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Can anyone explain why all the officers or squad leaders or people in positions of authority always sound like tiffs or certainly public school educated? Surely in the military it is the average soldier who would be better equiped to rise through the ranks to lead their team etc. I have never heard one regional dialect from anyone in the army in one of the more senior positions. If I was in the army is would piss me off no end!!!
Officer class dear boy, graduated from Sandhurst don't you know. 🙂
if you join the army out of school at 16 as a last resort, maybe you are seen as lacking a certain something that is thought to be necessary? ie, summers spent by Lake Garda etc
my mate Daz is a RN officer and he sounds well 'artforshire, innit!
A few lads from my (local secondary) school are also army officers, one in particular is proper Devonshire and he was a captain last time I met him a few years ago.
it used to be a class thing in the 17-1800's though didn't it? Ie you purchased your commission and then bought your way out of it if you didn't like it?
some posh people become officers, OTC is a big recruiting ground in university and a lot of people have their fees paid by the respective forces. Some officers are common as muck and tyre questions. However, officers are taught to act and speak "properly" perhaps being well spoken is part of that?
They teach them to do everything from wipe their arses to talk.
A mate of mine is ex-army and was fairly senior. He's a scouser, but you'd never know from talking to him. He sounds normal.
^^Wot meehaja said, innit^^
I know of people from all walks of life in all levels of the forces. Takes all sorts.
???squad leaders
It's not as bad in some regts/corps as in others (the guards etc).
I've heard plenty of ruperts with regional accents.
They are not really listened to or respected until they react captain.
Sandhurst officer cadets are about 60% state educated these days, is a real mix. Sure, public schoolboys are there in disproportionate numbers but that is hardly surprising. Son follows father and all that.
A lot of the time the guys speaking to the media are commanding infantry or cavalry units and they are more likely to be toffs. Engineers, Gunners, Air Corp, Paras much less so.
If I was in the army is would piss me off no end!!!
I doubt it would mate.
Bloody Ruperts,I was one and grew up next to Birkenhead docks, had elocution lessons and everything.
I was in the Royal Signals, and most of our officers had regional accents. We even had a Scottish one, with a proper Scottish accent!
Having said that, we also had a Scottish Officer (Black Watch) whose family owned large chunks of Scotland. If it hadn't been for the tartan trousers, you'd have never have guessed where he came from, as he had a voice that would have put a 140's BBC radio announcer to shame - very received pronunciation!
Private schools have cadet forces, most state schools don't. The cadet forces are the main intake for Westbury & Sandhurst. It helps to come from a school with a strong military tradition, or at least it helped my cousin.
Can anyone explain why all the officers or squad leaders or people in positions of authority always sound like tiffs
A very good point.
I've also noticed that those in the upper echelons of management, very often speak quite posh ........... what's that all about then ? 😕
If you sound like a half-wit you don't get promoted. If you're too thick to work this out if proves the point 😉
Elitism in modern day British society ? Surely not ?
My brother learnt to talk posh at Sandhurst. He spoke normally before that, but now sounds like the rest of them. He also now only wears boots that don't have laces, and corduroy trousers. He's a marvellous chap mind.
One is taught to speak in a manner that is easily heard and understood by all. This can smooth out the rough edges of regional accents. However, within my peer group there were those who clearly hadn't been effected. The very high ranks inevitably came from the "proper" background and therefore do tend to talk real proper like.
Andrew Grant, chair of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference..........................
And he added that without them ( fee paying schools) "Britain would not have enough officers to lead its army."
From the grauniad of course
I'm the first Noteeth in 150 years [i]not[/i] to become an Army Officer - and none of them would ever have described themselves as being the "elite."
On the other hand, [i]"Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a nurse."[/i] 8) 😀
Had no idea Chris! How's the anthropologising on the side going?
Ian C in Helsinki
noteeth, there's still time. Maybe the TA?
They might sound like toffs but all the young army officers i know and work with are as thick as mince and have no life experience!!
This only partly explains it but all of the studies on leadership do show that there is a correlation between intelligence and leadership. There are many other variable/environmental factors of course, but intelligence is one of the foundations.
Having established that as a fact, then naturally you would expect leaders in any field to have had good schooling (and private education is typically, although not exclusively, very good); that you see this evident in the army is not unique to the army, just that senior army leadership positions tend to be high profile. Indeed, if you look at any senior leader in say a FTSE100 you will see excellent academic results and perhaps disproportionately more of them are privately schooled.
There is, I think, a pressure to conform to an "expected norm", which is learnt from the people that do the training who generally themselves conform to an unsaid rule that officers speak a certain way. It's true that a lot of senior NCO adopt an equally distinctive way of speaking all their own as well. Remember also that a lot of Officers are themselves the sons and daughters of Officers, and speak like that really only because that's how they talk at home.
[i]Had no idea Chris! How's the anthropologising on the side going?[/i]
Hello mate - am good, thanks. Halfway thru' my MA - and then back to Bristol when I'm done! Very busy, but it's going well. Still riding the Bontrager...
How's the Palaeontology (and all that lovely boreal singletrack)?
Renton, how old were you when you joined crabfat?
I was an officer and rarely met these 'toffs' you talk about. I think you are just overly affected by media stereotyping.
I think you are just overly affected by media stereotyping.
Nonsense, it's all true ....... here you are :
backhander, i was 21 when i joined the RAF after having worked in various jobs since the age of 17.
cheers
steve
It might seem an unfair system, but given that the British Army is generally regarded to be the best in the world, it's a system that obviously works, and shouldn't be tampered with in the interests of being PC.
...given that the British Army is generally regarded to be the best in the world
That comment always makes chuckle !
Nothing wrong with believing that the 'British army is the best in the world' of course. It's just that I find this assumption that everyone else in the world agrees really rather quaint 😀
Somehow I can't help thinking that the Americans, Russians, and Chinese, might just for example, prefer to nominate another army.
Although the one which has always impressed me, is the Vietnamese army. Not only did it give the American army a bleedin good spanking, but in Feb 1979 they halted a massive Chinese invasion consisting of a quarter of a million men and hundreds of tanks along the whole of the Sino–Vietnamese border - after it had only penetrated 5 miles into Vietnam. And consequently the Chinese failed in their objectives.
Bearing in mind how poorly equipped the Vietnamese army must have been in comparison, and also the fact that Vietnamese forces only numbered about 70,000 , the Vietnamese army must be one heck of a fighting force.
BTW, China only attack Vietnam because they knew that all of Vietnam's elite troops were in Cambodia after having overthrown Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.
Though I hate to admit it, apparently the Israelis are quite handy too. Is there a league table of best armies on Wiki?
Is there a league table of best armies on Wiki?
Well according to Stephen Fry on Qi, quote :
[i]"You would want a Frenchman on your side in a fight because the French are one of the best countries in the world when it comes to war, despite their cowardly reputation. According to historian Niall Ferguson, of the 125 major European wars fought since 1495, France has taken part in 50, which is more than Austria (47) and England (43). Out of 168 battles fought since 387 BC, France has won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10."[/i]
I remember that very episode. Not bad for "cheese eating blah blah".
oh dear, all these opinions on good soldiers and bad soldiers.
soldiers are not bikes!
i was a soldier, like wheelz, started in royal signals, finished up a spell with 3rd btln paras and the accent thing is bollocks, maybe years ago maybe perhaps, but not in my time (i came out mid 80s!)and my friend who says...........
ernie_lynch - Member
...given that the British Army is generally regarded to be the best in the world
That comment always makes chuckle !
Nothing wrong with believing that the 'British army is the best in the world' of course. It's just that I find this assumption that everyone else in the world agrees really rather quaint
Somehow I can't help thinking that the Americans, Russians, and Chinese, might just for example, prefer to nominate another army.
Although the one which has always impressed me, is the Vietnamese army. Not only did it give the American army a bleedin good spanking, but in Feb 1979 they halted a massive Chinese invasion consisting of a quarter of a million men and hundreds of tanks along the whole of the Sino–Vietnamese border - after it had only penetrated 5 miles into Vietnam. And consequently the Chinese failed in their objectives.
Bearing in mind how poorly equipped the Vietnamese army must have been in comparison, and also the fact that Vietnamese forces only numbered about 70,000 , the Vietnamese army must be one heck of a fighting force.
BTW, China only attack Vietnam because they knew that all of Vietnam's elite troops were in Cambodia after having overthrown Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.
last sentence may have some point for discussion but there is a lot lot more around it! the opening bit, emmm yes, i actually (up to mid 80s) would tend to agree in terms of training, equipment,difference, reliability, leadership
but ultimately
strategy, geography, motivation,equipment - largely determine a good or bad fit!!pound for pound and all things even, the british (as long as you can include the great gurka regt)were, without doubt, the best equipped, best trained, and most feared force in the world (of course that changed once i left!!!!)
Well ive got to say my dad came from bury joined as boy soldier at 15 and just recently retired a Major so its not all jobs for the boys.
Deadly - with reference to the 'Israelis being quite handy' remember that earlier this year it [i]unbelievably[/i] took the Israelis about 3 weeks to enter Gaza City. Despite the fact that Gaza City is only a couple of miles from the Israeli border. And despite the fact that they had carried out relentless bombardment from land sea and air. And despite the fact that the people of Gaza have no army navy or airforce.
However I will accept that this was probably more due to cowardice, than poor fighting skills. Although of course Hezbollah did finally drive out the Israeli army out of South Lebanon on 2000.
With regard to that "best army in the world" statement, I pretty much stand by it, and not just out of a sense of patriotism. The only army that could put forward an equal claim is maybe the IDF.
Good thanks Chris, those singletracks are a bit tundra like at the moment, about 5cms of snow and ice beneath it! My Bonty has ended up being the ice bike (cos I can't get the damned studded tyres off it!) so seeing plenty of use at the moment 🙂 Good luck with the rest of your course, we're hitting Bristol in the new year for a few days...
[i]My Bonty has ended up being the ice bike[/i]
Ha, not something that's likely to happen in rainy Southampton...
Have a good time in San Fran Bristo - are you sneaking back for [url= http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6632.html ]this[/url]? 😉