camping kids in areas they use week after week after week.
I do not want, or need, to know what a "poo tube" is. Ever.
Off on her practice hike this weekend. Apparently the catering option of choice is pasta pesto made communally.