@larrylamb @funkydunc
I don't think people are against an app, but what does the NHSX app do that the G-A app won't do? (take aside not work as a feature)
So why do we need a Gov developed app and (much) more than that why does it have to be developed by Cummings, Warner, CA, et al
Unless you've had your head in a hole for the last 4 years aren't you a teeny bit suspicious of what they're up to? Do you recognise that as soon as his name appears near it it stinks of being another con, so why even take that risk?
Yes - it's a national crisis, so do what is needed, rethink your priorities and do what's right for the country rather than use this as another opportunity. That comment's aimed at the Government BTW
Unless you’ve had your head in a hole for the last 4 years aren’t you a teeny bit suspicious of what they’re up to? Do you recognise that as soon as his name appears near it it stinks of being another con, so why even take that risk
Or, you're exceptionally cynical ?
What are 'they' looking to steal/do ?
Just spitballing here, thinking aloud, grabbing stuff out of the air - steal a referendum result perhaps?
This is the issue. I'm pro using tech for contact tracing, and put some effort into explaining to friends and family how it doesn't track your location with GPS, uses a clever Bluetooth LE method (my raffle ticket analogy) and this is what you get when you install it on Android. As the wife just said 'it's like someone having a front door key but promising not to use it.'
So why do we need a Gov developed app and (much) more than that why does it have to be developed by Cummings, Warner, CA, et al
It can highlight Covid breakout hotspots.
That putting the first part of your postcode in bit.
The decentralised is fine in theory but you really need a bit more data to give you more of a view of the infection to help with track an tracing.
Someone need to access to an overall map view.
I’d not be surprised if the nhsx app ends up using the Apple api (as they’ve got control over the Bluetooth in background issue) the api will probably end up with tweaks to t&c to allow for this.
Or, you’re exceptionally cynical ?
What are ‘they’ looking to steal/do ?
Don't think about it from an individual point of view, its about all the data and big picture that data can create. This was and has been abused in the past.
I highly recommend anyone who's interested in 'what can they do with my data?' to watch this:
https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80117542
I don't think you have to be exceptionally cynical. Just a bit savvy to think that Cummings is toxic and anything associated with him has a good chance of having some kind of ulterior motive. Do you think he's OK then? You're not even a bit suspicious of this path vs the G-A one?
As to what they could steal. I don't know, it's not my area of expertise. But like I said previously, when I don't have expertise in an area I try to find out or I get advice from others that know, and this site is a magnificent (if argumentative} resource for that. When i want advice on all sorts I come here and I use my network of friends elsewhere to advise. And then I make up my mind.
So, convince me that Cummings and co are essential to this app working, otherwise given their record I don't want them anywhere near it.
And don't do the 'good of the country' bit, they don't need to be involved for that and as above, them being involved immediately limits uptake ergo it's not for the overall good.
Is That screenshot real or someone stirring it up ?
Jamze- do you use google maps, Amazon, Strava ?
We are all happy to let these companies stalk us, but something that could help save life isn’t ok ? 🤷♂️
I highly recommend anyone who’s interested in ‘what can they do with my data?’ to watch this:
https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80117542
/blockquote>Be aware some have said these reports on what CA did/were capable of doing were vastly exaggerated. The reporters basically believed the CA publicity material. They didn't actually deliver. They did misuse Facebook data and try though.
Im not sure that any data that could be gathered from the app would be that useful for the nefarious purposes suggested.
This would be fine in normal times when peoples movements and activities are normal and therefore the data may have some value but I wouldn't expect anything useful for the rest of this year so struggle to see how much use knowing where you are and who you have been in contact with is a massive issue.
If it helps to ease restrictions then I cant see an issue. I always assume someone is watching anyway.
What are ‘they’ looking to steal/do ?
Cummings (as you know) uses data to manipulate results of important national decisions, he's done it in the North East Mayoral elections, and again for Brexit. He will use data to bend results by targeting specific communities that can heavily influence decisions in a way that he and the the people that pay him feel will benefit them the most. This is not democracy in action.
Cummings (as you know) will use highly controversial data to misdirect and confuse. He's done this twice now, the £350 million for the NHS on the side of a bus, and the 100,000 test a day for COVID19. He does this using information from data to distract people from what the people who pay him actual are trying to do, by confusing and distracting from the actual purpose of their plans. This is not democracy in action.
These are the people who want your data. They want it from 28 days if you test positive, and regardless they want to keep it forever after this pandemic is finished to perhaps do "research" in the future. Like many on here I don't think of myself as a tin foil hat wearing conspiracist, but given that there is a workable solution that doesn't need a data mining company run by friends of Cummings anywhere near it to work, I'd rather have that than this.
Do you think he’s OK then?
MAte i don't even know who he is 🙂 I don't do politics... but i simply cannot comprehend what people have to worry about with a location tracing app. As i say, even if it went in and saw i looked for giant dildos on a wednesday morning, so bloody what ? Who cares... Sure, i'd be slightly worried if it started stealing my bank account login information, but i don't see that.
Whether it can see my google history, my ebay preferences, or even whether i have Strava installled and did a cycle ride, i simply do not care... not a little teensy tiny weeny bit.
We are all happy to let these companies stalk us, but something that could help save life isn’t ok
You keep presenting this as the only option and still no-one's yet answered......
Why does Cummings and Co have to develop this app that will save lives. What is their involvement? The concerns me and many others have will limit the uptake and limit effectiveness.
There might not be an issue but as soon as he's near it it's tainted. Avoid that risk, it's for the good of us all - if there's no ulterior motive what have the Gov got to lose; if there is then tough titty, you reap what you sow.
Cummings (as you know)
Or not... As i say, i don't even know who he is... nor do i care.... I very much doubt he's an expert at compiling Google Apps though?
This is not democracy in action
These are not normal times either.
Vilify me as you wish but there is no way that app is going anywhere near my phone.
The fact that it’ll barely work anyway makes me feel a whole lot less bad about this decision.
Is That screenshot real or someone stirring it up ?
Real. I've just installed the app on my phone, it says it needs location priv all the time to work.
Jamze- do you use google maps, Amazon, Strava ?
We are all happy to let these companies stalk us, but something that could help save life isn’t ok ? 🤷♂️
As I said, I'm pro using the tech. Yes, I use all those and am happy to trade the benefits I get for them getting my data.
I might be happy to do the same with the Covid app - but why have all these designs and articles saying it uses Bluetooth LE, doesn't use GPS to track location etc. and then this is the first priv it asks for?
Just tell me why you need it. The app at the moment just says we promise not to use it (but they need it anyway.)
Gut feel is they'll switch to the Apple/Google implementation pretty quickly. Most folks I know won't say yes to that priv request, irrespective of if they make the code open, publish lots of info on how it works etc.
These are not normal times either.
said every proto-autocratic state ever. Just because COVID19 is bad, doesn't mean that we should set aside hard won (and easily lost) rights freedoms and democracy. Have no doubt, that Dominic Cummings absolutely thinks he knows better than you about what's best for you, and he's working damned hard to make sure he has the tools to manipulate the Tory party into making those decisions.
@weeksy - then do a favour and either find out, or don't accuse people of being exceptionally cynical when by your own admission you don't know what / who you're discussing. Your position has no weight without. Sorry if that's harsh.
I very much doubt he’s an expert at compiling Google Apps though?
No, he (his colleagues) are the experts in big data harvesting and manipulation, with a strong suspicion (you may say exceptional cynicism) of doing so for nefarious ends. Yet he's the go to for the Gov to develop an app THAT BASICALLY ALREADY EXISTS ELSEWHERE.
Something about looking like a duck and sounding like a duck I'm afraid, and even if it isn't even the suspicion it's a duck makes me run away.
Senior figures told HSJ that it had been hard to assess the app because the government was “going about it in a kind of a hamfisted way. They haven’t got clear versions, so it’s been impossible to get fixed code base from them for NHS Digital to test. They keep changing it all over the place”.
That has a real death-march project stench to it - I can only imagine the pressure the developers are under to get the solution out the door, then they find yet another bug, another version out the door following yet another all-nighter, and should we be ordering pizza with pineapple tonight to stave off scurvy?
then do a favour and either find out, or don’t accuse people of being exceptionally cynical when by your own admission you don’t know what / who you’re discussing.
Not knowing who he is doesn't make me thick. We happen to disagree on a subject, that's fine, that's OK. I doubt me reading about him would being the same levels of emotion in me that it does in you, but i'm far more laid back and have no political affiliations or agenda. People who have an agenda see things how they want to and already go into any subject with a particular level of disdain/hatred before the topic even begins.
Don't worry about being harsh, this is a passionate subject, as long as you're not nasty, it's all good 🙂
put another way weeksy
if it was announced that Mike Ashley was about to take over Liverpool and sack Klopp and install Alan Pardew as manager. Would someone saying they have no interest in football and don't even know who Mike Ashley is but they're sure it'll be OK convince you 😉
Not knowing who he is doesn’t make me thick.
But it does make you ignorant (not in the pejorative sense) You can't be expected to make a decision without all the information you need. People here are trying to give you the information you need.
It's like you trying to influence a mate about which bike to buy when he knows **** all about bikes. You could play it straight and help him, you could play it crooked and use his ignorance to your benefit. Cummings is in the second group...Every Single Time.
From a government that was won on the back of dodgy data practices, no thanks.
I’m all for a tracing app but not something that has cummings finger prints on it
This.
If this is developed as well as other NHS IT projects, I think we can expect something with a minimum functionality bang on time for the next pandemic at the end of the decade.
As i say, even if it went in and saw i looked for giant dildos on a wednesday morning, so bloody what ?
They don't have the slightest interest in what dildos you're looking at, or you as an individual, so you can carry on with that. The developers might have a giggle, but in a database of tens of millions of people, it's unlikely anyone is going to be looking at your individual data at all.
The concerns are on a collective level and how that data can potentially be used to manipulate society as a whole, and we know the people working on this app have a past history of doing this.
Real. I’ve just installed the app on my phone, it says it needs location priv all the time to work.
We've just had a message at work about our staff who work on the IOW. Due to some of the contracts we have we are not allowed to have personal phones on us during work hours, we're issued with a company dumb phone with no GPS chip, camera damaged (we did have camera-free phones but they're hard to get hold of these days) and Bluetooth is not allowed to be switched on. We've been told under no circumstances are we allowed to install it as the app logs far too much location information. If a Google/Apple app appears they'll look at that as we use Google for our delivery HHT's and they are secured by Google to our agreed standards, maps doesn't work on them but it can log location when we do a delivery/collection. This means that we can prove where we were to customers but there's no data log of our routes.
I'm all for using technology to help us get over this and find a new normal but the current solution has far too many question marks over it's safety, effectiveness and implementation.
The concerns are on a collective level and how that data can potentially be used to manipulate society as a whole, and we know the people working on this app have a past history of doing this.
Go on, i'm curious.... how can they manipulate society with this data ?
I could push all the privacy concerns to one side for the greater good for an app that works. This one won't.
Or not… As i say, i don’t even know who he is… nor do i care….
Then you should probably go and find out.
It really is rather depressing that we have good reason to trust huge multinational corporations like Google and Apple over a democratically elected government. I won't be using the app.
Real. I’ve just installed the app on my phone, it says it needs location priv all the time to work.
We’ve just had a message at work about our staff who work on the IOW. Due to some of the contracts we have we are not allowed to have personal phones on us during work hours, we’re issued with a company dumb phone with no GPS chip, camera damaged (we did have camera-free phones but they’re hard to get hold of these days) and Bluetooth is not allowed to be switched on. We’ve been told under no circumstances are we allowed to install it as the app logs far too much location information. If a Google/Apple app appears they’ll look at that as we use Google for our delivery HHT’s and they are secured by Google to our agreed standards, maps doesn’t work on them but it can log location when we do a delivery/collection. This means that we can prove where we were to customers but there’s no data log of our routes.
I’m all for using technology to help us get over this and find a new normal but the current solution has far too many question marks over it’s safety, effectiveness and implementation.
Did a bit of digging, the location priv is necessary for Bluetooth LE. They should just be more transparent about it.
'BLE permissions
In order to use Bluetooth features in your application, you must declare the Bluetooth permission BLUETOOTH. You need this permission to perform any Bluetooth communication, such as requesting a connection, accepting a connection, and transferring data.
You must also declare the ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION permission, given that LE beacons are often associated with location. Without this permission, scans won't return any results.'
Go on, i’m curious…. how can they manipulate society with this data ?
Cummings (as you know) uses data to manipulate results of important national decisions, he’s done it in the North East Mayoral elections, and again for Brexit. He will use data to bend results by targeting specific communities that can heavily influence decisions in a way that he and the the people that pay him feel will benefit them the most. This is not democracy in action.
From my earlier post. In the pre-Brexit run up, Cummings was employed to try to make sure we left, He was funded by groups with common interests in making sure that we left because those groups don't like the heavily regulated (towards consumers and away from industry) world that the EU are trying to create/enforce. Cummings did that largely by getting data (probably illegally) from the biggest source of data he knew at the time; Facebook. He then used that Facebook data to determine who in the electorate could be manipulated into thinking that Brexit would be in their interest, or vote to come out through a sense of jingoism or patriotism. This was hugely targeted, unregulated and hidden (ie he pretended that it had come from other sources than his own campaign group; this is probably illegal)
Cummings now is at the heart of this Tory administration.
Seriously, how the **** does having location data (which already exists) on someone influence an election.
Your likes, interest and how you think etc I understand but locational data? Think theres a bit of over thinking it going on here.
To be fair although I dislike Cummings a lot he has the brains for this sort of thing as has been highlighted. Sort of like the criminal using his abilities for good.
Next you'll be telling me 5G spreads Covid19.
Just to add we're not the only country not adopting the A&G API... so does Cummings work for those countries too?
FunkyDunc
Member
So if you don’t like the idea of the NHS app, the next best thing is this.I don’t get people’s concerns about privacy (unless you do dodgy stuff) This is a world crisis, and one of the ways to end it is using technology, but if people want to prolong lockdown/limitations then choose not to adopt.
i report on the joizoe app, why hasnt this been more popular and/or interated into what .gov are [trying] doing?
Go on, i’m curious…. how can they manipulate society with this data ?
Did you hit the snooze button through the whole Brexit/Trump/Cambridge Analytica thing?
If google want's to know that I visited a shop and then send me adverts for similar stuff that's one thing. If it want's to go next level and infer that I might be interested in something else as a result because it can now guess my demographic, then that's also fine with me. No a million miles removed from the billboard adverts on the Hammersmith flyover for IBM servers and corporate lawyers, and the adverts at Moorgate in Bury for a pet crematorium.
That data available to a politician is downright dangerous though. We've seen time and again that a little data, on a lot of people lets them target those on the margins very specifically. Do that better than the opposition and you can win elections without 90% of the population ever seeing your election adverts which is both cheaper and helps you avoid scrutiny.
A bit like the (is it an urban myth, IDK) story that Boots rewards card system can tell if your pregnant with a higher degree of accuracy than pissing on a stick by the subtle changes in your shopping habits.
Seriously, how the **** does having location data (which already exists) on someone influence an election.
Because the whole point of "big data" is you don't need much detail to find the patterns.
It could be something random like people who ride bikes but also go to Burger King are more likely by 0.3% to Vote one way than people who don't ride bikes but got to BK. But people who ride bikes but also go to Primark are 0.05% more likely to vote the other way. Add in enough of those correlations and you can start to make some remarkably solid predictions.
Given that is Cummings day job, do you not find it in the lest bit suspicious that he want's to collect way more data?
At least with the Apple/Google system even if the data was collated then it's by an independent-ish third party that I'd imagine wouldn't want to lose it's reputation in a data breach or using it for nefarious purposes. And they've developed a system that from the ground up doesn't centralize that data in the first place.
Go on, i’m curious…. how can they manipulate society with this data?
It's like the scene in the action movie where the prison's exploding because the bad guys are attacking and the mass murderer (who's perhaps the good guy now) asks the guard for his gun to fend them off.
Does he:
a) give the gun to him to fend them off,
b) give the gun to him to fend them off but is then shot, because he's still the bad guy
c) give the gun to Chuck Norris who's just out of shot shouting "don't give the gun to him I'm a better option, roundhouse kick to the face"
Seriously, how the **** does having location data (which already exists) on someone influence an election.
TINAS beat me to it. Get enough data and the assumptions you can make from it are remarkably solid. Certainly enough to manipulate (or target if you like) small and otherwise uncoordinated groups of people (who may only need a wee push) to think/vote the way you want en masse, by targeted (or hidden from scrutiny) ads.
Aiui the only time the app logs data to the central server is if you show symptoms. So most people are unlikely to ever export any data (remember the idea here is to stop the spread) and those that do will likely only report once or twice. If you wanted a system to gather mass data on a population then this is a really bad way of doing it.
Nope, that would be the decentralised system, based around Apple-Google API, not NHS centralised one.
A-G only the anonymous keys associated with a positive test get uploaded, and all phones check to see daily if there are any new anonymous keys to check locally on the phone for any potential match. And that potential positive is only a warning to the phone holder.
With NHS system, afaict, all "anonymous" keys and all contacts are uploaded for the server to crunch who may be potentially infected.
No way in hell is that app going on my phone, but then fortunately I'm in Germany where they decided that the non-centralised version is more likely to get uptake than one that knows everything.
What are ‘they’ looking to steal/do ?
As another quick little example, relevant to this forum.
This in isolation has little utility:
However, it can then be used to create this:
https://www.strava.com/heatmap#7.00/-120.90000/38.36000/hot/all
OK, so we have the 'big data' influencing politics thing. And the 24/7 state surveillance worries.
IMO what they actually want to do is have a nice UK map back at ukgov/PHE/NHS mission-control that displays where people are reporting symptoms and getting positive test results, i.e. a near real-time feed from the contact tracing app of where outbreaks may be happening so they can deploy resource. Very much dependant on decent takeup of the app, quick-result Covid tests in the post, the tech working etc.
You can't do that with the completely distributed model. Note they'd still be able to do that using Apple/Google, people have pointed out you can do what you like in your app that sits on top of the Apple/Google API (except using GPS).
IMO what they actually want to do is have a nice UK map back at ukgov/PHE/NHS mission-control that displays where people are reporting symptoms and getting positive test results
The positive test results can be handled at the test centre surely? As soon as test returns positive, enter it into the system. No need for an app and it's verified and instant?
The positive test results can be handled at the test centre surely? As soon as test returns positive, enter it into the system. No need for an app and it’s verified and instant?
Yes, but when you're working at this scale (or the scale we will need to be working at) any automation is good. And tests may not need labs. The US keeps mentioning their self-test that gets a result in 15 mins for example.
A bit like the (is it an urban myth, IDK) story that Boots rewards card system can tell
That will have come from a story about Target in the US.
Not sure the story has been completely checked out or if it was one which has just been repeated so often its claimed to be true but essentially a man walks into the store complaining that they sent some baby clothes vouchers to his teenage daughter. Obviously they apologised but when a senior management called up a few days later to follow up the bloke apologised to them.
Apparently it was stuff like buying lots of unscented lotion and a few other things strongly correlated with being heavily pregnant. So if that suddenly changed it was advert time.
