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Firstly it rather depends on why they are being stopped and searched.
You could say the same thing about the disparity of searches between black and white - yet the raw figures without this context have been repeatedly used on here to justify claims of institutional racism.
Sauce for the goose and all that.
I think ninfan has Asperger's syndrome but maybe doesn't realise it.
Kryton57
Subscriber
Are you really that ignorant / blind ninfan after 30 pages?Meanwhile 2 GB athletes hauled out of their car in front their kid in the back seat all filmed by Linford Christie because the police “thought they could smell weed in the police vehicle which was behind them”.
Jeez! I haven't read most of this post and dipped in this morning just to see what the gist of the thread was.
This quote above is one of the reasons that false crap spreads so fast on the internet....
Filmed by Linford Christe....NO. He shared a video of the incident. HE did not film it.
Secondly - if you read what was actually going on, the police were specifically patrolling in the area because of an increase in youth violence.
They saw a blacked out car driving on the wrong side of the road & tried to stop it. It didn't stop, but made off. When they eventually stopped it the driver initially refused to get out of the car....
The reports say that there was later an accusation that the car smelt of weed & it was searched - but that was NOT the reason the car was stopped.
I am not saying the Police are erm, whiter than white in every situation but if I was driving on the wrong side of the road & the Police saw me I'd probably expect to be stopped.
I probably wouldn't drive off.
If you watch any of the Police docu-programmes on TV one of the sure fire ways of getting chased by police & hauled out of your car is by refusing to stop your car & driving off...
You hear her refer to Section 1 of PACE. That’s a search for weapons, not drugs.
"Williams and Dos Santos said that a written report given to them by police did not mention driving on the wrong side of the road, and that where they stopped is a single car-width road."
Ok, I'll admit to not reading the content properly in my rush this morning but:
Liar
Be careful with your vocabulary ninfan, I didn't set out to lie deliberately and you coming on here acting like a racist antagonistic dick doesn't help anybody.
the police were specifically patrolling in the area because of an increase in youth violence.
So why not pick up some white kids?
It didn’t stop, but made off. When they eventually stopped it the driver initially refused to get out of the car….
Maybe they were shitting themselves regarding the large police presence and know racial bias.
the Police saw me I’d probably expect to be stopped.
They weren't but even so, statistics would show that thats less like;ly but not untrue if your white, and I'm going to make a grand assumption based on everything else you've said that you are indeed very white.
Having worked with the police in Edinburgh a bit I do understand where the bias comes from - its confirmation bias mainly. Even in Edinburgh where there is only a small BAME population they get undue attention from cops but this tended to be the unthinking racism by lack of understanding rather than overt racism and racial profiling
There is no doubt at all that racism in the Met is a serious issue and needs to be addressed and Ninfan did make the odd good point in that when you are stopped so often by cops for being a black man driving it becomes hard to remain co operative and pleasant and that then reinforces the cops view making their actions less gentle then that in turn makes the stopped person less cooperative
'I didn’t set out to lie deliberately' Bloody hell!!! 🙂
“Williams and Dos Santos said that a written report given to them by police did not mention driving on the wrong side of the road, and that where they stopped is a single car-width road.”
Perhaps if Ms Williams’ video hadn’t been edited to finish at the exact point the police officer explained the reason for stopping and searching them there wouldn’t be such a cause for dispute over what they were told?
Makes you think, eh?
So why not pick up some white kids?
Perhaps because they didn’t encounter any white kids in a car with blacked out windows, on the wrong side of the road, that sped off when indicated to stop?
it becomes hard to remain co operative and pleasant and that then reinforces the cops view making their actions less gentle then that in turn makes the stopped person less cooperative
But there's another reason, and thats where systemic racism drops into this; In the main and in part because of the past, black people are stronger willed and less passive - certain than the British white culture. They find any invasion of thier person or property highly invasive. If our police force understood that and reacted accordingly, it might help.
Instead the principle systemic racist mindset provide a vision of " the angry black man" and the next thing you know a mother next a baby is being yanked out of here car and thrown in handcuff. Imagine how frightening that is to be unable to protect your child, let alone the rest.
‘I didn’t set out to lie deliberately’ Bloody hell!!! 🙂
Thats right, whats your problem? I have more than enough history on hear and people know I don't deliberately lie any post, let alone once as emotive as this. I admitted to my mistakes so kindly drop the false accusations, thanks.
Perhaps because they didn’t encounter any white kids in a car with blacked out windows, on the wrong side of the road, that sped off when indicated to stop?
Your facts have already been proven to be wrong.
Perhaps if Ms Williams’ video hadn’t been edited to finish at the exact point the police officer explained the reason for stopping and searching them there wouldn’t be such a cause for dispute over what they were told?
Makes you think, eh?
And of course you wilfully miss the point - I know what that makes me think.
I admitted to my mistakes so kindly drop the false accusations,
You are the met police and I claim my five pounds
In the main and in part because of the past, black people are stronger willed and less passive – certain than the British white culture. They find any invasion of thier person or property highly invasive. If our police force understood that and reacted accordingly, it might help.
Just to check, you’re suggesting that the police should treat black people differently from white because they are “stronger willed” than white people, and “find any invasion of thier person or property highly invasive“
Right?
Just to check, you’re suggesting that the police should treat black people differently from white people because they are “stronger willed” than white people, and “find any invasion of thier person or property highly invasive“
I'm not going to pander to your obvious strategy Ninfan. If you'd bothered to be properly interested - well, you aren't because you're racially biased - you'd notice that the call for equality does not call for people to be generalised but to be recognised. There's a difference.
So that’s a yes then, right?
The Magic solution to racism is to treat people differently on the basis of their skin colour.
Glory be!
I can’t think why nobody has ever come up with it before?
No its not, its about recognising the situation in front of you and dealing with it correctly, not falling into slam-dunk strategy based on a systemic racially profiled thought process.
That was a mother protecting and scared for her child in an aggressive situation, regardless of the color of her skin. And we've all learned a lot in here about "what we don't know that it means to be white" to know that her Flight, Fight, or Freeze instincts were likely higher up the chart than mine would have been.
Please feel free to post up a video of hitherto innocent white mother being dragged out of a car, thrown to the ground and handcuffed recently.
Kryton57
SubscriberSo why not pick up some white kids?
Maybe the also did? I am not aware of a full list of people they stopped & their ethnicity.
I’m going to make a grand assumption based on everything else you’ve said that you are indeed very white.
Yes. I am white.
I've been stopped by the Police several times for various reasons. While still living at my parent's I was stopped twice (with a white friend in tow both times) while coming out of the end of my road because there had been a spate of burglaries in the area, the road is a cul-de-sac & the police wanted to know what we were doing down there. We were split up, questioned separately, had our pockets searched & then the two Police officers conferred to make sure our stories matched. we then went on our way.
I was stopped while driving my car - slightly ridiculously I thought at the time - for having my foglights on when it wasn't foggy. I think it was just an excuse to stop me - but I did stop. It was pretty murky in the area I was actually stopped in & about 1/2 a mile down the road it had definitely been foggy enough to justify using them.
FWIW & to give you some background. I am white. I grew up in Wembley which is in the London Borough of Brent - at the time the most ethnically diverse borough in London. Most of my friends were from ethnic backgrounds; mainly asian, but I knew a large amount of black people.
In my year at school there was about 120 kids, with ~20 white people & the rest being 'ethnic minorities'.
At my school, white people were the ethnic minority. I really liked it - I got to see a breadth of culture & lifestyles that many people are never able to experience. Now having moved to the Cambs/Lincs border I regret not making more of the opportunity I had given how 'white' this area is.
Our neighbours in Wembley were (and still are) the Akhtars to one side who my family have a great relationship with & the Patels on the other side who were quite rude & obnoxious - the boy used to enjoy throwing pieces of wire at our cat. They've moved out and there's now a West Indian family in the house who my parent's get on well with & I always have a chat with them if I see them when I'm down there visiting.
Over the road we had the Wilsons; a family from Jamaica who we always played with growing up & the McDonald's - a black family although I confess to not knowing where they were from. The Mum was on the Tesco cooking adverts a couple of years ago.
I used to run for Thames Valley Harriers and somewhat unrelated but coincidentally have met Linford Christie several times (he is a Thames Valley athlete & the stadium was renamed from West London Stadium to Linford Christie stadium in his honour). We used to regularly give a lift to a runner from an immigrant Somalian family down the road.
My mates and I were regularly racially abused by groups of black kids and asian kids - mainly while walking home from school. Most of it was just shouting names & acting lairy.
So yes, Kryton - I am white. But please don't assume that means I have no knowledge of ethnic diversity & have lived my whole life in some kind of 'white bubble'.
Yes. I am white.
Your life matters too!
That was a mother protecting and scared for her child in an aggressive situation, regardless of the color of her skin.
Oh, the police should best just let anyone go if there’s a woman and child in the car then, that’ll end well.
Please feel free to post up a video of hitherto innocent white mother being dragged out of a car, thrown to the ground and handcuffed recently.
That video doesn’t show Ms Williams being “dragged out of a car, thrown to the ground and handcuffed”
Ninfan, did you read any of the information I posted?
Yes, I've asked a lot of questions to encourage you to think. You haven't actually answered any of mine. I've provided two links to evidence of institutional racism, do you know what it is?
"Institutional racism is that which, covertly or overtly, resides in the policies, procedures, operations and culture of public or private institutions - reinforcing individual prejudices and being reinforced by them in turn."
A. Sivanandan, Director, Institute of Race Relations
You want numbers as evidence, yet the data you've provided could also be used to demonstrate that institutional racism does exist. There's been no study of the police to determine the extent of racism in the force and how it is applied to their daily duties. Yet, we can see through a vast amount of individual cases that it does exist and that it is recognised by government agencies and independent institutions. Your comparison to conspiracy theories doesn't reflect well on your character and highlights your own ignorance.
I can't comment on sexism in the police, although I've no doubt that it occurs it's not my area of interest. I'm not going to answer your questions as they have no relevance to the discussion. It's quite clear that you have no interest in participating in the discussion other than to claim **** lives matter. I've no interest in engaging with you further, until you have read the information I've provided.
Until the 12th these books from Cambridge Press are free to read
https://www.cambridge.org/core/what-we-publish/journals/protests-policing-and-race#
I think ninfan has Asperger’s syndrome but maybe doesn’t realise it.
@molgrips - be careful chucking around comments like that. I'm AS but very empathetic and open minded, so I don't particularly like being bracketed with behaviour like that when it's a broad spectrum. It could be that ninfan's twuntery and wilful ignorance is a result of being on the spectrum, or it's just from being someone with little to no empathy and no desire to accept alternative points of view.
I’ve no interest in engaging with you further, until you have read the information I’ve provided.
I’ve read it, And in my opinion it doesn’t demonstrate the problems you claim are prevalent.
I’m not going to answer your questions as they have no relevance to the discussion
It’s entirely relevant that a metric used by you and others to demonstrate The existence of institutional racism could also be misused to demonstrate sexism, but isn’t, because nobody thinks for one second that the police stopping mainly males is discriminatory.
In fact it reeks of double standards by self important ‘community spokespeople’ with a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind.
It’s also directly relevant that those same people calling for us to ‘defund the police’ would be the first to complain that the police were not investigating and preventing crimes committed against Black people.
(You may recall that that was one of the criticisms of the Macpherson report you relied on earlier)
The sense that you don’t Really want to discuss those things because they don’t fit your agenda is palpable
... t’s just from being someone with little to no empathy and no desire to accept alternative points of view.
This, I think.
Until the 12th these books from Cambridge Press are free to read
Oo, that's good - thank you! 🙂
little to no empathy and no desire to accept alternative points of view.
Im perfectly happy to accept different points of view
I’m just not prepared to accept Bullshit accusations of racism that aren’t supported by the data or facts.
See, for example, the Utterly false claims made about the police treatment of Ms Williams above.
I’ve no interest in engaging with you further, until you have read the information I’ve provided.
+1 I've no interest of conversing with someone who so overtly protecting themselves from from becoming not racist by not willing to learn. What an abhorrent trait.
not willing to learn
show me some data & facts supporting your point then.
You're using your own argument against yourself. Focusing on one incident and extrapolating that out to form an argument for the issue as a whole. That's how you're not accepting other peoples points of view as they're looking at it from a macro position, not micro. One incident does not prove the hypothesis, but thousands of micro-interactions over time do, not all of them make the news or are recorded.
Focusing on one incident
They are the ones posting them here as ‘proof’ of racism.
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
They are the ones posting them here as ‘proof’ of racism.
And you then regurgitate your opinion on them ad infintum, regardless of how the discussion is evolving
extraordinary claims
And therein lies the point, they aren't - they are everyday normality for some people, the majority of whom are Black or BAME.
And you'll refute that or ask for more evidence because you are not willing to put in the effort to discover this simple element of truth for yourself.
Ninfan, you've read both The MacPherson Report (29 pages of a detailed legal jargon) and my open letter?
To form an opinion which dismisses them I presume you have cross referenced them. I'd be interested to hear your opinion. Did you find the chapter of SPSO legislation I referred to in my letter and can you comment on its impact on the investigation of public agencies?
What about legal aid? And why is it not available for human rights or public law cases?
If being a white woman qualifies me to offer an opinion on sexism within the force then I shall offer one. I'm not going to look up statistics for the amount of women in the force but I think we can accept that it's considerably less than men. Why do so few women join?
Is it because it's a predominantly male institution?
Does that in turn then mean that its difficult for women to progress?
I'm aware that Cressida Dick is now Commissioner so that shows progress for women.
Was that not the answer you were fishing for?
Ok, so a predominantly white male force stops all males more than females. Why is that? I could throw data at you which demonstrates that men are inherently more violent and criminal but that would not give you a true picture, would it? No, because there are other issues at play. We can't use the socioeconomical argument as female single parents are worse off than single white males.
*Edit Sorry for the abrupt ending, I don't wish to derail the thread and discuss sexism however if you wish to start another thread I'll do my homework so that I can give an appropriate answer.
PS, I'm also neurodiverse (diagnosed autism) with Savant syndrome
I don't usually engage with these threads as I start to despair about humanity. I'm out, see you all in a thread about farts
I could throw data at you which demonstrates that men are inherently more violent and criminal but that would not give you a true picture, would it? No, because there are other issues at play.
Regardless of the issues at play, it would make stopping proportionately more men than women entirely sensible & proportionate - therefore not, in my opinion, (or, I would contend, the opinion of the majority of people) discriminatory.
Anyone reminded of the muppet that used to derail gun ownership threads by talking about using one’s car as a lethal weapon? Can’t quite remember who it was.
I know you mean well but this is waffle:
Systemic and institutional racism are insidious and unless you are the victim of it, it is very difficult to see, yet it affects every aspect of life.
Biased Anecdotical evidence + gatekeeping.
It’s not an area which has been studied in detail, I’d say that was because of racism and we don’t want to recognise the damage we’re doing.
Circular argument?
Perhaps you don’t want see it because you would then have to recognise your own privilege, and that will further expose your own fragility.
Ad hominem and circular argument all in one.
There’s been no study of the police to determine the extent of racism in the force and how it is applied to their daily duties. Yet, we can see through a vast amount of individual cases that it does exist and that it is recognised by government agencies and independent institutions.
This reads as an assessment of discrete events indicate the existence of a trend(institutional racism), however parameters to quantify this have not been established. On a side note there are studies somewhat related to this(US), and how what cops see everyday may override any bias training (even if the police is non-white).
One incident does not prove the hypothesis, but thousands of micro-interactions over time do, not all of them make the news or are recorded.
That's not how it works. Correlation does not equal causation.
Can’t quite remember who it was.
Proved right wasn’t I? Ban guns, terrorists use cars instead.
Still, how does that Attempt at an ad hominem attack bear relevance to alleged police racism darcy? Or are you just devoid of any decent argument to put forth in favour of the allegation it exists?
Thing is as a copper you’re on a hiding to nothing.
If the description says black, 5’9, 30-40, male. That’s who you’ve got to look for. Not worth your time looking for 4’ ginger dwarf is it?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t..
Baboonz, you've cherry picked random quotes from various people and placed them out of context whilst dismissing opinion and hard evidence such as the MacPherson Report and articles.
Ninfan, whilst white males are stopped more than white females, it's more likely because the police have a witness or concrete evidence that they have committed a crime. Such as a description of hair colour, build and clothing. Black males are more likely to be stopped, because of racial profiling and white people find it hard to describe discerning features. Are you suggesting that a predominantly male institution is discriminatory towards males?
As I've asked before, if you wish to discuss sexism please start another thread as it's not relevant to a discussion on racism.
To paraphrase Scott Woods "Racism is more than just hate, it's apathy, disinterest, ignorance, power and privilege." It can also be applied to other forms of discrimination such as sexism.
I’m out, see you all in a thread about farts
🤣
Mrlebowski, how about build? Heavy or athletic?
Hair? Short, weave, natural or dreadlocks?
Nose? Broad or narrow?
Piercings?
Tattoos?
Gait?
I had the police at my door once, as there'd been a break in in a neighbouring town, the police had my partners address as he had to register weekly with the police as part of immigration control. They were there purely because he is black and that was the only description they had. If the description they had was of a white male would they then go around every white male in the county?
That’s not how it works. Correlation does not equal causation.
Tagging back in to cover this very selective point from baboonz. I wasn't on about causation, I was actually reffering to correlation and ninfans reluctance to accept it. If you accept that there is a correlation you can then start looking at the root cause of the problem and then put steps in place to address it.
Feel free to start chucking those highly amusing graphs from Reddit about correlations as i'm sure they're coming soon
This one might be a bit to complicated for some of the current posters on this thread but here you go.
When he was about 15 my brother in law was coming home from school with a group of friends who were kicking an old saucepan up the street using it as a surrogate football. One of the other kids kicked the saucepan and it hit a car. Unsurprisingly the owner came out of his house to reprimand the kids.
The owner then complained to the school. He could identify the kids collectively because they were wearing school blazers, though not individually other than that one of the kids was black.
There was only one black kid of that age group in the school. So my BIL gets called into the headmasters office and punished for the actions of another kid because he was the only one present who was identifiable. His mum went down to the school to try and explain to how screwed up this was but the school could see nothing wrong.