[Closed] The book UKIPers are trying to ban

😆 @ reviews.

Even more laughable is the concept of some folk trying to compare UKIP to parties like SNP and the Greens.

Excellent.

@Deadlarcy I think the SNP and UKIP are closer than you think, the main issue for both parties is independence.

The SNP have been competently running a country for years. UKIP can't competently run their own party. They're also poles apart in attitudes to immigrants, the poor, taxation, etc etc.

@Deadlarcy I think the SNP and UKIP are closer than you think, the main issue for both parties is independence.

Course they are, yeah.

Jamba's - don't take that post at face value. Look at the trend and the reason.

@ben SNP's "left wing" credentials are pretty weak, I mean an independent Scotland would have slashed business taxes and both UKIP and the SNP are (where) run by ex bankers. We cannot forget AS championing the TBS takeover of ABN Amro complete with their huge US subprime subsidiary

Anyway I love the "book"

I'm not a SNP supporter, I'm a Green - but comparing them to UKIP is ridiculous.

...but comparing them to UKIP is ridiculous.

Tbf, most unblinkered people know it's BS.

Tbf, most unblinkered people know it's BS.

Yet both the New Statesman, left leaning, and the Spectator, right leaning, have done exactly that - [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/what-snps-breakthrough-tells-us-about-ukips-prospects ]New Statesman[/url] and [url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/04/brothers-in-arms-ukip-and-the-snp-are-one-and-the-same/ ]The Spectator[/url]

e2 e4 😉

The SNP have been competently running a country for years. UKIP can't competently run their own party. They're also poles apart in attitudes to immigrants, the poor, taxation, etc etc.

Playing devils advocate a little here. But....

How well organised was the SNP in 1954/55, could they run a country then. What electoral success had been achieved by this point?

Honest question, I've no idea. And yes, I'm aware the worlds changed a little since the 50s.

As the referendum vote showed, the fact that they don't understand how a currency works is a bit of an inhibitor to running an independent country. And that's according to Scottish voters.

160 pages of farage wit...

Im surprised its more than a single page flyer....

I believ there was an LP in the early 80's called "The Wit and Wisdom of Ronald Reagan" released by Stiff..........it was blank both sides.

TBF it does contain less content than a single page flyer

Why is it ridiculous @ben, independence is the central (only) policy of both parties? If you where putting parties into boxes they'd be in the same box. People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing, watch the election unfold UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one. As per my post above the SNPs corporate tax policies are pretty right wing, they want control of corporate tax so they can slash it.

If you where putting parties into boxes they'd be in the same box.

Only if it was a very big box that said "political party" on it, and even then you'd have to be kind to UKIP as most political parties have actual policies.

Pointlessly trying to class UKIP as right wing? How many UKIP representatives have had to quit for being racist again? It's about one a week.

SNP's "left wing" credentials are pretty weak

Unless you compare them to any other party that's likely to have power anywhere in the UK that is. They're certainly to the left of the Tories and NuLab. The old "Tartan Tory" flag dates back to the days when Labour was a left-wing party.

People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing, watch the election unfold UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one.

The whole left/right wing thing is somewhat devalued now that the main UK parties are both left of centre. NuLab still does contain some left wingers (e.g. Derek Skinner) but they seemed to have missed the fact that the party they're in now is probably to the right of where the Tories where back when they first entered politics.

jambalaya - Member
trust me on this one.

Why?

independence is the central (only) policy of both parties?

The SNP has a few decent policies held together by a theme of human decency (free prescriptions, an NHS not in ruins, free higher education for all). Which is the total opposite of UKIP.

I support the SNP in Scotland but not independence, and doubt I am the only one. I suspect those that support UK but not independence from our biggest trading partner are few and far between.

'Amazon Verified Purchase
This is a con! The book is blank. Went back onto website, and yes it does say this, but only after you have extended the text to Read More... which I didn't do, as I took the title to mean exactly what it said. It was a joke for a friend who supports Nigel, but to give a blank book is an insult.'

The last sentence is truely excellent. Surely if you're intention is to give this as a joke to a Farage supporter the fact that it's blank just emphasises the joke.

Review: "[i]It is literally stuffed with everything witty or intelligent that Farage has ever said, ranging from, ' ' to ' ', and not forgetting of course, the forever quoted classic, ' '.[/i]"

😀

[edit]Never noticed his initials before...

jambalaya - Member

... center and left leaning policies,

You can't lean to the centre. Trust me on this one.

If you where putting parties into boxes they'd be in the same box.

UKIP _ anti EU and pro the UK Union
SNP - Pro the EU anti the UK Union

apart from completely disagreeing on their reason detre yes they are identical and in the the same box

People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing,

You can't lean to the centre. Trust me on this one.

What about if your ground was skewed like if you were on the right side of a ship that was sinking... oh, I don't know, say.. to the right.

I've also noted among the fun political analogies that there seems to be a box shortage.

@Lifer, don't then let's just circle back in May and have a look at the policy announcements UKIP made during the campaign. Farage will announce a variety of policies and many will appeal to left wing voters.

I see Milliband has got the joke and said "never again will we dismiss immigration as an issue" Controlling immigration isn't a left vs right political issue - its across the spectrum.

Pointlessly trying to class UKIP as right wing? How many UKIP representatives have had to quit for being racist again? It's about one a week.

Why is racism a right wing trait?

Answer, it's not. You could have a racist comunist just as much as a racist UKIPer.

We try to pigeion hole every trait of every polictical party in terms of left and right wing but that is not possible. Nationalism is one of trait that cannot be assigned to left or right but nationalism at the extremes can appeal to racists.

An example of this is Labour getting themselves themselves into a tizz about imigration. They've assumed "we are left wing so can't be racist and nationalism is racist so we must allow all imigration". What they failed to do is understand their socilaist priciples meant they needed to look after the poorest in society and these were the people being affected by imigration while the country as a whole and the mega rich got richer.

Uncontrolled imigration is actually a very capitalist approach and capitalism is defined as a right wing trait.

This is also why parties like the SNP and UKIP can't be defined as left or right. They are nationalists (with some messed up ideas linked to Europe) so they pursue nationalist policies which further their own country's agenda.

For the SNP this means free prescripions and higher education as this gives a point of difference to the English and reduced corporation tax as this would attract big business to an independant Scotland (as it did for ROI). These policies are at oposite ends of the political spectrum but are designed to further Scotland's agenda. I have no doubt that if the SNP decided the best way to further Scotland's agenda would be to shit all over the poor then they would do that instead.

For UKIP they don't have such coherent policies so it is hard to tell but they deffinately exhibit both left and right wing polilcies in the name of nationalism.

The SNP had/have plenty of radical RW policies - many that would make a Tory blush. No lender of last resort as this would eliminate moral hazard in banking, Wow, that's straight out of the Adam Smith handbook and totally off-piste for Tories (admittedly this could be simply because they didn't understand the issue instead)

The also share the obvious similarity that there core ideas do not bear up to scrutiny and their leaders both suppress internal and external debate to a v high degree. They appeal to simple protest ideas, but fall over when examined.

Milliband is right and wrong. Immigration is an election issue (because others have shaped the narrative) but it is not an economic problem. It's impact is small and marginally positive - completely contrary to UKIP scaremongering.

EU/immigration has always made party politics confused!!!

SNP's "left wing" credentials are pretty weak.

People on STW are once again pointlessly trying to classify UKIP as right wing, watch the election unfold UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one

hhahahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh
aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhahahahahhahahaHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA That is pure ****ing genius, well done that man

@jfletch makes the point more eloquently than I have managed.

UKIP will announce numerous center and left leaning policies, trust me on this one

[img] https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxgSgjI_rx8IyfmwRwVKONtx-NZ9yfosfaIivP1Hm3yII-jqcnZg [/img]

The whole left/right wing thing is somewhat devalued now that the main UK parties are both left of centre.

😯 😆

Or did you mean right?

The also share the obvious similarity that there core ideas do not bear up to scrutiny

In Scotland the general public has been able to observe 3 types of government in the Scottish Parliament so far, in this order:

1) A NuLab/LibDem coalition (twice)
2) An SNP minority government
3) An SNP majority government

Every indication currently is that the next election will again see an SNP majority. So very much unlike UKIP the SNP have had to stand up to scrutiny as a party of power, and that scrutiny does not appear to have been unfavourable.

UKIP are much more like the SSP who for a while seemed able to sell their mental policies to a small but significant element of the voting population - enough so that they got a few MSP's. Hopefully like the SSP they'll also disintegrate through infighting and other manifest lunancy etc. and will then remove themselves from the political landscape.

Or did you mean right?

That was my deliberate mistake left in to see if anyone was paying attention... 😳

teamhurtmore - Member
As the referendum vote showed, the fact that they don't understand how a currency works is a bit of an inhibitor to running an independent country. And that's according to Scottish voters.

You should change your name to teamdullas****! 😉 change the record!

Why is racism a right wing trait

I am not sure why you have decided nationalism is a type of its own and i sort of get your point. However you can have different views within nationalism
You may as well say the labour party are left wing the radical socialist poarty are left wing so they are the same - its simplistic at best and misleading

They've assumed "we are left wing so can't be racist and nationalism is racist so we must allow all imigration"

here core ideas do not bear up to scrutiny* and their leaders both suppress internal and external debate to a v high degree

* their core ideas are the opposites [ yet you claim they are alike and did not even address the point] and you can agree or disagree with them but the fact you disagree with them both does not make them the same and or them "not bear up to scrutiny - this means THM does not like what they stand for. you are entitled to your view but it is not as you state

I am not sure either party really is a cult of personality or stifles debate internally never mind externally* [ how exactly are they doing that btw - example?] what is your evidence to support this?

* was the referendum an example of the way they stifled debate ? Odd thing to claim tbh

UKIP are bit more cult of Nigel but I still dont think they stifle debate. From the lack of policies it seems more likely they dont actually have one 😉

And that's according to Scottish voters

45% of voters opted for the SNP in the referendum. If any party gets that in the general election they'll have a massive majority and see it as a ringing endorsement of their manifesto. I'm sure that the 35% or so that is all the winning NuLab or Labour government will get in the next election won't see that as a rejection by the public of everything they stand for.

...but comparing them to UKIP is ridiculous.

Tbf, most unblinkered people know it's BS.

their core ideas are the opposites

No, their core idea's are Nationalism. They have defined that nation differently but they are parties founded on self determination based on historical borders.

And they have both gone about furthering their Nationalist ideas in the same way, by proposing populist policies from across the polictial spectrum to gain support for their Nationalist views.

Where they diverge is the policies they have chosen to forward their agenda.

The SNP have moved to the left as this gives them the most support in Scotland but have no issue lunging either way if they think it will be popular with the electorate, from Norway's soverign wealth fund to Irelands corporation tax policies.

UKIP have gone the other way building on peoples fears and predjudces of immigrants (which tends to attract racists even though it's not an inherently racist thing to do), but some of their taxation policies are quite left leaning.

Of course, their core ideas are different in content, the similarity is that they are still both flawed.

Joe, fail to learn from history and you will make the same mistakes. The Scottish voters were clear, the open goal was missed because basic questions on the currency were not answered. If yS fails to understand that you actually have to answer basic but key questions you will never score the goal in the next generations vote!!

BBSB - why thank you, we try our best!

AS suppression of the oil price debate was a clear case of suppressing external debate (the 3Bs giveaway)

The interesting question (confirmed to me by T and L MPs) is that the main parties don't know how to deal with such BS. They are advised to ignore it and re focus on other issues. Meanwhile, the protest parties are able to shape the narrative and public opinion on falsehoods such as the threat of immigration

The interesting question (confirmed to me by T and L MPs)

ohhh thm not prepared to sit back and let jambablaya do all the drivel spouting.

Don't mock, THM deals with politicians and statesmen at the highest level*.

*6th Floor: Lingerie and women's accessories 😉