The awake.

There’s at least one signed up to this site and posting on this thread, perhaps she could explain?

Guessing that's aimed at me? Being unvaxxed does not make one a conspiracy theorist, whatever that means.

Wow, in MTB terms that’s like taking on the Champery World Cup track for your introductory MTB ride, Q-anon is proper out there bonkers..

I think its started out with pro-Trump stuff and gradually went all in (they live in nottingham so no idea why she was worried about the risk to her kids from Hilarys secret underground child abuse ring!)

When covid came along it was tailor made for the conspiracy nuts and thats when it got worse, more time on the web, less time with real people, and the anti-vax world was already a hotbed of conspiracy and pseudo-science

Sorry for your mate, must have been horrendous to lose someone to that nonsense

He's very much a bloke who keeps his issues to himself and even though Id had hints (another mate had argued with her about some facebook stuff) when he fully opened up about it all was quite a shock. He'd been trying to navigate this stuff for years and stopping his kids from being impacted

The term “conspiracy theorist” was weaponised by the intelligence agencies to shut down people questioning the official narrative around JFK’s assassination. 

Ahh, the JFK assassination conspiracy theory, they feel like more innocents days, don't they? When conspiracy theories seemed plausible and the only consequence was a healthy questioning of authority.
I was fairly young when Oliver Stone's JFK came out, and at the time I happily accepted this as the truth. It wasn't until conspiracy theories became increasingly deranged and damaging that I reevaluated the JFK stuff and thought maybe that is horseshit also, and he probably was just killed by Lee Harvey Oswald acting as a lone nutter

I'm guessing that the people who believe in conspiracy theories are the same people who are at risk of being taken advantage of by a cult, and that the main reason that it is happening more often now is that the internet has given the people who want to take that advantage access into everyones homes? So, the motive has remained unchanged but the means and opportunity is now, sadly, radically different?

The term “conspiracy theorist” was weaponised by the intelligence agencies to shut down people questioning the official narrative around JFK’s assassination. And just this week now we’ve had mainstream media in the US tell everyone the CIA killed JFK.

"Cancelled bank accounts, PayPal as they are globalists"

You know that PayPal closed the accounts of the Free Speech Union and others because they didn't agree with their politics? The FSU in case you don't know has helped fight high profile cases through the High Court, eg where police have logged a non crime hate incident and harassed someone for liking a tweet.
This isn't far fetched conspiracy stuff, it's been taken on by members of parliament who are trying to change law so financial providers can't close accounts of those they disagree with on political points.

There's a growing body of evidence on mrna vaccine harm, including many voices within the medical profession.

Of course there are people who over obsess about these issues, but closing a PayPal account in protest at their actions in denying funds to a free speech organisation, or being a bit untrusting about covid vaccine is hardly an extreme position.

Hobnobs or Bourbons...

Oh dear

You know that PayPal closed the accounts of the Free Speech Union and others because they didn’t agree with their politics?

a) PayPal isn't a bank, and isn't regulated the same as one.
b) No-one should be using it as if it were i.e. holding their primary funds.
c) The accounts were suspended (not "closed") due to a perceived breach of the T&Cs. This happens all the time (see b), just ask anyone who does a lot of eBaying. You may be think that the reason was political, but AFAIK there's no actual proof of that
d) Less than 10 days later the accounts were re-instated, PP apologised, and re-affirmed their "support for freedom of expression"

global conspiracy, honest mistake, or just something that happened & was dealt with?

global conspiracy, honest mistake, or just something that happened & was dealt with?

Toby Young is the publisher of The Daily Sceptic. Censorship pure and simple.

. It wasn’t until conspiracy theories became increasingly deranged and damaging that I reevaluated the JFK stuff and thought maybe that is horseshit also, and he probably was just killed by Lee Harvey Oswald acting as a lone nutter

The book the film was based on was an interesting read, the story of the original investigation. (On the Trail of the Assassins by Jim Garrison, iirc)

I think conflating JFK theories with QAnon is stretching a disservice to those original conspiracy theorists.

this toby young?
the one that claimed he had no idea how he made it onto eppstein/maxwells contact list?

makes you think... 😉

Hes a grifter plain & simple and he really does push a lot of terrible 'science' on his daily sceptic, from climate to covid he uses some absolutely hilarious self-referencing 'sources'

Theres absolutely a case for questioning scientific theories, but if he wants to be seen as credible and not just by the easily led who are blinded by confirmation bias, he really needs to use credible sources

Toby Young is the publisher of The Daily Sceptic. Censorship pure and simple.

There’s a growing body of evidence on mrna vaccine harm

Harm is a loaded term, but I suspect you know that. Most medicines have side effects, ranging from minor to severe including death. Any kind of surgery under general anaesthesia carries the risk of death.

mrna vaccines are relatively new and we have a growing body of evidence that helps us understand the risk vs benefit to particular groups, for example pregnant women were initially excluded as there was not enough evidence from early testing.

Christ, I am having flashbacks to 2020 now.

Toby Young is the publisher of The Daily Sceptic. Censorship pure and simple.

From the New Statesman of all places:

Yet the issue highlights one of the key misunderstandings that we often have about Big Tech platforms. Just because they appear to be public utilities, and are ubiquitous, we expect them to be required to follow a more significant, scrutinised code of conduct. But they’re not. They’re private companies, with their own rules and regulations. If we don’t like it, we can lump it: as an ardent supporter of conservative causes, Young will know that competition in a free-market economy is king.

But scratch beneath the surface of Young’s claims and you begin to realise that the ban may be more justified than people think. This isn’t just a rabble-rouser trying to keep the home fires burning in a fictitious, bubbly culture war. A Times report has alleged that one of the reasons why PayPal closed the accounts down was for spreading Covid vaccine misinformation – a real harm that puts lives at risk. The R value of false information discouraging people from taking up the offer of perfectly safe vaccines outstrips that of the virus that has killed, to date, 6.5 million people.

PayPal declined to comment on specific cases, but said that it “regularly assesses activity against our long-standing acceptable use policy and will discontinue our relationship with account holders who are found to violate our policies”.

The payments company does have a long-standing issue with banning companies and individuals from using its services, or withholding their cash, without justification. I’ve previously reported on PayPal holding back far more money than Young would likely have in his accounts – and have been inundated with similar stories. Those examples seem to have little explanation, unlike the banning of Young’s accounts, which have been pinned to allegations that he spread misinformation.

The decision is also not as dramatic as Young – whose career has relied on over-egging his strife like a put-upon puppy – makes out. He’s not being silenced, and is not a cri de coeur for certain griftier fringe personalities. He’s still entitled to his opinions, no matter how wrong they may be.

It’s just that PayPal has decided it doesn’t want him to profit from them.

It’s an approach that Young would likely recognise from one of the favourite cases of the anti-woke free speech brigade: if a bakery is allowed to withhold business from customers wanting it to bake a gay cake, why can’t PayPal withhold its services from someone with whom it disagrees?

all these scientists are faking the results purely to ensure they continue getting funding. Again it’s a nice way to discredit covid stuff too as the scientists there were all lying just to get more funding

To be fair, there is a sad and sorry history of scientists actually doing this, which really doesn’t help matters.

As far as the orange dots on that map are concerned, what it doesn’t show are the very large numbers of small bases China is setting up all around that area as it lays claim to huge parts of other countries economic zones. And also it’s expansion into Africa, although that’s being cut back as it’s economy falters.

And also not to ignore the ongoing conflicts along the India/China border in the mountains.

Then there’s North Korea, and it’s rhetoric about Japan’s increasing military expenditure. Russia has form in that area as well.

Chewkw, American and British presence in the Pacific is a response to increasing threats from belligerent and aggressive countries like those mentioned. And don’t forget they’re also threatening countries like Australia and Aotoreoa/New Zealand, who both have historic ties to the U.K.

Harm is a loaded term, but I suspect you know that.

I'm going to suggest you are being kind, and he doesn't know that, or is just choosing to ignore/see selected facts. Ditto the Paypal closing accounts thing... and YouTube, Facebook will happily feed similar rubbish once you've seen one thing

There’s a growing body of evidence on mrna vaccine harm, including many voices within the medical profession.

Citation needed. There are no vaccines, or any other medical procedure or drug that doesn’t carry a risk of some sort. Just look at the packaging with any over-the-counter remedy. mRNA treatments have been around since the early 70’s, but are still being developed, and of course some people will react adversely. I have personal experience with this.
Anyone remember Thalidomide? That had terrible results on a generation of children, but it’s still in use successfully, but with greater knowledge of its side effects.

One of the mRNA side effects is reduced blood platelet count, along with clotting. The contraceptive pill does the same. As does pregnancy.
Please explain how to go about balancing those risks.

all these scientists are faking the results purely to ensure they continue getting funding. Again it’s a nice way to discredit covid stuff too as the scientists there were all lying just to get more funding

To be fair, there is a sad and sorry history of scientists actually doing this, which really doesn’t help matters.

Some no doubt, but not all. It's like accusing any population subset of adopting the same behaviour based on the actions of a select few

There’s a growing body of evidence on mrna vaccine harm, including many voices within the medical profession.

There’s a growing body of evidence on mrna vaccine benefit, including many voices within the medical profession.

Which body of evidence is larger? And how many voices on each side?

Build back better

Now a conspiracy theorist would say that a large number of the world's politicians appear to be following a script. Are they wrong?

^^^ that video played following the advert for "this jet engineer just discovered how to heat homes for almost zero cost" 😂 how appropriate

assuming I can't be arsed to watch a video by the "Whyte Wyzard", what's the TL;DW?

Regarding bodies of evidence, point missed.
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

speed may have come at the cost of data integrity and patient safety. A regional director who was employed at the research organisation Ventavia Research Group has told The BMJ that the company falsified data, unblinded patients, employed inadequately trained vaccinators, and was slow to follow up on adverse events reported in Pfizer’s pivotal phase III trial. Staff who conducted quality control checks were overwhelmed by the volume of problems they were finding. After repeatedly notifying Ventavia of these problems, the regional director, Brook Jackson (video 1), emailed a complaint to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Ventavia fired her later the same day.

That's just one report. There's plenty more out there. So perhaps redneck cousin Jeb in Australia has a perfectly good reason for harbouring various suspicions. It's only a short while ago that we were forced to stay at home unless shopping for essentials, and then only if we followed arrows on the floor while wearing useless masks, at pain of arrest. I don't think you can blame an upswell of dissent on "the internet".

I think it's clips of people saying "build back better" but I'm not sure what it's got to do with paypal or mrna vaccines that grimep was previously talking about.

I think this thread is about conspiracy theories, the WEF was mentioned?

Build back better... Conspiracy theorists.... The WEF...

Is this all news to you guys?

https://www.weforum.org › 2020/07 To build back better, we will have to reinvent capitalism">World Economic Forum https://www.weforum.org › 2020/07 To build back better, we will have to reinvent capitalism

Now a conspiracy theorist would say that a large number of the world’s politicians appear to be following a script. Are they wrong?

They are not wrong based on the evidence from the video clip. These are dangerous people at the helm sometimes causing massive problems in the world.

The video clip is funny in that the politicians etc are trying to use slogans like "build back better" or "great re-set" as if most mortals can only digest simple key words. Are they trying to compete with Trump's slogan of "MAGA"? LOL! Talking about the lack of imagination and what a bunch of insanity. Some of them should retire peacefully rather than adding fuel to fire.

Most people in power only can only see things their own way and always think they are above ordinary mortals. Power has got to their main brain like a virus. (the song from Cyprus Hill "insane in the brain" comes to mind).

Politicians have always spouted stuff like that
Constructing a conspiracy theory out of it seems a remarkable waste of time!

Anyway whats really going to set the crazies off is that there are loads of new mRNA vaccines in the pipeline, against Malaria, Herpes, TB, Ebola, a combined flu & covid one, shingles... all in trials now or shortly- stuff that could have a huge impact on real world problems and this type of mRNA delivery tech was really pioneered for use against cancer and theres still lots of progress being made there too.

It would be terrible if that work is blocked or uptake reduced because of some ridiculous conspiracy peddling grifters

It would be terrible if that work is blocked or uptake reduced because of some ridiculous conspiracy peddling grifters

Problem is who is right in the age of information/disinformation?

Is this all news to you guys?

No, everyone is familiar with it. Its a well trodden predicable path that, I dare say, most of us know whats going to be typed before it is.

and then only if we followed arrows on the floor.

I never followed the arrows. Makes you think.

I never followed the arrows.

You were probably on the receiving end of one my Very Hard Stares

Honestly I even got openly tutted at once. I felt the shame of it all the way down the empty dried pasta shelves...

I preferred lockdown. The solemn one way silent march around the supermarket was much better than the current chaos and trolley rage.

My local Tesco had a loop that you couldn't escape in the bread isle if you didn't disobey the arrows. Thankfully we all made it out alive (as far as I'm aware) .

BBC sounds have a good series on disaster trolls as further evidence of bonkers conspiracy theorists.

Unfortunately most conspiracy theories has grains of truth but with big leaps between the grains.

scientists have always challenged other scientists, the fact that some are querying safety of vaccines is to be applauded. But they also listen to the evidence and are prepared to convince and be convinced, which is where IMHO the 'alternative' end of the profession falls down. Where weight of evidence is too often in itself presented as 'evidence' that it's all a conspiracy.

Re the fusion, I have an issue with the way it's being reported myself. I'm not smart enough to fully understand the science but a scientist I know and respect (and most definitely not a quack) has queried the energy balance equation - eg: the 2MJ in of the 2 in / 3 out doesn't include the power to actually run the multiple lasers, just the power in the laser beams themselves. And lasers are very inefficient in turning electricity into light energy - between 1 and 20% estimated. So running the lasers themselves will consume far more than the output.

And that's before scalability - they can run one experiment every couple of weeks and that is likely to be in excess of $1M a time. To get enough to boil a few kettles.

Now, it may / will be the start of something, not least improving efficiency of lasers! But the popular reporting making it sound like it's a few years away is overstated, it's still unlikely to be in my lifetime (and I'm only 53)

That’s just one report.

It's a shame it doesn't actually say any of the things that the anti-vaxxers claim it does then. That BMJ article is peculiar in many ways, and the most worrying aspect of all is that the BMJ actually published it. Plenty of analysis of why it isn't the smoking gun you seem to think it is, if you'd care to do your own research.

Re the fusion, I have an issue with the way it’s being reported myself

I thought that they had already admitted that they hadn't counted all the power needed to run all the ancillary equipment?

Honestly I even got openly tutted at once. I felt the shame of it all the way down the empty dried pasta shelves…

🤣

I thought that they had already admitted that they hadn’t counted all the power needed to run all the ancillary equipment?

The scientists themselves have documented accurately, I mean the way the popular press report it - at least in headlines and news clips, the actual articles go into more depth. The issue being that i/ it creates a false expectation, and ii/ that when it isn't the answer to the prayers in the next 5 years, the public feel they've been let down and it decays the trust in science itself (and fuels the what else aren't they telling us / don't trust scientists narrative)

Sabine usually does a good summary…

Also mentions a paper on methane levels during Covid, which I’m sure the usual climate groups will jump on as evidence climate change is a hoax

Sabine usually does a good summary…

Does anyone else find that she talks like Alan Rickman?

Rule 1: Verify the credibility of the sources
Rule 2: See above

On that year-old BMJ piece...

Scientists love nothing more than picking holes in (other scientists') science. It's kind of the whole point of the exercise, which makes the anti-science folks notion that they're all supporting the same football team rather ridiculous. But that's not really what was going on with the BMJ bit. The framing is more that of an ongoing campaign to improve clinical trials, including say that all should be registered and reported, regardless of 'negative' or inconclusive findings. Commercial funders have preferred not to do this when it's served their commercial interests not to. (Don't pay an organisation to do one thing and expect them to do anything different.)

The BMJ has also been on the right side of campaigns to reduce bias in research (bias is just normal), improve quality (which can almost always be improved), make data openly available (it's often not been), improve regulation, and call out fraud when it occurs (actual fraud is rare, but institutions are not incentivised to broadcast it when it happens).

And given the speed and importance of coming up with covid vaccines, it shouldn't be flabbergasting to find that some contractors have have cut a few corners. This is clearly v bad, but the fact whistles were blown and stories came out is good. Even if the anti-vax crew very predictably used them to negative ends.

Slightly amusing is the BMJ editors' pique - see their resultant response with my edits below because it's a long one in an open letter to Mark Zuckerberg

Readers were directed to a “fact check” performed by a Facebook contractor named Lead Stories.[2]
We find the “fact check” performed by Lead Stories to be inaccurate, incompetent and irresponsible.
-- It fails to provide any assertions of fact that The BMJ article got wrong
-- It has a nonsensical title: “Fact Check: The British Medical Journal Did NOT Reveal Disqualifying And Ignored Reports Of Flaws In Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Trials”
-- The first paragraph inaccurately labels The BMJ a “news blog” ( 🙂 )
-- It contains a screenshot of our article with a stamp over it stating “Flaws Reviewed,” despite the Lead Stories article not identifying anything false or untrue in The BMJ article
-- It published the story on its website under a URL that contains the phrase “hoax-alert”

Though the worry, obv, is the relative reach of Facebook (who were ineptly trying to do the right thing) vs a conventional medical journal (apparently on the side of the baddies).

actually, run out of time. It's here: https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635/rr-80