[Closed] The book UKIPers are trying to ban

😆 @ reviews.

Even more laughable is the concept of some folk trying to compare UKIP to parties like SNP and the Greens.

Excellent.

@Deadlarcy I think the SNP and UKIP are closer than you think, the main issue for both parties is independence.

The SNP have been competently running a country for years. UKIP can't competently run their own party. They're also poles apart in attitudes to immigrants, the poor, taxation, etc etc.

@Deadlarcy I think the SNP and UKIP are closer than you think, the main issue for both parties is independence.

Course they are, yeah.

Jamba's - don't take that post at face value. Look at the trend and the reason.

@ben SNP's "left wing" credentials are pretty weak, I mean an independent Scotland would have slashed business taxes and both UKIP and the SNP are (where) run by ex bankers. We cannot forget AS championing the TBS takeover of ABN Amro complete with their huge US subprime subsidiary

Anyway I love the "book"

I'm not a SNP supporter, I'm a Green - but comparing them to UKIP is ridiculous.

...but comparing them to UKIP is ridiculous.

Tbf, most unblinkered people know it's BS.

Tbf, most unblinkered people know it's BS.

Yet both the New Statesman, left leaning, and the Spectator, right leaning, have done exactly that - [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/what-snps-breakthrough-tells-us-about-ukips-prospects ]New Statesman[/url] and [url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/04/brothers-in-arms-ukip-and-the-snp-are-one-and-the-same/ ]The Spectator[/url]

e2 e4 😉

The SNP have been competently running a country for years. UKIP can't competently run their own party. They're also poles apart in attitudes to immigrants, the poor, taxation, etc etc.

Playing devils advocate a little here. But....

How well organised was the SNP in 1954/55, could they run a country then. What electoral success had been achieved by this point?

Honest question, I've no idea. And yes, I'm aware the worlds changed a little since the 50s.

As the referendum vote showed, the fact that they don't understand how a currency works is a bit of an inhibitor to running an independent country. And that's according to Scottish voters.

160 pages of farage wit...

Im surprised its more than a single page flyer....

I believ there was an LP in the early 80's called "The Wit and Wisdom of Ronald Reagan" released by Stiff..........it was blank both sides.

TBF it does contain less content than a single page flyer

Why is it ridiculous @ben, independence is the central (only) policy of both parties? If you where putting parties into boxes they'd be in the same box. People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing, watch the election unfold UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one. As per my post above the SNPs corporate tax policies are pretty right wing, they want control of corporate tax so they can slash it.

If you where putting parties into boxes they'd be in the same box.

Only if it was a very big box that said "political party" on it, and even then you'd have to be kind to UKIP as most political parties have actual policies.

Pointlessly trying to class UKIP as right wing? How many UKIP representatives have had to quit for being racist again? It's about one a week.

SNP's "left wing" credentials are pretty weak

Unless you compare them to any other party that's likely to have power anywhere in the UK that is. They're certainly to the left of the Tories and NuLab. The old "Tartan Tory" flag dates back to the days when Labour was a left-wing party.

People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing, watch the election unfold UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one.

The whole left/right wing thing is somewhat devalued now that the main UK parties are both left of centre. NuLab still does contain some left wingers (e.g. Derek Skinner) but they seemed to have missed the fact that the party they're in now is probably to the right of where the Tories where back when they first entered politics.

jambalaya - Member
trust me on this one.

Why?

independence is the central (only) policy of both parties?

The SNP has a few decent policies held together by a theme of human decency (free prescriptions, an NHS not in ruins, free higher education for all). Which is the total opposite of UKIP.

I support the SNP in Scotland but not independence, and doubt I am the only one. I suspect those that support UK but not independence from our biggest trading partner are few and far between.

'Amazon Verified Purchase
This is a con! The book is blank. Went back onto website, and yes it does say this, but only after you have extended the text to Read More... which I didn't do, as I took the title to mean exactly what it said. It was a joke for a friend who supports Nigel, but to give a blank book is an insult.'

The last sentence is truely excellent. Surely if you're intention is to give this as a joke to a Farage supporter the fact that it's blank just emphasises the joke.

Review: "[i]It is literally stuffed with everything witty or intelligent that Farage has ever said, ranging from, ' ' to ' ', and not forgetting of course, the forever quoted classic, ' '.[/i]"

😀

[edit]Never noticed his initials before...

jambalaya - Member

... center and left leaning policies,

You can't lean to the centre. Trust me on this one.

If you where putting parties into boxes they'd be in the same box.

UKIP _ anti EU and pro the UK Union
SNP - Pro the EU anti the UK Union

apart from completely disagreeing on their reason detre yes they are identical and in the the same box

People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing,

You can't lean to the centre. Trust me on this one.

What about if your ground was skewed like if you were on the right side of a ship that was sinking... oh, I don't know, say.. to the right.

I've also noted among the fun political analogies that there seems to be a box shortage.

@Lifer, don't then let's just circle back in May and have a look at the policy announcements UKIP made during the campaign. Farage will announce a variety of policies and many will appeal to left wing voters.

I see Milliband has got the joke and said "never again will we dismiss immigration as an issue" Controlling immigration isn't a left vs right political issue - its across the spectrum.

Pointlessly trying to class UKIP as right wing? How many UKIP representatives have had to quit for being racist again? It's about one a week.

Why is racism a right wing trait?

Answer, it's not. You could have a racist comunist just as much as a racist UKIPer.

We try to pigeion hole every trait of every polictical party in terms of left and right wing but that is not possible. Nationalism is one of trait that cannot be assigned to left or right but nationalism at the extremes can appeal to racists.

An example of this is Labour getting themselves themselves into a tizz about imigration. They've assumed "we are left wing so can't be racist and nationalism is racist so we must allow all imigration". What they failed to do is understand their socilaist priciples meant they needed to look after the poorest in society and these were the people being affected by imigration while the country as a whole and the mega rich got richer.

Uncontrolled imigration is actually a very capitalist approach and capitalism is defined as a right wing trait.

This is also why parties like the SNP and UKIP can't be defined as left or right. They are nationalists (with some messed up ideas linked to Europe) so they pursue nationalist policies which further their own country's agenda.

For the SNP this means free prescripions and higher education as this gives a point of difference to the English and reduced corporation tax as this would attract big business to an independant Scotland (as it did for ROI). These policies are at oposite ends of the political spectrum but are designed to further Scotland's agenda. I have no doubt that if the SNP decided the best way to further Scotland's agenda would be to shit all over the poor then they would do that instead.

For UKIP they don't have such coherent policies so it is hard to tell but they deffinately exhibit both left and right wing polilcies in the name of nationalism.

The SNP had/have plenty of radical RW policies - many that would make a Tory blush. No lender of last resort as this would eliminate moral hazard in banking, Wow, that's straight out of the Adam Smith handbook and totally off-piste for Tories (admittedly this could be simply because they didn't understand the issue instead)

The also share the obvious similarity that there core ideas do not bear up to scrutiny and their leaders both suppress internal and external debate to a v high degree. They appeal to simple protest ideas, but fall over when examined.

Milliband is right and wrong. Immigration is an election issue (because others have shaped the narrative) but it is not an economic problem. It's impact is small and marginally positive - completely contrary to UKIP scaremongering.

EU/immigration has always made party politics confused!!!

SNP's "left wing" credentials are pretty weak.

People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing, watch the election unfold UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one

hhahahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh
aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhahahahahhahahaHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA That is pure ****ing genius, well done that man

@jfletch makes the point more eloquently than I have managed.

UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one

[img] https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxgSgjI_rx8IyfmwRwVKONtx-NZ9yfosfaIivP1Hm3yII-jqcnZg [/img]

The whole left/right wing thing is somewhat devalued now that the main UK parties are both left of centre.

😯 😆

Or did you mean right?

The also share the obvious similarity that there core ideas do not bear up to scrutiny

In Scotland the general public has been able to observe 3 types of government in the Scottish Parliament so far, in this order:

1) A NuLab/LibDem coalition (twice)
2) An SNP minority government
3) An SNP majority government

Every indication currently is that the next election will again see an SNP majority. So very much unlike UKIP the SNP have had to stand up to scrutiny as a party of power, and that scrutiny does not appear to have been unfavourable.

UKIP are much more like the SSP who for a while seemed able to sell their mental policies to a small but significant element of the voting population - enough so that they got a few MSP's. Hopefully like the SSP they'll also disintegrate through infighting and other manifest lunancy etc. and will then remove themselves from the political landscape.

Or did you mean right?

That was my deliberate mistake left in to see if anyone was paying attention... 😳

teamhurtmore - Member
As the referendum vote showed, the fact that they don't understand how a currency works is a bit of an inhibitor to running an independent country. And that's according to Scottish voters.

You should change your name to teamdullas****! 😉 change the record!

Why is racism a right wing trait

I am not sure why you have decided nationalism is a type of its own and i sort of get your point. However you can have different views within nationalism
You may as well say the labour party are left wing the radical socialist poarty are left wing so they are the same - its simplistic at best and misleading

They've assumed "we are left wing so can't be racist and nationalism is racist so we must allow all imigration"

here core ideas do not bear up to scrutiny* and their leaders both suppress internal and external debate to a v high degree

* their core ideas are the opposites [ yet you claim they are alike and did not even address the point] and you can agree or disagree with them but the fact you disagree with them both does not make them the same and or them "not bear up to scrutiny - this means THM does not like what they stand for. you are entitled to your view but it is not as you state

I am not sure either party really is a cult of personality or stifles debate internally never mind externally* [ how exactly are they doing that btw - example?] what is your evidence to support this?

* was the referendum an example of the way they stifled debate ? Odd thing to claim tbh

UKIP are bit more cult of Nigel but I still dont think they stifle debate. From the lack of policies it seems more likely they dont actually have one 😉

And that's according to Scottish voters

45% of voters opted for the SNP in the referendum. If any party gets that in the general election they'll have a massive majority and see it as a ringing endorsement of their manifesto. I'm sure that the 35% or so that is all the winning NuLab or Labour government will get in the next election won't see that as a rejection by the public of everything they stand for.

...but comparing them to UKIP is ridiculous.

Tbf, most unblinkered people know it's BS.

their core ideas are the opposites

No, their core idea's are Nationalism. They have defined that nation differently but they are parties founded on self determination based on historical borders.

And they have both gone about furthering their Nationalist ideas in the same way, by proposing populist policies from across the polictial spectrum to gain support for their Nationalist views.

Where they diverge is the policies they have chosen to forward their agenda.

The SNP have moved to the left as this gives them the most support in Scotland but have no issue lunging either way if they think it will be popular with the electorate, from Norway's soverign wealth fund to Irelands corporation tax policies.

UKIP have gone the other way building on peoples fears and predjudces of immigrants (which tends to attract racists even though it's not an inherently racist thing to do), but some of their taxation policies are quite left leaning.

Of course, their core ideas are different in content, the similarity is that they are still both flawed.

Joe, fail to learn from history and you will make the same mistakes. The Scottish voters were clear, the open goal was missed because basic questions on the currency were not answered. If yS fails to understand that you actually have to answer basic but key questions you will never score the goal in the next generations vote!!

BBSB - why thank you, we try our best!

AS suppression of the oil price debate was a clear case of suppressing external debate (the 3Bs giveaway)

The interesting question (confirmed to me by T and L MPs) is that the main parties don't know how to deal with such BS. They are advised to ignore it and re focus on other issues. Meanwhile, the protest parties are able to shape the narrative and public opinion on falsehoods such as the threat of immigration

The interesting question (confirmed to me by T and L MPs)

ohhh thm not prepared to sit back and let jambablaya do all the drivel spouting.

Don't mock, THM deals with politicians and statesmen at the highest level*.

*6th Floor: Lingerie and women's accessories 😉

Well, you can ignore it if you want. You did with the yS debate and look what cost you! BSing on the currency and debt.

Mainstream parties across the world are struggling with the conflict between what needs to be done and what people want to be done - just look at Brazil in the last 48 hours, with the reaction to (and ex-reactionary) left wing government announcing cuts in pensions and unemployment benefits - kind of kills the ideological argument, doesn't it?!? And she is nationalising banks......

@epic the referendum had two choices yes/no - so 45 isn't so impressive as its a clear loss. Newsnight prediction model had Labour on 386 MPs and Tories on 380 with Tories getting 1% more of the vote than Labour. Plus SNP doing well (56?)

People here don't seem to be able to avoid pigeon holing UKIP, very dangerous to underestimate your opponents, as I said at least Milliband has recognised UKIP as a threat.

@BigBut - why not debate the points raised, as @epic said the SNP would swing right or left if it thought it assisted their only agenda, Scottish independence.

@BigBut - why not debate the points raised,

😀

You should change your name to teamdullas****! change the record!

This made me laugh 😆

And they have both gone about furthering their Nationalist ideas in the same way, by proposing populist policies from across the polictial spectrum to gain support for their Nationalist views.

**** me a political party with popular ideas to achieve their goal. Have you ever heard of such madness lets hope the torIies and Labour don’t catch on to such crazy ideas.

Where they diverge is the policies they have chosen to forward their agenda.

So apart from having different policies they are the same…ok now you are starting to make sense 😕

THM seems to have his own thread where the scottish referendum is being discussed.
Nope his riding buddy is here to help him out as they play straight man and side kick

@BigBut - why not debate the points raised,

Where does it say they're "tring to ban" it?

I've pondered this further. I reckon these two are very similar.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Farage could accidentally be the most socialist (sic) person in the country- they are both willing to stop trading with his neighbours, both want to keep everyone else out of their country, both think other nations are inferior and both are perfectly happy to utterly shaft their country in the name of their batshit mental beliefs.

@BigBut, hey cool you even found an e-card with my name on it. Capitals next time though please, as a mark of respect and all that 8)

😀 easier than debating!!!

FWIW, that well-known RW rag (sic) the New Statesman was drawing the parallels back in 2013. I guess they employ idiots too?!?

Today politicians are fearful of the potential "breakthrough" of a nationalist separatist party with a charismatic leader. No, not Alex Salmond and the SNP, but Nigel Farage and UKIP. Nevertheless, the similarities between the two parties are striking. When you consider that both are obsessed with constitutional politics and plebiscites; both are derided for their collection of "fruit cakes"; both admire the right-wing economic policies of Margaret Thatcher; both stand on a none-of-the-above party platform, challenging the political establishment; and, ultimately, both believe that the blame for all life’s woes lie with membership of a certain union.

Its like Morecambe and Wise all I have to do is now is work out which one of you is funny and which one of you wise 😕

At least you will have something to chuckle about on your rides

teamhurtmore - Member
Of course, their core ideas are different in content, the similarity is that they are still both flawed.

Joe, fail to learn from history and you will make the same mistakes. The Scottish voters were clear, the open goal was missed because basic questions on the currency were not answered. If yS fails to understand that you actually have to answer basic but key questions you will never score the goal in the next generations vote!!

If Labour gets into govt again within such a short period you lot are screwed. Screwed! Big time zombie style.

Conservative is doing fine for now so they would be a lesser zombie to see in power.

LD - this party lives in a dreamland so they should remain in the dreamland. They are nutrients to zombies. Should Not even be voted into local council as they have the tendency to intervene in your personal life.

UKIP, although another variant of zombies (they all are, they all are ... ) should be given a chance to try out their luck, coz the other three simply had it so good for so long.

I would vote for Alex Salmond if he stands for election in the South just to stir things up a bit.

🙄

So a selection of UKIP policies I see as being left wing, taken from their website. I would reckon its about 50% or 60% of the policies listed. It's quite long so I imagine most of you won't bother to read it.

[i]UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).
We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.
UKIP will set up a Treasury Commission to design a turnover tax to ensure big businesses pay a minimum floor rate of tax as a proportion of their UK turnover.

UKIP will introduce an option for students to take an Apprenticeship Qualification instead of four non-core GCSEs which can be continued at A-Level. Students can take up apprenticeships in jobs with certified professionals qualified to grade the progress of the student.
Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.

UKIP will ensure the NHS is free at the point of delivery and time of need for all UK residents.
We will stop further use of PFI in the NHS and encourage local authorities to buy out their PFI contracts early where this is affordable.
We will ensure that GPs’ surgeries are open at least one evening per week, where there is demand for it.
UKIP opposes plans to charge patients for visiting their GP.
We will ensure that visitors to the UK, and migrants until they have paid NI for five years, have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa. UKIP will commit to spending £200m of the £2bn saving to end hospital car parking charges in England.
We will replace Monitor and the Care Quality Commission with elected county health boards to be more responsive scrutineers of local health services. These will be able to inspect health services and take evidence from whistle-blowers.
UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.

UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.
We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance.

UKIP will let the British parliament vote on GM foods.
UKIP will abolish the export of live animals for slaughter
UKIP opposes the bedroom tax because it operates unfairly, penalising those who are unable to find alternative accommodation and taking insufficient account of the needs of families and the disabled.
UKIP opposes tolls on public roads and will let existing contracts for running toll roads expire.
UKIP will maintain pensioner bus passes.

Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.
Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.
UKIP supports the recall of MPs as was originally promised in the Coalition Agreement, whereby 20% of the electorate in a constituency must sign a recall petition within eight weeks. The approval of MPs will not be required to initiate a recall petition.
UKIP will introduce the Citizens’ Initiative to allow the public to initiate national referendums on issues of major public interest.

UKIP will ensure that the law is rigorously enforced in relation to ‘cultural’ practices which are illegal in Britain, such as forced marriages, FGM and so-called ‘honour killings’
We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
UKIP will amend the smoking ban to give pubs and clubs the choice to open smoking rooms properly ventilated and separated from non-smoking areas.
[/i]

.
Ignore, wasn't worth the effort

Ignore, wasn't worth the effort

Why is racism a right wing trait

Because science says so.

http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

@BigBut - not just copy and paste there was editing and everything 🙁 - I picked out only the 50%-60% of policies I though where left leaning. Ignoring the issue is the plan most political parties followed with UKIP these past 2 years, that's why they've been allowed to poll/gain 20%-25% of the vote. It's been a big tactical error of the Left to allow UKIP to grow on the basis they would primarily hurt the Tories

@jim, I thought it was worth the effort, always worth reading what the different parties have to say, there's a general election on the way

I should explain, I did read it, made a comment and then realised the [i]comment[/i] I made wasn't worth the effort of pasting as it would just pander to the prejudices displayed in the document cut and pasted. So I deleted the comment.
I do read a great deal of information about politics, but as it is mostly in the papers you have to take it all with a large piece of salt as each has it's own axe to grind in my experience. You just have to see the varied coverage of the Dossier (dodgy?) that Our esteemed Chancellor released yesterday to realise that, as if I didn't know already.
I look forward to discussing the policies when canvassers come to my door. If they do that is as where I am is in such a safe Tory seat no one has ever bothered in the 16 years I have lived here, for any election. For that reason I would prefer proportional representation as then at least they would try for national elections, wouldn't they?!?

SNP and UKIP both seek to differentiate their respective people from those we currently share unions with.
Both resort to gross distortions, and nationalist lingo often appearing unpleasant to acheive this. Both claim their respective countries are overpaying into undemocratic unions. Having successfully made people wish to look after number one, other struggling people within these current unions can be portrayed as faceless, inconsequential or even as scapegoats.

Both parties have in recent years been ran by arrogant bullies with little regard for those with a different sense of national identity than themselves and their supporters.

The main difference is probably that UKIP has not sown up social media the way SNP supporters have. If I was an SNP supporter I would have no shortage of places to go for some Yes self indugence. Sites telling me how great it is to be Scottish, and one day "We will win Scotland back"

Take a step back in terms of policy detail, the parties are closer at heart than many think. People are not switching to the SNP because they suddenly want rid of Trident or wish to see more immigration. They do it because the party helps make them feel different, and we should be looking after ourselves first and kick a poor alien government. Take the outlet of SNP away and you could have someone voting for UKIP.

Who knew a notepad could be a topic of such heated discussion...?

Take the outlet of SNP away and you could have someone voting for UKIP.

Bollox.

Nice and polite too cougs, isn't it??? 😯

That, athgray, is the biggest line of bullshitery ever spouted on STW. Get a grip.

Its just folk who hate the SNP and call them liars and BS etc saying they are like UKIP , as a cheap insult , then complaining the thread is impolite.

You cannot find the lunacy of UKIP, the racists, the ex NF members, the homophobic sexist comments the outward racism etc within the SNP. Even CMD has never referred to them as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.
Anyone who thinks this and thinks that UKIP is not right wing is unlikely to get a job as a political correspondence unless their is a vacancy at Fox news. Its a risible view that I doubt even they believe tbh.
It little more than an exercise in personal prejudice. Its only the SNP haterz from the referendum thread saying this.

Cougar, it's all got a bit more excited and hence run to more pages since I made what I thought was the fairly uncontroversial point that as parties driven by an independence agenda UKIP and the SNP where quite similar.

JY I think the SNP is full of racism, full of people seethingly anti-English. They are just kept a bit more under wraps by a very slick political machine. All those other qualities you mention too, they'll all exist within the SNP as they do in pretty much any large group of people/party

full of people seethingly anti-English

Jambas - a relatively uncontroversial point also made by several political commentators in broadsheets of different political perspectives (with links here). Amazing that it gets the reaction that it does -- sorry not amazing at all, it's clearly a sensitive point that touches a nerve perhaps 😉 hence the lack of reasoned response other than nah, nah and personal stuff.

I guess the leaders' styles also filter down - a trickle down effect that really does work! Thoughtspeak arrives.....

JY, we'll have to disagree on that then. There are many anti-English people in the independence movement generally and the SNP, that's pretty clear.

Next up: jambalaya explains how black really [i]is[/i] white. 😕

I don't think it's ridiculous to claim some parallels between UKIP and the SNP but claiming they are broadly similar, or that the SNP has a similar problem with bigotry, is utterly ludicrous.

It's kind of irrelevant imo, unless something really rocks Westminster between now and June, then the Tories win with a small majority. The SNP gets some gains but nothing like those recently predicted. UKIP and the Greens will get little traction, and the biggest losers will be the Lib Dems, plus Milliband and Balls

Right I'm off to the bookies 😆

There are many anti-English people in the independence movement generally and the SNP, that's pretty clear

hence the lack of reasoned response other than nah, nah and personal stuff

I am not sure that the fact some journalists have said something makes it an irrefutable point. But you clutch at your confirmation bias straw if you want to.

a relatively uncontroversial point also made by several political commentators in broadsheets of different political perspectives (with links here)

Where would these broadsheets be printed?

There's a common thing where people confuse criticism of Westminster with criticism of England and the English. I've never seen any SNP literature that's anti-English. But in the London media bubble that doesn't matter - the SNP don't like Westminster, so the SNP must be anti-English.