Your likes, interest and how you think etc I understand but locational data? Think theres a bit of over thinking it going on here.
TINAS got it.
Imagine if you knew that people who drink at a pro-leave pub chain like Wetherspoons were more likely to vote for Boris. Then all you have to do is find out where their customers mainly live and then target that area with leaflets aimed at their ideals and morals. The areas where few people drink at Wetherspoons will fit some other demographic, say customers who shop at Morrisons, were more likely to be passionate about elderly care in the community. You can then send leaflets about that to them. Then another area where people who go to the local art house/theatre will respond to info about how you support the arts, send them leaflets that show you're good at that.
Use all of that over multiple areas and you have different areas and demographics voting for you for different reasons. You can pretty much tailor your national campaign to suit every local issue without alienating any others. For a working example see the Vote Leave campaign from a few years ago. Wonder who was behind that?
For a working example see the Vote Leave campaign from a few years ago. Wonder who was behind that?
Well exactly.
It is so easy to sit here and marvel at how so many people in the US cannot see that Trump is a disgrace an embarrassment and a real danger.
But a lot of those folks aren't the most adept at 'critical thinking' (obviously I could be unkind and remove the word 'critical' but I won't).
They do not seek out a second or third opinion and they do not sit down and watch the news at an appointed time like 'the good old days' - even if the US news scene is an absolute joke.
They are fed their own prejudices and hatreds back to them as 'news' via targeted media.
And we are nearly as bad here.
Seriously, how the **** does having location data (which already exists) on someone influence an election.
Your likes, interest and how you think etc I understand but locational data? Think theres a bit of over thinking it going on here.
As above what location data linked to a postcode has some very powerful applications. Politically, you will know which are the most sensitive seats. All parties will know that. With this info, you could easily (well not easily, but it's achievable) build a model to show how to maximise your advertising capability to your specific targets. Then, as above, you could maximise the impact of each one based on more localised trends. Opposition parties will not have this info so will be far less efficient.
TLDR; Politics is about getting the right message to the right people. The more you know about people, the easier that is.
I don’t buy the Cummings evil puppet master stuff, but I do have concerns about the way that the app is centralised and collects data.
I don’t have anything to hide, but my privacy is important to me. That’s why I make the choices that I do about the platforms and technologies I choose to use and not use.
The case is for the people developing and maintaining and overseeing the app to explain and reassure me about how the data I will provide be used, stored, and if ever deleted.
When there seems to be a solution provided, which a. Is more private and b. Probably more effective, the above communications need to be even more clear.
Once you give up your privacy it is hard to reclaim. If they want this to work, the government need to address these concerns.
It is so easy to sit here and marvel at how so many people in the US cannot see that Trump is a disgrace an embarrassment and a real danger.
But a lot of those folks aren’t the most adept at ‘critical thinking’ (obviously I could be unkind and remove the word ‘critical’ but I won’t).
Trump is, I think, the most incredible politician of our lifetime. Obviously a monster, but even so. And the mistake I think you make is believing it's only those short of critical thinking that are being manipulated.
and if ever deleted.
It won't be. You won't even be able to ask that it's deleted.
IMO what they actually want to do is have a nice UK map back at ukgov/PHE/NHS mission-control that displays where people are reporting symptoms and getting positive test results, i.e. a near real-time feed from the contact tracing app of where outbreaks may be happening so they can deploy resource. Very much dependant on decent takeup of the app, quick-result Covid tests in the post, the tech working etc.
Well yes, but as soon as you tell the app you ave symptoms it will need your address to send the home testing kit to. Or you'll go to a testing center and fill out a form.
Then the App can do it's job and ping those people you've been in contact with.
I'm guessing it won't tell people to self isolate just on the basis of someone they shared a buss with reporting a cough, it'll need to be a bit more concrete than that. Also, unless you ping all those people on the bus and get them tested you don't find out where the outbreak is anyway because you don't see all the asymptomatic people.
FWIW I've got relatives in a small town of ~14,000 in Canada, they had an outbreak, and within days had split the population into 3, those that were symptomatic, those that were likely exposed via contact tracing, and the low risk, and tested everyone in that order. So within days you know whether you need to be staying home or not and the town goes back to normal-ish because the outbreak is contained. That's how it should work.
Just like being on holiday in the US and using 90210 as a zipcode, we could presumably use a different postcode to sign up, just to keep the bastards on their toes...
I don’t have anything to hide
It's absolutely not about this. I think this is most definitely where the Tories will try and probably succeed to convince folk to use the NHS app, they'll say exactly this, and they'll be correct..But hugely disingenuous.
It's about putting folk into demographic groups to target information at the group level. Not even Cummings can target ads at an individual level (although Lord knows he'd love it if he could) . Your personal data isn't really at risk. But OUR data collectively; absolutely is.
Ironically it's a lot like the virus; the question isn't whether you as an individual are at direct risk; it's about the big picture and how everyone affects everyone else
Did a bit of digging, the location priv is necessary for Bluetooth LE. They should just be more transparent about it
I did wonder if it was that, the advantage the iOS/Android api has is it’s not going to panic people with the location permission as it’s a Covid permission.
I just think any app that triggers location permission messages in any permission requirement on installation isn’t sending the right message for a government app.
Suggestion here that they are now considering switching to the Apple/Google design.
https://twitter.com/tim/status/1258114036685844481
Turns out the existing app might actually work:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jasonkneen/status/1257790047715315718
And:
https://reincubate.com/blog/staying-alive-covid-19-background-tracing/
(Testing conducted on iOS)
So if they've got it going on Apple I imagine it does with Android.
Still, if they adopt the Apple/Google path after all I'll be much happier.
Good evening,
Thank you for continuing to tell us about your health daily. We are now 3 million strong and have some amazing accomplishments. As we start to come out of lockdown your continued support is going to be more critical than ever.
You’ve helped us to predict COVID hotspots, demonstrate to the government that lockdown was working, and identified loss of smell as a key new symptom of COVID. This week, we have agreed to support some important NHS research by adding a few new questions to the app.
An important update
Before we tell you about some of the new questions we’re asking, I wanted to let you know some news about our name.We are changing our name to the COVID Symptom Study. We do not follow you around and we felt the use of the word “Tracker” was causing confusion with apps that track and trace. We are a community of people working together to help save lives and support front-line NHS workers across the country. Through your continued daily reporting you are making a truly important contribution to understanding this terrible disease.
With your help, over 25 scientific papers are already being published which will help doctors and scientists globally to beat the disease. I hope that like me you are proud to be part of this. To discover more about what you are making happen, do visit the blog. We will update this each time we publish a new paper, and explain what has been discovered.
New Questions
We recently added an ethnicity question as you may have seen, which is aiming to try and answer the very important question of why people from ethnic minorities seem to be much worse hit by COVID. By understanding the science, we can enable action.Tomorrow we will add some new questions. We have been asked by NHS England if we can help them to understand why men are more at risk from COVID than women. We have therefore teamed up with NHS researchers Dr. Louise Newson and Professor Janice Rymer, who think that oestrogen may play a protective role in fighting COVID. To understand this better, we have added a few new questions in the app that we can then link to the unique symptoms that 3 million of you have been experiencing. These questions look at things like contraception and Hormone Replacement Therapies (HRT) that impact hormone levels.
We expect to add further questions in the future, as we continue to focus on how together, we can help save lives.
Tune into our webinar tomorrow at 5pm BST on YouTube to hear Dr. Louise Newson and Professor Tim Spector explain this groundbreaking research.
I look forward to sharing more news with you shortly. We have some very exciting things planned for next week, as we focus on how together we can get out of lockdown safely and hopefully faster.
Thank you again for your support.
Professor Tim Spector
Hopefully this helps persuade some people that this isn’t about politics.
It’s not the NHS app but the guys from here https://covid.joinzoe.com/
It could be something random like people who ride bikes but also go to Burger King are more likely by 0.3% to Vote one way than people who don’t ride bikes but got to BK. But people who ride bikes but also go to Primark are 0.05% more likely to vote the other way. Add in enough of those correlations and you can start to make some remarkably solid predictions.
So back to my point, that is all around interests and the mindset of individuals of what they say/like etc on platforms like Facebook. They use that data as you've pointed out to determine demographics. Those methods are then applied on platforms such as facebook, instragram etc. Which disregards regional borders, it's advertise to any user to who views that platform.
That we are in agreement with.
I am still failing to see how they knowing I was in Tescos for 50 mins or the 2nd wifes for 3hrs yesterday adds to what they already have and can help further manipulate my mind.
They know I'm based in Kirklees, they know I work in Halifax, they know I was born in another part of the country and so on, what macro level of locational data for a small subset of time based on a period whereby rules are in place to restrict movement to a degree and therefore influences my decision to go to places, be of any use in the election in 4 years time?
Regardless it doesnt record GPS data anyway -
The NHS app uses Bluetooth signals to check for contacts. This means it does not need to connect to mobile data when you are out and about. For now the app does not track GPS signals.
The NHS said it might introduce a system of monitoring location data in future to collect useful data on the pandemic, but that would be voluntary.
Like so many things that our government does these days, the app is a red herring as far as your data is concerned. A talking point so we are distracted arguing amongst ourselves.
What you need to be worried about is what they are doing with existing data under the guise of app development.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-voter-data
https://tech.newstatesman.com/policy/exclusive-government-blocks-full-publication-of-ai-review
Etc.
Data is power, if it wasn't, no one would bother collecting it. If you have access to data and data sets about customers that your competitors don't have access to, then you have the advantage (provided you know what to do with it).
I am still failing to see how they knowing I was in Tescos for 50 mins or the 2nd wifes for 3hrs yesterday adds to what they already have and can help further manipulate my mind.
From that one piece of data; **** all I'd imagine, but that's not what data manipulation is about. To use the "going to Tesco" analogy, they're looking at How many times you go there? How long is each visit? Are you going for the weekly shop? Men don't normally do that, so what groups of men do? and do you fit that profile? and what can we infer about you that matches what we know about men who shop for x times a week, for y mins at a time?
If there is a profile, can we direct a message that we know from testing that resonates with Men who fit this category.
It message might not work for you, but it will work on some, and as many elections are marginal, you only have to make small percentages of people vote the way you want to make a difference in a first past the post system. Data manipulation isn't trying to manipulate your mind, all it wants is your vote, once it's got that, you can **** off back to your dreary life until next time we need it, prole.
That's how it works.
FWIW I’ve got relatives in a small town of ~14,000 in Canada, they had an outbreak, and within days had split the population into 3, those that were symptomatic, those that were likely exposed via contact tracing, and the low risk, and tested everyone in that order. So within days you know whether you need to be staying home or not and the town goes back to normal-ish because the outbreak is contained. That’s how it should work.
Sounds good. But how does that scale up to London or Birmingham with millions of people? That's the challenge.
That’s how it works.
Except, as I mentioned above (and confirmed [url= https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer ]here[/url]) the NHSX app only submits your recent contact data if you are suspected of having C19. So the vast majority of people are unlikely to ever send in details of recent contacts. If you don't use the app but then test positive the manual contact tracing team will still want to know who you have recently been in close contact with, so will still get a similar data set that will most likely end up in the same place. Will you refuse to work with the manual contact tracing team because of the same privacy concerns?
You all know that it doesn’t actually report on location just on proximity to other users right? The post code is just for a rough idea of where you live.
I think some of you might need to re-read the blog post.
Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I don’t think so.
Sorry - I was reading stuff wrong. It doesn't work if the iPhone goes to sleep unless another device wakes it up. Situation remains the same. As you were.
You all know that it doesn’t actually report on location just on proximity to other users right? The post code is just for a rough idea of where you live.
...and if you put enough of that information together (along with other bits and pieces) it is likely very possible to get a good idea of your movements without having to directly trace it.
For example people using strava can effectively block where they live from showing up on their feed to prevent bike thefts. The very absence of this data (possibly combined with the data from friends/connections) could be used to determine with a pretty high degree of accuracy where you live.
Even if that were true, are you suggesting this is different for the millions of people who give away this information voluntarily to Google/Facebook/Instagram every minute of every single day as apposed to the Potential of this to do it for a few months to get us out of the shit?
This sort of petty scaremongering gets right on my tits.
It's not petty scaremongering.
It's genuine privacy concerns.
Those with privacy concerns don't give all their stuff to Facebook. And that's partly why Facebook put a greater weighting on what other people tell them about you.
It;s the job of the NHS app guys and the Govt. to properly demonstrate and even pass a law if need be to ensure that all data more than 28 days old is deleted, can never be used for anything other than the immediate intended purpose, that there is not a unique ID stored for each installation, etc.
The 2 big phone OS companies even came up with a solution, but that was not chosen because they want more data identifiable to specific installations, and data to be kept forever.
It's not going on my phone.
It’s not going on my phone.
So back to my earlier question - if you contract C-19 and are called by a manual contact tracing team who will take more or less the same details from you, will you comply?
I'm not trying to defend the app, but it does look like not everyone read the description.
IF it is per the description and that does not change (yes I know) then
it doesn't track your location
there is nothing held to associate your device to 'you' apart from the post code, which you enter yourself
I think that if you had some entry points, ie enough known devices with the associated known ID and where they were over time, and got them to wander about an area for a time, then reported their contacts, you might be able to do something about contact location. BUT you have to be one of a few people inside NHSX to do enable this to happen, and even then, you would only know device contact location, not actual individual device owners, you need to correlate some other data source for that. Periodically changing the IDs like A/G would make this harder still of course.
So its pretty hard to get useful stuff from as it is, Facebook is really much easier, if I wanted to be all big brother I'd look at doing something else.
BUT at the end of the day I'm sure the data does have value for other purposes beyond health. If there was a requirement to delete the data after a period of time people would be a lot happier. Even if only a random snapshot was allowed to be retained for future research purposes.
Interesting that they asked the devs to estimate switching to the A/G API.
'But we give data to Facebook' isn't really a ringing endorsement of a strategy.
Facebook, Google, Amazon. Data behemoths. Unstoppable, they don't answer to anyone. Now let's give our Government the same power.
Sounds good. But how does that scale up to London or Birmingham with millions of people? That’s the challenge.
With a decent contact tracing app, relatively simply. You find one person with it, and then test everyone they've been in contact with, that find a few more, and so on and so forth. The point is that with a working system you don't need to lockdown and test the entirety of Birmingham and London, just the ones that have been exposed to it.
That's why we need an app that works, and by works I include enough people trusting it with their data.
Even if that were true, are you suggesting this is different for the millions of people who give away this information voluntarily to Google/Facebook/Instagram every minute of every single day as apposed to the Potential of this to do it for a few months to get us out of the shit?
Yes - because of who we are giving it to. I'm sceptical of Apple/Google, but I'm downright distrustful of anything Cummings is associated with.
I might not like to give my housekey to a tradesman who needs access to my house to fix something, but I can see I might need to. I sure as hell wouldn't give it to the one whose reviews say that as well as not having the capability of fixing the problem, while he was in he nicked a load of stuff.
there is nothing held to associate your device to ‘you’ apart from the post code, which you enter yourself
It might not know that I'm called Andy, but there is a specific unique ID stored for each user that persists forever...
When you download and run the app, your phone is assigned a big random number (a 128 bit GUID) to act as your fixed but anonymous identity (we’ll call it the installation ID from now on). Only your device and the NHS server ever know that.
There must be a reason for them wanting or needing to store unique IDs, and not just interactions, suspected infections and +/- test results for those interactions.
At least with the A/G API only the hashed interaction IDs are exchanged, which are based on a daily ID randomly generated on the phone.
That’s why we need an app that works, and by works I include enough people trusting it with their data.
Agreed. I misunderstood, thought your Canadian small town example was manual contract tracers.
At least with the A/G API only the hashed interaction IDs are exchanged, which are based on a daily ID randomly generated on the phone.
And from [url= https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer ]the NHSX App Explainer[/url]
"the app creates a different daily ID. This keeps your installation ID private from other users you may interact with."
but NHS still knows your spcecific, permanent, unique ID.
other users might not, but NHS does.
Private from other users.
Interesting that they asked the devs to estimate switching to the A/G API.
The controversy generated by the UK choosing not to use the A/G approach was pretty predictable, so the fact that they decided to do that anyway, and are now investigating the impact of switching horses may give some insight into how well this project is being managed.
Personally, I'm not so concerned about the theoretical possibility of the app being used as part of some deliberate, nefarious government surveillance conspiracy. I just don't believe the government (and their contractor) are capable of delivering a project of this scale in the time available, without cocking it up somewhere, so I'm out.
The controversy generated by the UK choosing not to use the A/G approach was pretty predictable, so the fact that they decided to do that anyway, and are now investigating the impact of switching horses may give some insight into how well this project is being managed.
It could be as simple as timing and making use of what you've already developed.
The Apple/Google stuff is in Beta. Yes, they plan to release it soon, but who knows how long it will take. Plus you then need to retest your app and implementation before you launch.
So if this method of contact tracing is seen as a key element of relaxing lockdown, do we want to wait a month or so? Prob quite sensible to release what you have, then update with the phone manufacturer's implementation when you can.
None of these countries who say they are using Apple/Google can have anything live yet as it's not released.
Several people have said variations on "I don't get / I cannot comprehend / I don't understand." I'd respectfully shine a light on the fact that this is very much different from a stance of "I disagree." And disagreeing with something that by your own admission you don't understand is a rather silly thing to do.
Seriously, how the **** does having location data (which already exists) on someone influence an election.
In isolation it probably doesn't. But the thing with 'big data' is that you aggregate multiple sources and with sufficient data "anonymous" data becomes actually rather accurate personal data. But in order to do that you'd need a company who specialises in this sort of thing, a company who is a national if not world leader in AI development who are used to dealing with big data.
A company like, say, Faculty Science Ltd (nee ASI Data Science).
Whose employees are working on the NHSX app.
For a working example see the Vote Leave campaign from a few years ago. Wonder who was behind that?
Quite. Targeted advertising isn't just sending leaflets to people you calculate will respond favourably, but also not appearing on the radar of people who might cause you bother by objecting. Which is exactly what happened in 2016.
A personality quiz went up on Facebook which was installed by something like a third of a million FB users. The app had access not only to those users' data but also, silently, the data of all their friends. Net result, a comprehensive database of fifty million users. Which went to Cambridge Analytica.
First in the US and later working for Vote Leave (a vehicle of Dominic Cummings, lest we forget), CA used this data to target advertising and propaganda with astonishing granularity. It's the difference between advertising beer to someone whom you think might like beer and being able to buy the perfect gift for your best mate because you've known them for 30 years.
Moreover, it avoided people who wouldn't be receptive. Why is this important? Well say you were a drug dealer, would it be a good idea to stick your great deals on heroin in an advert in the local paper? The micro-targeted adverts were appalling, the sort of stuff you really just couldn't get away with saying. Except, those who would object to the content never saw it, they didn't know it existed to object to. We're still now harking back to the Boris Bus and Farage's "breaking point" poster, yet there was far worse out there that I'll wager most people reading this have never even seen.
I don’t have anything to hide
Care to stick your address up on here and I'll pop round to install a couple of webcams in your bedroom?
Everyone has something to hide, just because you're not up to nefarious business doesn't mean you don't need a degree of privacy.
I just don’t believe the government (and their contractor) are capable of delivering a project of this scale in the time available, without cocking it up somewhere, so I’m out.
Yup. The app will have limited utility and will fail to deliver.
See also: Settled Status app.
@Jamze it's been available for over a month now on Apple's Developer program. The only reason for anyone (NHS etc) not using it, is because they don't want to.The Apple/Google stuff is in Beta. Yes, they plan to release it soon, but who knows how long it will take. Plus you then need to retest your app and implementation before you launch.
Even if that were true, are you suggesting this is different for the millions of people who give away this information voluntarily to Google/Facebook/Instagram every minute of every single day as apposed to the Potential of this to do it for a few months to get us out of the shit?
This sort of petty scaremongering gets right on my tits.
Well I can't speak for anyone else but I am very careful about what I do and do not allow Facebook et al do. I don't allow any apps on my phone to track my location full time for example, stuff like mapping software and weather can use my location when I am using the app as that is useful to me. I use VPN software on my phone and home computer. I do not and never have use facebook to log me into anything. That said I do trust those companies (well google and apple) with my data more that the government. Apple for example have gone to court to defend the privacy of its customers.
To be clear though I do not think that the people who are trying to get epidemiology data are up to anything nefarious. I do not trust that other people might use this data for different purposes at some point in the future.
who knows how long it will take.
"Two of the largest tech companies on the planet are collaborating to create an application / API which is likely to be used by most of the world but it's not quite finished. I think I'll write my own version instead."
The only reason the government / NHS would conclude this is either because they were monumentally incompetent (I know, I know) or as my Z80-based colleague posits above, they simply don't want to.
@Jamze it’s been available for over a month now on Apple’s Developer program. The only reason for anyone (NHS etc) not using it, is because they don’t want to.
Posted 14 minutes ago
New Statesman Tech...
'NHSX, the NHS England innovation unit, is leading the project, and development of the app is reportedly being carried out by Pivotal, a subsidiary of American software giant VMware.
A team at Oxford University has been developing the algorithm since mid-January, inspired by the Chinese tracking app that designates people a red or green riskiness code determining whether they should self-isolate.'
So work underway in Jan.
First announced 4th April.
First dev seed (with limited documentation) was April 29th. 8 days ago.
Note...
'First, in May, both companies will release APIs that enable interoperability between Android and iOS devices using apps from public health authorities. These official apps will be available for users to download via their respective app stores.'
So hopefully coming mid-May 🤞🏻
'Second, in the coming months, Apple and Google will work to enable a broader Bluetooth-based contact tracing platform by building this functionality into the underlying platforms.'
In the coming months then.
But don't let that get in the way of a juicy government conspiracy theory 🙂
Agreed. I misunderstood, thought your Canadian small town example was manual contract tracers.
Sorry, yes, my point was rather that one doesn't work without the other. And that a successful system means life can go back to something approaching normal for most people.
In the case of a small town it's probably quicker and safer to test everyone so that it's done once and then this being Canada the town's pretty much isolated anyway. But as long as you can find it early-ish in the population (e.g. by having an app that would ping the one person in town who'd visited somewhere and been at risk) then you can test them, and if nececary then move onto everyone they've been in contact with.
